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Pakistan's struggle to rein in religious seminaries!

Why don't we trust the parents to decide what level of religious education is extreme for their child?
Because they are the ones who send their children to extremist madrassas.
What is your basis for concluding that "Muslims won't mind it"?
The Quran is one of the most basic parts of Islam - no sect and no group denies that, therefore no Muslim would mind their children studying it any more than they mind Islamiyat.
Why not make it so that people have to opt IN instead of OUT?
Because the idea is to make it an integral part of the national curriculum. Just like Citizenship or whatever they call it nowadays in many Western countries.
 
What you said was true perhaps few years ago.

Pakistani society like any other group of 200+ million people is not made of stone or wood.

They too have realized that Mullahs are not helping and thus willing to uproot this evil.

The idea is for the thinking heads aka intellectuals to take the lead now and steer the masses in the direction of good global citizenship, and self awareness.

I say this because many intellectuals (perhaps including you and I) could be stuck in the past but the society has moved on.

peace


Fauj Historian sahab you seem to be on another planet Pakistani society is much religionized than you can ever imagine ... Ap shadid ghalat fehmi ka shikar hain .. Intellectuals only a handful have survived the targeted attacks they are like sitting batakhain any min their time can be over
 
Because they are the ones who send their children to extremist madrassas.

The Quran is one of the most basic parts of Islam - no sect and no group denies that, therefore no Muslim would mind their children studying it any more than they mind Islamiyat.

Because the idea is to make it an integral part of the national curriculum. Just like Citizenship or whatever they call it nowadays in many Western countries.

So you do not trust the parents, you assume that no Muslim can object to Quran being forced into schools and the idea to "make it part of the curriculum" was foisted by the ulemas on Pakistani school children long ago, and has been a spectacular failure.

In my view you are wrong on all counts.

You really should understand the OP here:

School curriculum in Pakistan distorts views on terrorism, claims report
 
Fauj Historian sahab you seem to be on another planet Pakistani society is much religionized than you can ever imagine ... Ap shadid ghalat fehmi ka shikar hain .. Intellectuals only a handful have survived the targeted attacks they are like sitting batakhain any min their time can be over
OK
 
Nothing in the Constitution gives Madrassas any veto, and neither does the Quran say anything about having madrassas.
I'm not disputing this. I'm simply pointing out what is happening.

Abandoning Islam will actually result in the mullahs having a field day - they'll have more ammunition and the state will lose whatever political control it has over the political mullahs. (Maulana Fazlur Rehman, for example, would start spewing even more venom than he already does. As of now he's pro-establishment and all the venom is directed at political opposition. The same is true for most of the other political mullahs)
Sure, but won't the mullahs then lose the control they exert over the state? They would no longer be able to declare democracy illegal if it clashes with their judgment of what Islam demands, yes?

What's needed is a slow, systematic clean up to evict all extremist mullahs from the political system, and replacing them with moderate scholars who discourage sectarianism, promote unity and can very effectively counter extremism.
Are you confident "moderate scholars" would remain "moderate" once they tasted power? Zia was the most "moderate" of men, but once he had his hands on the levers he changed completely, yes?

Non-Muslims would have the option to opt out from religious studies.
Will Muslims be able to convert from Islam to avoid religious studies? As I understand it, for "administrative" reasons you currently can't change your religion from "Muslim" in Pakistan.
 
Come and try it your self this will fail at maximum you would manage to register them and monitor who comes and goes nothing more than that. What actually should be done is first schools developed and free education is given in schools than religious education is increased. When a child reached third grade he or she should be able to recite Quran properly and in third class Arabic language should be introduced. Also Islamiyat course increased and after 5 classes a child should be offered to do Hifz and this Hifz should be done in schools and in 9th and 10th grade Quran should be taught with translation and also Islamiyat. In 11th and 12th one Tafseer and books of Hadees should be taught.

Brilliant suggestion.. Forward this to you HRD/Education ministry..
 
Sure, but won't the mullahs then lose the control they exert over the state? They would no longer be able to declare democracy illegal if it clashes with their judgment of what Islam demands, yes?
Actually no. Firstly, the mullahs don't have any direct control over the state. They can only influence decision making a little through their followers and limited participation in the assemblies etc.

It'd work the other way around. The major religious parties that currently support democracy because they're part of the system will oppose it if it's secularized. And they would still be able to declare democracy illegal, the only difference would be that we'd have even the more mainstream religious parties doing so. We can't stop them from declaring things, not without killing them.
Are you confident "moderate scholars" would remain "moderate" once they tasted power?
Definitely. They will never taste ''power'' in the first place. The only ''power'' scholars have, even now, is through their followers, most of which they would lose if they decided to take a 180 degree turn.
Zia was the most "moderate" of men, but once he had his hands on the levers he changed completely, yes?
I'm not sure what you think the system is in Pakistan, but the scholars or mullahs never have any direct power like Zia ul Haq did. Not even close. At most the religious parties make up a few percent of the electorate and this gives them some seats in the assemblies. They can also influence legislation through the CII, but no one takes it seriously.

