Malik Alashter
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And what's wrong with the AK?
Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.
- Thread starter Zarvan
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denel
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Nothing.. Just pointing that out. Its design influenced valmet it is a literally copied with cosmetic changes; galil/R4 borrows heavily from AK as well. We live and breath Galil/R4/R5 here and kudos.
pzfz
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galil/r4 borrows heavily from the finnish rk62 rifle. The fins gave the know-how and stamping machines to the israelis. Way back in this very thread i said to go for the rk95tp; or any other ak variant like the vektor r4 or the zastavas. Suits the soldiers and conditions better than any other rifle out there. AR variants or expensive ones like the hk417 and scars are frankly too good to be put in the hands of a regular infantrymen.
MastanKhan
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Malik Alashter
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The cutest rifle ever
pzfz
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It's not about looks. An AK based platform suits the relatively cheap and not as well educated and not as heavily invested soldiers that countries outside the west have. Some say the supposed accuracy of AR/HK based platforms are reason enough to go with them, but a simple question has to be asked: how many soldiers can handle and use that particular AR platform to its full extent? Not everyone can or will be a marksman in the army. Barely any meaningful engagements beyond the 300/400 m that an AK can do very well.
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Path-Finder
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Zarvan
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SABAR KA PHAL MEETHA HOTA HAY turns out even T 129 was under trials for past 4 years
Vergennes
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Don't know if this has ever been posted,but interesting read!
General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/
@Zarvan @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan
General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/
@Zarvan @balixd @Path-Finder @Arsalan
Zarvan
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General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle
So often in media, we see a blurb about an acquisition program and a year or so later we see a follow up story announcing a winner. What happened during that year? This article is my attempt to provide insight into the goings-on of an acquisition program.
In the summer of 2016 I had the great fortune to participate in the summer weapons trials in Pakistan. This was part of a $1.3B USD acquisition program that would select the future battle rifle for Pakistan. The program required the initially purchase of rifles from the original equipment factory with manufacturing and licensing rights to third party sales eventually shifting to new facilities being constructed in Pakistan. Of the handful of US companies registered to attend, I found myself to be the lone representative from the United States. Our offering was a 7.62 NATO, AR10-type rifle with a piston operating system. I arrived in early June for a brief two-week trip and ended up leaving two months later.
As this is a firearms related blog, I’ll focus primarily on the testing aspects of the trials, but I would like to start off with some general thoughts.
Pakistan was the United States’ key ally in Southwest Asia during the Cold War. President John F. Kennedy solidified this relationship by giving Pakistani President Mohammad Ayub Khan a hero’s welcome in 1961. Fifty-five years later, as China’s influence in Pakistan grew with the construction of the New Silk Road and Gwadar Port, the US shifted its interests from Pakistan to India. It is anticipated this area will soon dominate global trade. As a participant in the General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle solicitation I had opportunity to visit Pakistan. During my time there, my friend Adnan acknowledged this shift but said the US and Pakistan will again be close because the peoples of both countries like to fight and share the warrior ethos.
Entry to President Ayub’s home
I was continually impressed with the general knowledge of global politics possessed by even the common person.
An individual might live in abject poverty, but they were keen to discuss the upcoming US election. I was constantly being asked about my opinion of Clinton and Trump.
Typical roadside
I was impressed by the warmth of the Pakistani people and their friendliness. I had the privilege to meet and form friendships with both the son of the former president of Kashmir and the husband of the former Bangladesh princess. We shared fantastic conversations.
Amer and Adnan, great guys
Pakistan is a very poor country. I showed up with the expectation that we could procure some of the basic tools needed to service the weapons during testing. Just run down to Walmart. Nope! For example, not even basic Allen wrench sets were available. I informed my host Shameel, he should have told me all they have is dirt and water and to bring everything else.
When I arrived in Pakistan, the US embassy was on lockdown. I was the only American walking around. It was a little disconcerting to see NGO, Embassy, and military types riding around in armored Land Cruisers I was just in a stock Toyota Corolla, but low vis works. From my military and defense sales experiences, not having any US government back up or support was a bit unnerving at times. That is when having good friends is vital.
Shameel and I at PAKORD Base, tremendous business associate.
