Pakistan's Special Operations Forces: SSG | SSGN | SSW | SOW | SOG

[PanzerKiel]

I both knows that these SSG didn't just took their gear off for photoshoot, they weren't even wearing them during the operation.

Dear, if you know that, then that makes you the luckiest guy around. And i seriously envy you.

But why is that we never see SSG in proper gear whether its in urban areas or Mountains ?

I take that as a complement really ..means that they got strict rules on getting pics during active operations. Were a bit laxed recently, now its stricter.

many time Police are shot from close range and yet they survive only because of their better armor vest.

I hope you are not suggesting that SSG guys who are killed ARE THE ONLY ONES who have have been shot at. If SSG were not wearing proper equipment, with the operations they have been doing, their casualties would have enormous. SSG guys are much more professional than the regular army (several factors in play here, not the fault of regular army, its officers or soldiers though).....and being profession means SSG has got zero tolerance on lack of training, equipment, its procurement and its use during play.

Fair enough but there are instances where you have to gear some heavy gear, specially in hostage situations where you have to bust the door open to face/direct enemy fire, if you send the men you see in picture to breach, Allah reham kare then.

As you said....these are not the men you use for breeching. These are regular SF guys from a regular SF unit, not hostage rescuers.

If you were in a mountainous area for Operation than kneeling without pads is not an option, if you did that i would say you are not so smart (sorry for that), because try kneeling on hard rocks or stone, for 5 mins and than you are in no condition to than go in fights.

As you say, i might not be so smart, but then, atleast i am alive and dispatched some scum to hell as well. I survived for 34 months in mountains without knee pads....didnt affect me at all. On this, you should atleast give some credit to the man on the ground, who is in active contact, let him choose his loadout, he is the best judge of what to wear and what not to wear.....he knows very well that a small mistake on his part will be paid by his own very blood. I think its a good bargain.

I would surely appreciate that, Plus chalo at least you agree with my point that eye glasses can save them from bad injuries, and give protection against pellets and fragments.

As i said, whenever there is a need, or the threat assessment requires it, SSG guys do wear it.

Your comparing Guerilla fighters against Tier 1 Commandos who despite operating in foreign land gave the insurgents a whooping due to superior gear and tactics whilst SSG is in a pickle over local insurgents does not make our case strong we need dire improvements in both tactics and gear.

...yeah, despite operating in foreign land, with the C4ISTAR assets helping you, all airpower you could muster, with rotary support to help you hump from one place to another, no long walks....

 

[RescueRanger]

Dear, if you know that, then that makes you the luckiest guy around. And i seriously envy you.

I take that as a complement really ..means that they got strict rules on getting pics during active operations. Were a bit laxed recently, now its stricter.


I hope you are not suggesting that SSG guys who are killed ARE THE ONLY ONES who have have been shot at. If SSG were not wearing proper equipment, with the operations they have been doing, their casualties would have enormous. SSG guys are much more professional than the regular army (several factors in play here, not the fault of regular army, its officers or soldiers though).....and being profession means SSG has got zero tolerance on lack of training, equipment, its procurement and its use during play.


As you said....these are not the men you use for breeching. These are regular SF guys from a regular SF unit, not hostage rescuers.

As you say, i might not be so smart, but then, atleast i am alive and dispatched some scum to hell as well. On this, you should atleast give some credit to the man on the ground, who is in active contact, let him choose his loadout, he is the best judge of what to wear and what not to wear.....he knows very well that a small mistake on his part will be paid by his own very blood. I think its a good bargain.



As i said, whenever there is a need, or the threat assessment requires it, SSG guys do wear it.


...yeah, despite operating in foreign land, with the C4ISTAR assets helping you, all airpower you could muster, with rotary support to help you hump from one place to another, no long walks....

Sir, is ney nahi sun na.

 

[Goritoes]

Dear, if you know that, then that makes you the luckiest guy around. And i seriously envy you.

