Featured Pakistan's Shahpar II UAV Unveiled

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Can’t Pakistan approach Turkey for their UAV engines? I am sure Turkey might even share IP with Pakistan allowing these engines to be made locally and scaled up to other projects such a as cruise missiles and more mature drone designs.

Options that Pakistan should consider..
Openly
Turkish chinese drone tech
Chinese drone tech

Behind the curtains
Iranian tech for study purposes and hardware excluding computer/ communication...

Another option is Yemeni Houthis they have some good hardware Iranian and their own

And then we can go as far as dark web

Behind the curtain stuff should be for study purposes and things got using these means should be built upon...

like get a drone study it make the design better, if needed use better propulsion and communication etc..

'king-wings'?

It apparently means longest feather on a bird

 

[JamD]

Pakistan is Turkey’s biggest arms importer. Turkey itself has invited Pakistan on all its marquee projects from the TFX to its next generation submarine programs.

None of these facts say why Turkey would like to build up a direct competitor to its exports. For TFX and submarine programs we can imagine reasons why Turkey would like to collaborate with us - like access to a funding partner to distribute risk, a low-cost production partner.

In fact, Turkey itself has benefited from manufacturing GE engines for the past few decades, so it’s hard to imagine it turning down a Pakistani request to absorb the technology.

Turkey's manufacturing capability is a result of aggressive policy making and implementation over many years, which is something we have not seen in Pakistan.

It depends on some creativity and open mindedness from Pakistan’s part. But I will be extremely surprised if Turkey turns down a Pakistani request.

I would not be surprised if Turkey turns down such a request. I am not saying there isn't a reason Turkey would agree, but at least I cannot think of one.

Not that you would, but I would not consider "relationships" as a reason enough to transfer IP.

 

[Falcon26]

None of these facts say why Turkey would like to build up a direct competitor to its exports. For TFX and submarine programs we can imagine reasons why Turkey would like to collaborate with us - like access to a funding partner to distribute risk, a low-cost production partner.



Turkey's manufacturing capability is a result of aggressive policy making and implementation over many years, which is something we have not seen in Pakistan.



I would not be surprised if Turkey turns down such a request. I am not saying there isn't a reason Turkey would agree, but at least I cannot think of one.

Not that you would, but I would not consider "relationships" as a reason enough to transfer IP.

It is not just about relationships. Turkey is keen on forging a deeper military integration with Pakistan, and transferring some of the IP of its key technologies is one way of achieving that.

Turkey has already transferred the IP of its Milgem program to Pakistan allowing your country to not only manufacture these modern stealth warships in-house but also to own the design rights. So the precedence already exists.

Turkey sees Pakistan as a natural compliment to its military technology development; but Pakistani military planners addicted to quick Chinese fixes haven’t been able to think creatively, apart from the navy. So you’re right in the sense that even if Turkey was willing, the need doesn’t exist with Pakistan.

 

[ACE OF HEARTS]

Pakistan needs to get it's hands on 3D Printing technology

 

[Falcon26]

Options that Pakistan should consider..
Openly
Turkish chinese drone tech
Chinese drone tech

Behind the curtains
Iranian tech for study purposes and hardware excluding computer/ communication...

Another option is Yemeni Houthis they have some good hardware Iranian and their own

And then we can go as far as dark web

Behind the curtain stuff should be for study purposes and things got using these means should be built upon...

like get a drone study it make the design better, if needed use better propulsion and communication etc..

It apparently means longest feather on a bird

Stay away from Iranian products, these are self-glorified arjunk/Tejas type junk. Turkey is a great source for technology transfer as well as China.

Italy is another country. It has already transferred the manufacturing technology of the falco drones to Pakistan.

 

[JamD]

It is not just about relationships. Turkey is keen on forging a deeper military integration with Pakistan, and transferring some of the IP of its key technologies is one of achieving that.
Turkey has already transferred the IP of its Milgem program to Pakistan allowing your country to not only manufacture these modern stealth warships in house but also to own the design rights. So the precedence already exists.

Again I would argue that anything that Turkey has transferred IP for, Turkey has gotten something in return: a reduction of risk, a partner for possible future exports. With IP and manufacturing of IC engines for UAVs, there's nothing Turkey gains by enhancing a competitor. Turkey is NOT collaborating with Pakistan on UAVs, which is why Pakistan is not a possible future partner.

Turkey sees Pakistan as a natural compliment to its military technology development; but Pakistani military planners addicted to quick Chinese fixes haven’t been able to think creatively, apart from the navy.

That I agree with. However, we have been seeing a lot of signs in the PAF of the rude awakening that China is not an unlimited fountain you can just take at will from.

So you’re right in the sense that even if Turkey was willing, the need doesn’t exist with Pakistan.

The need might exist. But the question is what can Pakistan offer?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What reason would Turkey have to share its IP with Pakistan so that Pakistan can compete with Turkey?

For us to get technology IP, we'll need to refrain from exporting that IP. I would put security independence ahead of commercial gains, so I'm fine with that trade-off.

However, we could set-up agreements where we buy or license inputs for the original IP partner. So for example, if our future MALE UAVs use a Turkish designed turboprop, we import the Turkish-made turboprop for all of our exports (or pay a license fee). IMHO, we'll have to make that trade-off to get sensitive technology. To secure their IP, the Turks might prefer to simply set-up and manage the turboprop manufacturing line within Pakistan itself.