On to the trial…
The weapons trial consisted of numerous tests; below is a partial list:
• Technical briefings
• Hot chamber cook-off
• Iron sight accuracy
• Optics accuracy
• Penetration
• Hot and cold environmental chambers
• Interchangeability
• Endurance
• Pluff mud
• Sand test
• Mud
Each of these tests took place at different military installations and with varying numbers of participants.
The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
• HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite
Several of the companies had already completed the accuracy and environmental testing during the winter trials. For the duration of the test only three companies were present; CZ, MKEK, and the company I represented. Each weapon OEM and/or Pakistani representative paid for their participation in the trials including; travel, accommodations, use of military facilities, ammunition, etc — very different from the US or European approach where the military pays for the official testing.
Following is a summary of several of the tests, separated by facility with key observations notes.
Islamabad
The capital city of Islamabad was our operational hub from which we traveled to the various test facilities. I took receipt of weapons from the freight forwarders and conducted an inspection as the weapons were inventoried into the Pakistani armory. All participants conducted preliminary briefings on capabilities and waited for the requisite stamps and signatures for access to the military bases.
PAKORD Base
Cook-off test. Firing 120 rounds as quickly as possible, last 20 rd magazine is inserted into the weapon and a round is chambered. To the best of my knowledge only the FN SCAR and HK G3 cooked off.
Accuracy at 100m. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.
Ammunition conditioned to 21°C (69.8° F). At least two of the three groups must be less than 3.5moa or a 102mm circle. In all accuracy testing the most accurate weapon was the US AR10 style rifle.
Team CZ with their test fixture
Accuracy at Effective Range. 400m firing iron sights. 600m firing optical sight. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.
Ammunition conditioned to 21°C (69.8° F). On the range were MKE, CZ, and myself. MKE was assigned two of the top shooters in the Pakistan army.
CZ brought their factory sponsored competitive shooters. Representing the US was just me wishing I had spent more time using iron sights and blaming Drake and Magpul for my inability with their Pro Sights.(Actually, Drake and Magpul are great people.) My take away is that shooting groups for accuracy using iron sights is challenging especially when using the equivalent of M80 ball ammunition. There was considerable variability inherent in the ammunition.
So often in media, we see a blurb about an acquisition program and a year or so later we see a follow up story announcing a winner. What happened during that year? This article is my attempt to provide insight into the goings-on of an acquisition program.
In the summer of 2016 I had the great fortune to participate in the summer weapons trials in Pakistan. This was part of a $1.3B USD acquisition program that would select the future battle rifle for Pakistan. The program required the initially purchase of rifles from the original equipment factory with manufacturing and licensing rights to third party sales eventually shifting to new facilities being constructed in Pakistan. Of the handful of US companies registered to attend, I found myself to be the lone representative from the United States. Our offering was a 7.62 NATO, AR10-type rifle with a piston operating system. I arrived in early June for a brief two-week trip and ended up leaving two months later.
As this is a firearms related blog, I’ll focus primarily on the testing aspects of the trials, but I would like to start off with some general thoughts.
Pakistan was the United States’ key ally in Southwest Asia during the Cold War. President John F. Kennedy solidified this relationship by giving Pakistani President Mohammad Ayub Khan a hero’s welcome in 1961. Fifty-five years later, as China’s influence in Pakistan grew with the construction of the New Silk Road and Gwadar Port, the US shifted its interests from Pakistan to India. It is anticipated this area will soon dominate global trade. As a participant in the General Staff Requirement (GSR) New Assault Rifle solicitation I had opportunity to visit Pakistan. During my time there, my friend Adnan acknowledged this shift but said the US and Pakistan will again be close because the peoples of both countries like to fight and share the warrior ethos.
Entry to President Ayub’s home
I was continually impressed with the general knowledge of global politics possessed by even the common person.
An individual might live in abject poverty, but they were keen to discuss the upcoming US election. I was constantly being asked about my opinion of Clinton and Trump.
Typical roadside
I was impressed by the warmth of the Pakistani people and their friendliness. I had the privilege to meet and form friendships with both the son of the former president of Kashmir and the husband of the former Bangladesh princess. We shared fantastic conversations.
Amer and Adnan, great guys
Pakistan is a very poor country. I showed up with the expectation that we could procure some of the basic tools needed to service the weapons during testing. Just run down to Walmart. Nope! For example, not even basic Allen wrench sets were available. I informed my host Shameel, he should have told me all they have is dirt and water and to bring everything else.