If you just examine the Picture from a neutral POV than you would come to the same conclusion, let me explain this here a little. Did you notice the soldiers are literally taking off their helmets during the picture was taken ? So are you telling me that after Operation they went to planning table, drop half the gear there, came back to the dead bodies and then taking off their helmets ?

I take that as a complement really ..means that they got strict rules on getting pics during active operations. Were a bit laxed recently, now its stricter.

Well the pics we have is enough to upset Pakistani's, that their " Best of the best " SF literally geared like some Afghan district police.

If SSG were not wearing proper equipment, with the operations they have been doing, their casualties would have enormous.

This is literally my entire Argument, SSG lost personnel is almost every operation they conducted which was covered in media. Many Operations where they did not lose any men so I should say they did something right there, but if you just study last 10 SSG Operations which were covered by Media you can see the death rate.

As you said....these are not the men you use for breeching. These are regular SF guys from a regular SF unit, not hostage rescuers.

That was an example, If this is the best our SF can gear up for a Operation where Terrorists are holding up in a building than yes I can see why death rate is high in SSG.

As you say, i might not be so smart, but then, atleast i am alive and dispatched some scum to hell as well. On this, you should atleast give some credit to the man on the ground, who is in active contact, let him choose his loadout, he is the best judge of what to wear and what not to wear.....he knows very well that a small mistake on his part will be paid by his own very blood. I think its a good bargain.

Good for you, you are alive but we lose 2-3 SSG in last operation in CTD, I think SSG gear should be regulated and some protective gear must be made mandatory for Operations. But I think we are just going in circles as you don't see things the way I do, and I don't find your arguments in favor of SSG reasonable or satisfactory nor it explain the high death ration of SSG.

As i said, whenever there is a need, or the threat assessment requires it, SSG guys do wear it.

If the source is " Trust me bro " than ok.

My conclusion to this is that I believe SSG high death rate has a lot to do with their poor training/Poor Gear/ and Probably lack or will to fight. I have not hear any reasonable justification for high death rate, instead different members who also happen to be claiming to be Active Army or former soldiers are giving me different reasons, some says we can not afford it, some say we have the gears but they don't wear for photo ops, some say they need light gear etc The confusion among the people's response perfectly explain why people should analyze everything from every angle and even question the performance of any and every institution. Most of the members here are extremely bias and that makes them blind over the issues that is plaguing the Army or SF units . So I am out until someone comes with a better justification or explanation, but until then we will just wait until the next time TTP take over a building and we send SSG, and we lose few more, than the whole cycle is repeat. Show anger, send condolence, troll people who raise questions, repeat.

 

[RescueRanger]

If you just examine the Picture from a neutral POV than you would come to the same conclusion, let me explain this here a little. Did you notice the soldiers are literally taking off their helmets during the picture was taken ? So are you telling me that after Operation they went to planning table, drop half the gear there, came back to the dead bodies and then taking off their helmets ?


Well the pics we have is enough to upset Pakistani's, that their " Best of the best " SF literally geared like some Afghan district police.


This is literally my entire Argument, SSG lost personnel is almost every operation they conducted which was covered in media. Many Operations where they did not lose any men so I should say they did something right there, but if you just study last 10 SSG Operations which were covered by Media you can see the death rate.

That was an example, If this is the best our SF can gear up for a Operation where Terrorists are holding up in a building than yes I can see why death rate is high in SSG.


Good for you, you are alive but we lose 2-3 SSG in last operation in CTD, I think SSG gear should be regulated and some protective gear must be made mandatory for Operations. But I think we are just going in circles as you don't see things the way I do, and I don't find your arguments in favor of SSG reasonable or satisfactory nor it explain the high death ration of SSG.


If the source is " Trust me bro " than ok.

My conclusion to this is that I believe SSG high death rate has a lot to do with their poor training/Poor Gear/ and Probably lack or will to fight. I have not hear any reasonable justification for high death rate, instead different members who also happen to be claiming to be Active Army or former soldiers are giving me different reasons, some says we can not afford it, some say we have the gears but they don't wear for photo ops, some say they need light gear etc The confusion among the people's response perfectly explain why people should analyze everything from every angle and even question the performance of any and every institution. Most of the members here are extremely bias and that makes them blind over the issues that is plaguing the Army or SF units . So I am out until someone comes with a better justification or explanation, but until then we will just wait until the next time TTP take over a building and we send SSG, and we lose few more, than the whole cycle is repeat. Show anger, send condolence, troll people who raise questions, repeat.