It wouldn't surprise me if our best course of getting technology is be like Japan, i.e., unilaterally refrain from exporting arms. To be honest, I wouldn't mind going that route because I think our domestic needs can be large enough to sustain most projects. I think our biggest problem is lack of domestic commitment to the industry (e.g. CH-4 orders) than lack of exports.

Instead of exporting arms, maybe we should export arms services. #MercanaryState

 

[Falcon26]

Again I would argue that anything that Turkey has transferred IP for, Turkey has gotten something in return: a reduction of risk, a partner for possible future exports. With IP and manufacturing of IC engines for UAVs, there's nothing Turkey gains by enhancing a competitor. Turkey is NOT collaborating with Pakistan on UAVs, which is why Pakistan is not a possible future partner.


That I agree with. However, we have been seeing a lot of signs in the PAF of the rude awakening that China is not an unlimited fountain you can just take at will from.


The need might exist. But the question is what can Pakistan offer?

This assumes that Turkey sees such transfer as zero-sum, I don’t think that’s the case. In fact, inking such a deal opens a lot of vistas for Turkish companies. Pakistan is a huge market for cruise missiles and drones, Turkish companies providing the engines for these products puts money back into Turkish pockets to be used for research and development and to fund future programs. Arrangements can be made in terms of licensing etc, but I doubt the Turks will be hostile to exploring this route.

I will go back to the GE arrangement, Turkey will most certainly not object to embracing similar deal with Pakistan.

Pakistanis have to appreciate the cultural thinking of the countries they deal with. Not every country looks at things the way Pakistanis do, nuance is always important.

For us to get technology IP, we'll need to refrain from exporting that IP. I would put security independence ahead of commercial gains, so I'm fine with that trade-off.

However, we could set-up agreements where we buy or license inputs for the original IP partner. So for example, if our future MALE UAVs use a Turkish designed turboprop, we import the Turkish-made turboprop for all of our exports (or pay a license fee). IMHO, we'll have to make that trade-off to get sensitive technology. To secure their IP, the Turks might prefer to simply set-up and manage the turboprop manufacturing line within Pakistan itself.

It wouldn't surprise me if our best course of getting technology is be like Japan, i.e., unilaterally refrain from exporting arms. To be honest, I wouldn't mind going that route because I think our domestic needs can be large enough to sustain most projects. I think our biggest problem is lack of domestic commitment to the industry (e.g. CH-4 orders) than lack of exports.

Instead of exporting arms, maybe we should export arms services. #MercanaryState

Thanks, this was what I was trying to get at.

The conversation has to start from somewhere, but if Pakistanis shut themselves due to assumptions framed from their perspective, no tangible progress can be made. If Pakistanis had this view back in the 1970s or 1980s, it’s nuclear program would have never seen the light of day lol

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@JamD is right, the Turks (or for that matter Ukraine, South Africa, etc) aren't going to give IP to a potential commercial competitor. I think our best approach is to give up on the commercial side entirely and instead argue our national security imperative. In other words, we give up on exports, but we get all of the technology.

OTOH, we could join Turkish UAV programs as a whole (or Turks join Pakistani ones), and then we basically end up marketing and exporting the same design with workshare, revenue-share, etc. Basically, we end up with consortium situations (which the Turks seem to prefer).

I think, ultimately, the Turks would prefer shared equity consortiums since it distributes risk, investment, and benefits. But I am OK with surrendering some workshare and export benefits for the sake of preserving our national security (by ensuring we get the sensitive IP so that our armed forces can move forward).

 

[Falcon26]

@JamD is right, the Turks (or for that matter Ukraine, South Africa, etc) aren't going to give IP to a potential commercial competitor. I think our best approach is to give up on the commercial side entirely and instead argue our national security imperative. In other words, we give up on exports, but we get all of the technology.

OTOH, we could join Turkish UAV programs as a whole (or Turks join Pakistani ones), and then we basically end up marketing and exporting the same design with workshare, revenue-share, etc. Basically, we end up with consortium situations (which the Turks seem to prefer).

I think, ultimately, the Turks would prefer shared equity consortiums since it distributes risk, investment, and benefits. But I am OK with surrendering some workshare and export benefits for the sake of preserving our national security (by ensuring we get the sensitive IP so that our armed forces can move forward).

Good points, Bilal

If you recall, at some point Turkey invited Pakistan to the Anka program and even proposed manufacturing parts of the drone in Pakistan. For some strange reason, Pakistan has never taken Turkey on this offer.

Apart from the military realm, Pakistan benefits immensely by partnering with Turkey on electric vehicle technology, rail technology and space programs. Turkey will gladly bring Pakistan on board as your country is a huge market of 200-million plus. It’s unfortunate that Pakistan continues to import Suzuki hatchbacks and antiquated railways from overseas when the potential to manufacture at home, and kickstart a dormant economy exists.

 

[Raja Porus]

Oh, so these are the things which have been flying over me recently.... please don't ask me where, in what mode....

Sir where and in what mode?

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Excellent progress in UAV domain.
Keep the good work up.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Oh, so these are the things which have been flying over me recently.... please don't ask me where, in what mode....

aik aur qism key bhi report huway hain near one of pak's border jo key abhi tak identify nahi huwa kay konsa tha ,

 

[graphican]

useless junk nothing serious in it . still making 2000s era drones in 2021

After collaboration with Turkey, they won't be the same 2000 era drones.

 

[farooqbhai007]

useless junk nothing serious in it . still making 2000s era drones in 2021

according to your views what is a 2021 era drone then , pls delight me