When I arrived in Pakistan, the US embassy was on lockdown. I was the only American walking around. It was a little disconcerting to see NGO, Embassy, and military types riding around in armored Land Cruisers I was just in a stock Toyota Corolla, but low vis works. From my military and defense sales experiences, not having any US government back up or support was a bit unnerving at times. That is when having good friends is vital.
Shameel and I at PAKORD Base, tremendous business associate.
On to the trial…
The weapons trial consisted of numerous tests; below is a partial list:
• Technical briefings
• Hot chamber cook-off
• Iron sight accuracy
• Optics accuracy
• Penetration
• Hot and cold environmental chambers
• Interchangeability
• Endurance
• Pluff mud
• Sand test
• Mud
Each of these tests took place at different military installations and with varying numbers of participants.
The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
• HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite
Several of the companies had already completed the accuracy and environmental testing during the winter trials. For the duration of the test only three companies were present; CZ, MKEK, and the company I represented. Each weapon OEM and/or Pakistani representative paid for their participation in the trials including; travel, accommodations, use of military facilities, ammunition, etc — very different from the US or European approach where the military pays for the official testing.
Following is a summary of several of the tests, separated by facility with key observations notes.
Islamabad
The capital city of Islamabad was our operational hub from which we traveled to the various test facilities. I took receipt of weapons from the freight forwarders and conducted an inspection as the weapons were inventoried into the Pakistani armory. All participants conducted preliminary briefings on capabilities and waited for the requisite stamps and signatures for access to the military bases.
PAKORD Base
Cook-off test. Firing 120 rounds as quickly as possible, last 20 rd magazine is inserted into the weapon and a round is chambered. To the best of my knowledge only the FN SCAR and HK G3 cooked off.
Accuracy at 100m. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.
Ammunition conditioned to 21°C (69.8° F). At least two of the three groups must be less than 3.5moa or a 102mm circle. In all accuracy testing the most accurate weapon was the US AR10 style rifle.
Team CZ with their test fixture
Accuracy at Effective Range. 400m firing iron sights. 600m firing optical sight. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.
Ammunition conditioned to 21°C (69.8° F). On the range were MKE, CZ, and myself. MKE was assigned two of the top shooters in the Pakistan army.
CZ brought their factory sponsored competitive shooters. Representing the US was just me wishing I had spent more time using iron sights and blaming Drake and Magpul for my inability with their Pro Sights.(Actually, Drake and Magpul are great people.) My take away is that shooting groups for accuracy using iron sights is challenging especially when using the equivalent of M80 ball ammunition. There was considerable variability inherent in the ammunition.
Zarvan
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Range Facility after the grass was cut. When we first showed up it looked like a field of straw.
Monsoon rains made for muddy conditions. Seeing the black cobras crossing the roads kept me cautious when walking around.
Penetration at Effective Range.
Shooting 10 gauge (3.42m) steel plates measuring 1.5m x 1.5m. 600m firing optical sight. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.
8 out of 10 shots from 2 out of 3 groups from each weapon must pass through the plate. During winter trials none of the rifles was able to consistently penetrate the plate.
MKE and CZ started with mixed results, but all my shots penetrated the plate. I had set my rounds in the sun and when they were hot to the touch I made my shots. MKE and CZ quickly followed my example and were soon penetrating the plate with every shot. It was interesting to see the lack of temperature stability for the powder/primer combination.
Extreme Climate Test. Hot. 360 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at +60°C (140°F) for 12 hours. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons, all of which had the bolt catch fall out of the weapon during testing and one of which launched the muzzle break down range.
Cold. 720 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at -40°C (-40°F). Two cycles of 120x rounds fired from each weapon. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons which would not chamber a round and did not fire a single shot.
Interchangeability Test. Ten weapons broken down and placed into ten trays. The first weapon started in tray one. The second weapon started in tray two and ended in tray one.
The third weapon started in tray three and ended in tray two. The other weapons followed. Breakdown as follows: (1) Barrel and Receiver (2) Bolt Assembly (3) Bolt Carrier/Cam Plate (4) Pistol Grip (5) Trigger Mechanism (6) Gas Tube Assembly (7) Piston Assembly (8) Recoil/Return Spring (9) Magazine (10) Butt Stock
The components in each tray were assembled and ten shots fired. There weren’t any function issues amongst the competitors, but fitment was tight on several of the CZ weapons.