Please be a little respectful. You’ve said your piece but keep banging on the same drum.

Please cite your sources about high mortality rates.

Personally, you have yet provided any empirical or photographic evidence to support your hypothesis about l:

1. Poor equipment
2. High mortality rates

Until you can provide this, you are just typing hyperbole. Several people have been patient enough to inform you, write detailed posts, and even explain the reasons why.

If you don’t want to listen, just agree to disagree and move on.

Acha one last thing, if you are interested, PM me your plans for 2023, come down to Islamabad around July.

I’ll take you to a firing range with some buddies who are active service SSG, you can put your complaints to them in person.

 

[Goritoes]

Please be a little respectful. You’ve said your piece but keep banging on the same drum.

Please cite your sources about high mortality rates.

Personally, you have yet provided any empirical or photographic evidence to support your hypothesis about l:

1. Poor equipment
2. High mortality rates

Until you can provide this, you are just typing hyperbole. Several people have been patient enough to inform you, write detailed posts, and even explain the reasons why.

If you don’t want to listen, just agree to disagree and move on.

Acha one last thing, if you are interested, PM me your plans for 2023, come down to Islamabad around July.

I’ll take you to a firing range with some buddies who are active service SSG, you can put your complaints to them in person.

No need to go in circles...

-CTD Operation
-Operation Janbaaz (GHQ Attack)
-PNS Mehran Attack (SSGN)
-Lal Masjid Operation

I can keep editing the list, where SSG lost men.

Several people have been patient enough to inform you, write detailed posts, and even explain the reasons why.

I am not bound to accept their reasons or explanations, this is not how things work in real life my friend. I don't find yours or other members reasons acceptable for the death rates so I counter them, but as I said I already concluded my last post by saying we will be discussing this again very soon, cause I am sure TTP will attack again, TTP will take hostage or a building, SSG will be called and we will lose more SSG, we will show our anger , our condolence, troll those who question, and than repeat.

 

[RescueRanger]

No need to go in circles...

-CTD Operation
-Operation Janbaaz (GHQ Attack)
-PNS Mehran Attack (SSGN)
-Lal Masjid Operation

I can keep editing the list, where SSG lost men.


I am not bound to accept their reasons or explanations, this is not how things work in real life my friend. I don't find yours or other members reasons acceptable for the death rates so I counter them, but as I said I already concluded my last post by saying we will be discussing this again very soon, cause I am sure TTP will attack again, TTP will take hostage or a building, SSG will be called and we will lose more SSG, we will show our anger , our condolence, troll those who question, and than repeat.

Shame, chalo, my offer still stands. If you change your mind, PM me.

 

[PanzerKiel]

My conclusion to this is that I believe SSG high death rate has a lot to do with their poor training/Poor Gear/ and Probably lack or will to fight.

You summed it up right. Dot on target.

Shame, chalo, my offer still stands. If you change your mind, PM me.

I'm in... Lolz

 

[RescueRanger]

You summed it up right. Dot on target.


I'm in... Lolz

Sir you are most welcome anytime

 

[Goritoes]

Shame, chalo, my offer still stands. If you change your mind, PM me.

You really want me to contact you when I visit Pakistan, and come to Islamabad so you can take me to a shooting range ? wow that's generous offer but I choose Life Honestly after seeing the Haal of Journalists like Arshad Sharif , Imran Riaz Khan and many others, kids who make tiktokers, you really think anyone who abuse Army 24/7 would trust someone with Army background ? In normal circumstance I would've taken your offer but in current situation, Pakistani's fear Army more than they fear TTP/India/US/Dajjal combined.

Shame, chalo, my offer still stands. If you change your mind, PM me.