Will Muslims be able to convert from Islam to avoid religious studies?
Yes. In Islam, apostasy is not punishable. But don't expect it to be encouraged.
Apostasy is Punishable by Death - Javed Ahmad Ghamidi

If the point was to avoid religious studies, simply talking to a teacher or the school administration would work.

So you do not trust the parents, you assume that no Muslim can object to Quran being forced into schools and the idea to "make it part of the curriculum" was foisted by the ulemas on Pakistani school children long ago, and has been a spectacular failure.
You need to put things into perspective. Half the parents you're talking about would rather have their kids study in a madrassa for a few hours and work or beg on the streets for the rest of the time than spend too long in school.

The idea of making ''it'' part of the curriculum in this way was never foisted by the ulema. There are major fundamental differences in my suggestion and theirs.
In my view you are wrong on all counts.
Likewise.
Completely irrelevant. Nowhere does it speak of religious education. Political views being ''distorted'' has nothing to do with this topic.
 
Actually no. Firstly, the mullahs don't have any direct control over the state. They can only influence decision making a little through their followers and limited participation in the assemblies etc.

It'd work the other way around. The major religious parties that currently support democracy because they're part of the system will oppose it if it's secularized. And they would still be able to declare democracy illegal, the only difference would be that we'd have even the more mainstream religious parties doing so. We can't stop them from declaring things, not without killing them.

Definitely. They will never taste ''power'' in the first place. The only ''power'' scholars have, even now, is through their followers, most of which they would lose if they decided to take a 180 degree turn.

I'm not sure what you think the system is in Pakistan, but the scholars or mullahs never have any direct power like Zia ul Haq did. Not even close. At most the religious parties make up a few percent of the electorate and this gives them some seats in the assemblies. They can also influence legislation through the CII, but no one takes it seriously.


Yes. In Islam, apostasy is not punishable. But don't expect it to be encouraged.
Apostasy is Punishable by Death - Javed Ahmad Ghamidi

If the point was to avoid religious studies, simply talking to a teacher or the school administration would work.


You need to put things into perspective. Half the parents you're talking about would rather have their kids study in a madrassa for a few hours and work or beg on the streets for the rest of the time than spend too long in school.

The idea of making ''it'' part of the curriculum in this way was never foisted by the ulema. There are major fundamental differences in my suggestion and theirs.

Likewise.

Completely irrelevant. Nowhere does it speak of religious education. Political views being ''distorted'' has nothing to do with this topic.
Apostasy is punishable by death and find some one better than Ghamidi
 
Apostasy is punishable by death and find some one better than Ghamidi
His arguments are well researched and reasoned. It's convenient, it'll take too long for me to compile all the evidences and type an argument up.

But if you're so sure, why don't you try to refute Ghamdi sahib's argument by quoting his article and arguing against it?
 
His arguments are well researched and reasoned. It's convenient, it'll take too long for me to compile all the evidences and type an argument up.

But if you're so sure, why don't you try to refute Ghamdi sahib's argument by quoting his article and arguing against it?
Their are clear Ahadees on this issue and well researched I heard this crap he speaks typical crap to make certain people happy. He has dozen time changed his views from Hijab to other issues for 3 months he says one thing than for next 3 he comes up with different and again changes view after few months.
 
Why is it shocking? A majority of society supports these radical Mullahs and what they say.
The Mullahs are the passage to heaven for many Pakistanis.. consciously or sub-consciously. Where Christianity has one pope, Islam has hundreds of Thousands.

Their are clear Ahadees on this issue and well researched I heard this crap he speaks typical crap to make certain people happy. He has dozen time changed his views from Hijab to other issues for 3 months he says one thing than for next 3 he comes up with different and again changes view after few months.
Copy paste is not research.
 
Their are clear Ahadees on this issue
The article refutes your assertions.
I heard this crap he speaks typical crap to make certain people happy. He has dozen time changed his views from Hijab to other issues for 3 months he says one thing than for next 3 he comes up with different and again changes view after few months.
As long as he has evidence and a logical argument you can't refute, his previous views don't matter. And if he did change them, I'd like you to actually quote when he changed his views to prove your accusation.
 
The article refutes your assertions.

As long as he has evidence and a logical argument you can't refute, his previous views don't matter. And if he did change them, I'd like you to actually quote when he changed his views to prove your accusation.
The article is based on lies and distorted history. He is full of this history apostates were given death punishment both in life of PROPHET SAW and 4 Caliphs.
 
The Mullahs are the passage to heaven for many Pakistanis.. consciously or sub-consciously. Where Christianity has one pope, Islam has hundreds of Thousands.


Copy paste is not research.
Well copy pasting Ahadees and Ayats is great research if people can't answer copy paste because they know its truth than I can do nothing about that.
 

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