Endurance Testing. Condition of the weapons; cleaned and oiled. Multiple series of 120 round intervals. First magazine, five single shots and the remained fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. Subsequent magazines fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. After the 120-round sequence, the weapons cooled to within 2°C (35.6°F) of ambient, and then another interval was fired. Weapons were cleaned and lubricated every 1,200 rounds.
Accuracy at 100M, muzzle velocity, and rate-of-fire were tested at the beginning and end of each cleaning and lubrication cycle. Only CZ and FN participated in the endurance testing with varying results.
Base Gharo
Mud Immersion Test. Condition of the rifles; bolt closed on an empty chamber with a loaded magazine inserted and the muzzle capped. The SSG took the rifles into the tidal pluff mud and rolled them in the mud until they were completely covered.
MKE and CZ rifles along with Serbian and Chinese AK’s were able to get one or two rounds fired before jamming. The US weapon wouldn’t even chamber a round. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue. The SSG operators commented that when conducting operations where they know they will pass through pluff mud the only weapon they will carry is the AK.
SSG Range built by US Seabees
Pluff Mud. I wish I had better photos capturing how much mud covered the weapons.
Sukkur
Sand Test. Condition of the weapons, the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. The weapons were buried under two feet of sand and left to bake for one hour. The temperature was 56°C (133°F) in the shade. After the requisite bake, the weapons were dug up and test fired. The US weapon wouldn’t fire. The CZ and MKE rifle along with the Serbian and Chinese AKs were able to get one or two round fired before jamming. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.
Can you identify all the weapons?
Vladimir Onokoy, leader of the Kalashnikov trial team (another solo representative)
Mud Test. Condition of the weapons; the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. Only the Chinese and Russian AK’s fired. The Chinese AK had a single jam and once cleared continued to run. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.
Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved.
However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles. The number of SCAR rifles purchased is zero – too expensive.
Takeaways: The AR10-type weapon is inherently accurate especially when compared to other service rifles, but the design leaves it very susceptible to dirt and debris. Adding a piston system to the AR15/10/M4/M16 does not improve the reliability of the system in harsh environments due to design limitations. Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.
Aside from all the technical and performance components of a procurement, you can’t discount the dynamics that money and politics play in winning a solicitation – which might be a subject better off discussed over a beer.
Keep an eye out for a subsequent article detailing how to test the functional accuracy of your rifle using lessons learned in Scandinavian and Pakistan testing. Stop believing the marketing hype and get to know your rifle.
John Kennedy is a co-founder of www.proofmarkllc.com, a firearms accessories design and manufacturing company. John was a contractor in OEF and OIF, with a background ranging from nuclear fuel production to ballistic protection. He currently consults on risk management and global defense.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/
Monsoon rains made for muddy conditions. Seeing the black cobras crossing the roads kept me cautious when walking around.
Penetration at Effective Range.
Shooting 10 gauge (3.42m) steel plates measuring 1.5m x 1.5m. 600m firing optical sight. Three rifles firing three ten shot groups apiece.
8 out of 10 shots from 2 out of 3 groups from each weapon must pass through the plate. During winter trials none of the rifles was able to consistently penetrate the plate.
MKE and CZ started with mixed results, but all my shots penetrated the plate. I had set my rounds in the sun and when they were hot to the touch I made my shots. MKE and CZ quickly followed my example and were soon penetrating the plate with every shot. It was interesting to see the lack of temperature stability for the powder/primer combination.
Extreme Climate Test. Hot. 360 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at +60°C (140°F) for 12 hours. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons, all of which had the bolt catch fall out of the weapon during testing and one of which launched the muzzle break down range.
Cold. 720 rounds loaded into magazines and three test weapons were conditioned at -40°C (-40°F). Two cycles of 120x rounds fired from each weapon. All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons which would not chamber a round and did not fire a single shot.
Interchangeability Test. Ten weapons broken down and placed into ten trays. The first weapon started in tray one. The second weapon started in tray two and ended in tray one.
The third weapon started in tray three and ended in tray two. The other weapons followed. Breakdown as follows: (1) Barrel and Receiver (2) Bolt Assembly (3) Bolt Carrier/Cam Plate (4) Pistol Grip (5) Trigger Mechanism (6) Gas Tube Assembly (7) Piston Assembly (8) Recoil/Return Spring (9) Magazine (10) Butt Stock
The components in each tray were assembled and ten shots fired. There weren’t any function issues amongst the competitors, but fitment was tight on several of the CZ weapons.