Sir ab is age mai apni p0rn video banwane ka shock nai hai Kabhi Tampa FL ayen tu zaroor mile ga, Yahan na apki aur na meri chale gi. Law and order exists here

 

[RescueRanger]

You really want me to contact you when I visit Pakistan, and come to Islamabad so you can take me to a shooting range ? wow that's generous offer but I choose Life Honestly after seeing the Haal of Journalists like Arshad Sharif , Imran Riaz Khan and many others, kids who make tiktokers, you really think anyone who abuse Army 24/7 would trust someone with Army background ? In normal circumstance I would've taken your offer but in current situation, Pakistani's fear Army more than they fear TTP/India/US/Dajjal combined.


Sir ab is age mai apni p0rn video banwane ka shock nai hai Kabhi Tampa FL ayen tu zaroor mile ga, Yahan na apki aur na meri chale gi. Law and order exists here

Yar I had no mala fide. It was a genuine offer.

 

[blain2]

There is no such intentions, I don't want protective gear for SSG so they can look cool like Videos games, I want them to wear better gear so they don't lose their lives. I explained @RescueRanger about the common sense of using Protective Glasses in Operations which are conducted in dry muddy environment.


So are you telling me that SSG can not even afford to equipped a small group (lets say Al-zarrar) ? And what about Operations like the recent CTD station ? we lost 2-3 SSG personnel there, We could argue over the Air support in the mountains or valleys of FATA but SSG has a consistent poor performance in the rescue missions, they lose men in many such operations. Which makes me wonder if they even study their own tactics or Past Operations and where did they go wrong ? cause everybody does.


I am not talking about regular Army, SSG ka yeh Haal hai tu Regular Army tu Allah Hafiz hai, We are still sending our soldiers in death trap Toyota's just to die. Those are such horrible cars that even a injured Soldier can't take cover behind it, we send them with not a single heavy armored vehicle. You know Why American's don't die in Operations, its because they value their soldiers, they know if they lose men in battle or operations there will be a inquiry against the commander and than he will have to go to congress to answer and explain, remember Bengazi ? How many time our Army regular or SSG failed and how many court of inquiries were sat against them? None ZERO. And as for MRAP's we can not afford them where the whole Military budget is going ? why are paying a lot of money to talentless captains and major's ? every Captain aur Major drive 10-15 Lac car and lives in a 240-600 Gaz house in Cantonments, why ? cut that money and put it towards better stuff so at least soldiers have equal chance to fight. If we can not protect our soldiers who are in front line and dying then Talaa laga do Army ko bhai. Our Army to this date rely on numbers thanks to large Pakistani population and poor people who join Army just so they have stable income and lots of incentives, when this how things work than yes I expect more and more soldiers dying.


Again, I am talking about SSG operations urban areas, like the recent CTD station one. You are describing the large scale operations done by regular Army.


So you want to tell me that we can not properly equipped an elite unit of lets say few hundred SSG ? The Turkish soldier in the front, look at the soldiers in same pics who is standing behind him, all of them have same gear. Our SSG, if you dig up Pictures here on PDF you will notice half the time they are not even wearing helmets in Operations, no proper vest and those who are wearing looks so out of the place, like when you give a Fat man sherwani to a skinny guy. Every Picture of SSG after/in/before Operation suggests their poor condition, and I believe that is why they lose men in almost every fight. If our soldiers have better not fancy but proper protective gear, even if they are shot they might survive.

View attachment 908745
Just look at the red circles, bhai is this how a SF unit suppose to gear up ? even BB gun can blind half of them if shot properly, no knee or elbow pads, no glasses for eye protection even though just look at the surrounding, One heavy wind gush and they will have bunch of mud in their eyes than they won't be able to see let alone focus on enemy fire, yaar Mujh jaise Civilian jis aaj tak real gun nai uthai can think of that common sense but SSG can't? Look at three soldiers sitting in front, and check out the right one, his helmet doesn't even fit his head, if he runs to take cover half of the time he will be holding his helmet. I've seen Police better equipped than SSG, and this is not in some valley or behind enemy lines, this is within a Cant, they have time to plan and gear and yet this is what they came up with. I believe SSG has no will or mood to go into these Operations, they are just forced to go and fight because regular Army just chicken out from almost every Operation these days.


I only have one wish list, you all can insult me all you want, make fun of me not having any idea about SSG or SF operations, but my only wish list is that I want SSG to go into operations and they kill every last scumbag, and they all come out alive proud and successful, and ready to take on other Terrorists.

I don't insult people and get personal so you don't have to worry about that.

There are a lot of holes in the above post and unfortunately most of them come back to funding.

Equipping SSG is not a job that is limited to, as you suggest:

not properly equipped an elite unit of lets say few hundred SSG

SSG is a division sized formation. That equates to a table of organization and equipment for approximately 12-14000 troops. You cannot buy one set of gear either as within the SSG there are specialized companies that require built for purpose equipment based on their operational requirements. Since the founding of SSG, it has been one of the most expensive units to fund.

You talk about loose helmets etc, keep in mind that most of these helmets are pass through from MNNA stocks in the US. In the US, each troop is fitted for size etc. and appropriate levels of padding etc. is added to ensure proper fit. We get no such luxury with these hand me downs unless you pay for such equipment.
Our local industry is still not producing products of a quality that meet international standards. Protective eye gear and knee/elbow pads are all luxuries and the latter will eventually become available in due time when uniforms are replaced, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that special forces really need them. If our boys cannot handle lying prone or kneeling without pads on rough terrain then they are in the wrong line of work. At Siachen, we equip our troops with eye protection and other gear because it is an absolute necessity. In the operations in FATA etc., these are not hard requirements.

In the CTD operation, I don't know the details of what caused the 2 SSG casualties (3rd one was one of the injured hostages) but such casualties are looked into and lessons learned. One key give-away was that this operation was conducted in broad daylight (2 p.m.) which is not the best time for such dynamic entry missions. Similar to this, we lost 7-8 operators at Lal Masjid since the operation was conducted in broad daylight due to reasons unknown to me. For SSG, night is the time that allows the highest chance of success but in both cases, I believe due to the emerging situation, the SSG did not have this luxury. Despite this, they killed 25+ combatants armed heavily with equipment from the CTD kote.

You know Why American's don't die in Operations, its because they value their soldiers, they know if they lose men in battle or operations there will be a inquiry against the commander and than he will have to go to congress to answer and explain, remember Bengazi ? How many time our Army regular or SSG failed and how many court of inquiries were sat against them? None ZERO.

That isn't entirely true. Internal briefings/de-briefings happen after each such mission. Not everything is put out in the open. The ONLY reason Benghazi became an open issue is because it was politicized by the Republicans against Hillary Clinton's State Department to get political mileage. Otherwise US special forces operations and their planning, execution and de-briefs are all held in secrecy and made available on a need to know basis. Remember the 2011 shooting down of the Chinook that took the lives of 17 SEALs? The details of that remain confidential.

This is not to say mistakes don't happen with special operations missions in Pakistan. Plenty have been and I know this up close. However, I cannot say that the same does not apply to others including in the first world.

We can equip our armed forces better when we have more funding available. We are broke and this should be well understood by people here.

By the way, just for fun, I am posting a picture of Saudi Special Forces during operations (real combat in Yemen). This is a military that is funded with $68B/year compared to our paltry $10B. However what this shows is when in the field, troops wear, do things that are practical for them:

 

[CLUMSY]

There is no such intentions, I don't want protective gear for SSG so they can look cool like Videos games, I want them to wear better gear so they don't lose their lives. I explained @RescueRanger about the common sense of using Protective Glasses in Operations which are conducted in dry muddy environment.


So are you telling me that SSG can not even afford to equipped a small group (lets say Al-zarrar) ? And what about Operations like the recent CTD station ? we lost 2-3 SSG personnel there, We could argue over the Air support in the mountains or valleys of FATA but SSG has a consistent poor performance in the rescue missions, they lose men in many such operations. Which makes me wonder if they even study their own tactics or Past Operations and where did they go wrong ? cause everybody does.