Endurance Testing. Condition of the weapons; cleaned and oiled. Multiple series of 120 round intervals. First magazine, five single shots and the remained fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. Subsequent magazines fired in 3 to 5 shot bursts, with a rate of fire of 85 rounds per minute. After the 120-round sequence, the weapons cooled to within 2°C (35.6°F) of ambient, and then another interval was fired. Weapons were cleaned and lubricated every 1,200 rounds.
Accuracy at 100M, muzzle velocity, and rate-of-fire were tested at the beginning and end of each cleaning and lubrication cycle. Only CZ and FN participated in the endurance testing with varying results.
Base Gharo
Mud Immersion Test. Condition of the rifles; bolt closed on an empty chamber with a loaded magazine inserted and the muzzle capped. The SSG took the rifles into the tidal pluff mud and rolled them in the mud until they were completely covered.
MKE and CZ rifles along with Serbian and Chinese AK’s were able to get one or two rounds fired before jamming. The US weapon wouldn’t even chamber a round. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue. The SSG operators commented that when conducting operations where they know they will pass through pluff mud the only weapon they will carry is the AK.
SSG Range built by US Seabees
Pluff Mud. I wish I had better photos capturing how much mud covered the weapons.
Sukkur
Sand Test. Condition of the weapons, the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. The weapons were buried under two feet of sand and left to bake for one hour. The temperature was 56°C (133°F) in the shade. After the requisite bake, the weapons were dug up and test fired. The US weapon wouldn’t fire. The CZ and MKE rifle along with the Serbian and Chinese AKs were able to get one or two round fired before jamming. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.
Can you identify all the weapons?
Vladimir Onokoy, leader of the Kalashnikov trial team (another solo representative)
Mud Test. Condition of the weapons; the muzzles were capped, and a round chambered. Only the Chinese and Russian AK’s fired. The Chinese AK had a single jam and once cleared continued to run. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.
Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues; however, the FN SCAR was the only rifle that was finalized, officially accepted, with licensed manufacturing approved.
However, since the completion of the trials, Pakistan has purchased 140,000 AK 103 rifles. The number of SCAR rifles purchased is zero – too expensive.
Takeaways: The AR10-type weapon is inherently accurate especially when compared to other service rifles, but the design leaves it very susceptible to dirt and debris. Adding a piston system to the AR15/10/M4/M16 does not improve the reliability of the system in harsh environments due to design limitations. Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.
Aside from all the technical and performance components of a procurement, you can’t discount the dynamics that money and politics play in winning a solicitation – which might be a subject better off discussed over a beer.
Keep an eye out for a subsequent article detailing how to test the functional accuracy of your rifle using lessons learned in Scandinavian and Pakistan testing. Stop believing the marketing hype and get to know your rifle.
John Kennedy is a co-founder of www.proofmarkllc.com, a firearms accessories design and manufacturing company. John was a contractor in OEF and OIF, with a background ranging from nuclear fuel production to ballistic protection. He currently consults on risk management and global defense.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/
django
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Path-Finder
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The list is incredibly interesting! Had absolutely no Idea that these many OEM were participating!!
The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
• HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite
True to their nature they tested the absolute s#it out of these guns and left nothing for a chance.
Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.
The following companies were invited to participate in the trials:
• Beretta
• Kalashnikov
• Sig Sauer
• Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK)
• CZ
• PWS
• FN Herstal
• LWRC Intl
• Zastava Arms
• Anderson Manufacturing Inc
• HK
• Hanwha
• Denel Land Systems
• Colt
• Steyr
• Armalite
True to their nature they tested the absolute s#it out of these guns and left nothing for a chance.
Considering these trials, it is interesting to ponder weapon testing requirements of the United States and the small arms currently being used and purchased by the Services. The selection approach of the United States may need to be rethought. If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.
denel
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I know DLS did not go.
Path-Finder
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wah ji wah you do realise you have challenged the levels of our hazrat @Zarvan
interesting!
This Article nulls and voids this 3 year old thread! Why? No clear winner and the list of participants were unknown too. Type 56 that we bash is a good weapon under the harsh circumstances and none of the new weapons were upto par except the 'Authentically Russian' made AK.
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