I am not talking about regular Army, SSG ka yeh Haal hai tu Regular Army tu Allah Hafiz hai, We are still sending our soldiers in death trap Toyota's just to die. Those are such horrible cars that even a injured Soldier can't take cover behind it, we send them with not a single heavy armored vehicle. You know Why American's don't die in Operations, its because they value their soldiers, they know if they lose men in battle or operations there will be a inquiry against the commander and than he will have to go to congress to answer and explain, remember Bengazi ? How many time our Army regular or SSG failed and how many court of inquiries were sat against them? None ZERO. And as for MRAP's we can not afford them where the whole Military budget is going ? why are paying a lot of money to talentless captains and major's ? every Captain aur Major drive 10-15 Lac car and lives in a 240-600 Gaz house in Cantonments, why ? cut that money and put it towards better stuff so at least soldiers have equal chance to fight. If we can not protect our soldiers who are in front line and dying then Talaa laga do Army ko bhai. Our Army to this date rely on numbers thanks to large Pakistani population and poor people who join Army just so they have stable income and lots of incentives, when this how things work than yes I expect more and more soldiers dying.


Again, I am talking about SSG operations urban areas, like the recent CTD station one. You are describing the large scale operations done by regular Army.


So you want to tell me that we can not properly equipped an elite unit of lets say few hundred SSG ? The Turkish soldier in the front, look at the soldiers in same pics who is standing behind him, all of them have same gear. Our SSG, if you dig up Pictures here on PDF you will notice half the time they are not even wearing helmets in Operations, no proper vest and those who are wearing looks so out of the place, like when you give a Fat man sherwani to a skinny guy. Every Picture of SSG after/in/before Operation suggests their poor condition, and I believe that is why they lose men in almost every fight. If our soldiers have better not fancy but proper protective gear, even if they are shot they might survive.

View attachment 908745
Just look at the red circles, bhai is this how a SF unit suppose to gear up ? even BB gun can blind half of them if shot properly, no knee or elbow pads, no glasses for eye protection even though just look at the surrounding, One heavy wind gush and they will have bunch of mud in their eyes than they won't be able to see let alone focus on enemy fire, yaar Mujh jaise Civilian jis aaj tak real gun nai uthai can think of that common sense but SSG can't? Look at three soldiers sitting in front, and check out the right one, his helmet doesn't even fit his head, if he runs to take cover half of the time he will be holding his helmet. I've seen Police better equipped than SSG, and this is not in some valley or behind enemy lines, this is within a Cant, they have time to plan and gear and yet this is what they came up with. I believe SSG has no will or mood to go into these Operations, they are just forced to go and fight because regular Army just chicken out from almost every Operation these days.


I only have one wish list, you all can insult me all you want, make fun of me not having any idea about SSG or SF operations, but my only wish list is that I want SSG to go into operations and they kill every last scumbag, and they all come out alive proud and successful, and ready to take on other Terrorists.

Try wearing knee and elbow pads for more than a hour, those things start getting in the way unless integrated within the BDU itself. They come off too. Too much of a hassle for many imo. Glasses arent really that important either, though comes down to preference. There are more important things

 

[Metal 0-1]

Glasses arent really that important either, though comes down to preference

I love to get all that debris in my eyes.

Cuz f*** muh life

Joke aside, eyepro Is not big deal in recce type missions

 

[CLUMSY]

I love to get all that debris in my eyes.

Cuz f*** muh life

Joke aside, eyepro Is not big deal in recce type missions

eyepro can be a lifesaver definitely, but i dont think it should be mandatory. SF bois should have a decent bit of autonomy imo

 

[Metal 0-1]

eyepro can be a lifesaver definitely, but i dont think it should be mandatory. SF bois should have a decent bit of autonomy imo

Decent? Bro they all the autonomy that's why they like keep their back to fatal funnel.

Breaking the norms my dude

This useless conversation can go on and on.

Do recommend what thread I should post next Manual of Arms or SUT? Kinda confused rn