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Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

Which rifle should win the competition?

  • FN-SCAR-H

    Votes: 241 42.9%
  • Beretta ARX-200

    Votes: 62 11.0%
  • CZ-806 Bren2

    Votes: 116 20.6%
  • Kalashnikov AK-103

    Votes: 127 22.6%
  • Zavasta M21

    Votes: 17 3.0%

  • Total voters
    562
He has equal say as everyone else. Contest him with opinions not ridicule.

You honor Objection! We do that 'however' can you explain the phenomenon of Zarvan? We for lover nor money can understand him! We all state an opinion BUT there is opinion and there is bias. There is over 270 pages of Bias.

I ask you because he holds you in high esteem.

FYI - @balixd @Oscar @Icarus

SUMMER TRIALS - SUMMERY

All rifles were tested in hot environment with 200 rounds for each test, i.e under the direct sunlight conditions, under the shade, mud, sand tests etc

Water immersion test | No stoppages

Slush test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.

Sand Test | there were stoppages on all rifles except none for AK-103 due to its powerful spring, and least stoppages for FN Scar.

Mud Test | All had many stoppages, SCAR stopped 4 time, marking the lowest number.

For Sustained Fire Test | 200 rounds / 10x magazines with immediate reload - Conducted twice.

FN SCAR H : Passed
Beretta : Didn't had appropriate number of magazines so each time it was refilled thus not passing the criteria.
Chinese AK : Passed
CZ (x51) : More than 15 stoppages after only 2-3 magazines; couldn't finish the test.
MKEK MPT-76 : 3 stoppages and the magazine was very difficult to remove while the weapon was hot.
Zastava : 3 stoppages
G3-A3 : 3 stoppages
AK-103 : 3 stoppages
CZ (x39 ) : 10 stoppages and after the test, the weapon was too hot to maintain it correctly.

At first instance this test was conducted in the open desert where outside temperature was very hot 54 or 55 deg C and the user first exposed all the rifles to outside temperature against sun for an hour or so and then immediately fired 200 shots on all the rifles.

SCAR passed these number of rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times

Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 3 times.

The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 fired 200 shots with two or three stoppage and cooked off 2 times and its plastic parts started burning as well.

Betretta didn't have appropriate number of magazines i.e., 10 x 20 rds magazines so their test was ignored with the remark that they don't have sufficient magazines.

Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 12 stoppages or so giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting in no cook off later.

The test was repeated in a shady environment under the trees at a different place where outside temperature was still very hot 53 deg c.

Ceska Zbrojovka CZ-807 couldn't pass 200 rounds and had more than 10-12 stoppages giving them time for their rifle and its chamber to cool down resulting no cook off.

Betretta had only 06 magazines for ARX-200 so they refilled 04 magazines quickly which got them time resulting in no cook off.

SCAR passed 200 rounds without any jam and hence cooked off 2 times.

Zastava M-77P also fired 200 shots with no stoppage and cooked off 2 times.

The Turkish MKEK MPT-76 also fired 200 shots with one stoppage and cooked off 1 time and again with its plastic parts smelled like burning.

So generally the tester regarded all the rifles with cook off in such an environment if they pass 200 shots without any stoppage. Although 200 shots were passed at a different location of summer trials where SCAR did not cook-off.

Technical trials happened during winter as well as summer on all rifles and the rifles which qualified these two trials went through final test of endurance test where 30,000 rounds were fired from 3 of the each rifle of each OEM meaning 10,000 round per rifle, Only following went to this test and FN SCAR with aimpoint sight qualified. While, Beretta was caught cheating, CZ both types failed and their CZ (x39) was caught red handed while replacing rifle parts in violation of the test rules. MKEK MPT-76 failed and AK-103 failed as their chamber and barrel busted at 5000 rounds.
 
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Salaam brother's we are eagerly waiting for your choice. As you all have a much wider experience on selecting the best weapons. Insaha Allah we could benefit enormously from your experiences
 
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POF brass mill is for ammmo export.

I wrote

Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.

Brass mill was inaugurated recently.

http://www.radio.gov.pk/15-Mar-2016/army-chief-for-further-technological-up-gradation-of-pof

http://quwa.org/2017/02/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-sees-three-fold-increase-brass-output/

CQBs only requirement is 13" barrel not the caliber. The SSG is using an M-4 commando for CQB ops in 5.56mm. SCAR on the other hand is the only rifle in the tender which accepts any barrel length. Technically, a SCAR can be switched from a battle rifle to a CQB rifle or the other way around. POF is already producing a CQB variant of G-3 called G-3M with a 13" barrel, chambered in 7.62x51. Its a battle tested platform and working very well for Paramilitary. Similarly the Army is using x39 for CQB.

Regarding CQC rifle, HK MP5 is a 9×19mm SMG. There is a lot of difference (in weight and magazine capacity) between 9x19mm and 7.62x51mm. As I have mentioned before, 20 rounds (vs 30 or more rounds) is always a -ve.

7.62 NATO is more a sniper round. In case of PA, it will never fully take the role of SMG.

Only thing you need to do is to better educate yourself. This is a debate platform and if you continue to ridicule members, you'll be locked out.

I apologize if your ego was hurt. I have always tried to avoid it from getting personal.
Meanwhile, I continue educating myself.
 
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@Horus there is plenty of love for .39 in the armed forces , I'm witness to it. Do you think if whatever is selected , we will also surely adopt it's .39 and for now stick to those heavily modded lovely Chinese type series ?
 
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@Horus there is plenty of love for .39 in the armed forces , I'm witness to it. Do you think if whatever is selected , we will also surely adopt it's .39 and for now stick to those heavily modded lovely Chinese type series ?
If there would have been this big love for x 39 than SSG would have not switched to M4 and got them in such large numbers and M4 is not x 39 but 5.56 X 45 caliber. Even now LCB and many other Pakistan Army soldiers are seen carrying M4

I wrote

Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.

Brass mill was inaugurated recently.

http://www.radio.gov.pk/15-Mar-2016/army-chief-for-further-technological-up-gradation-of-pof

http://quwa.org/2017/02/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-sees-three-fold-increase-brass-output/



Regarding CQC rifle, HK MP5 is a 9×19mm SMG. There is a lot of difference (in weight and magazine capacity) between 9x19mm and 7.62x51mm. As I have mentioned before, 20 rounds (vs 30 or more rounds) is always a -ve.

7.62 NATO is more a sniper round. In case of PA, it will never fully take the role of SMG.



I apologize if your ego was hurt. I have always tried to avoid it from getting personal.
Meanwhile, I continue educating myself.
@Horus says Pakistan planned to use x 39 Rifle Gun to replace MP5 we were not looking to get 9mm Sub Machine Gun x 39 caliber would have been considered replacement but as we are stuck with x 39 Guns failing and AK not ready to give TOT we may drop it
 
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If there would have been this big love for x 39 than SSG would have not switched to M4 and got them in such large numbers and M4 is not x 39 but 5.56 X 45 caliber. Even now LCB and many other Pakistan Army soldiers are seen carrying M4


@Horus says Pakistan planned to use x 39 Rifle Gun to replace MP5 we were not looking to get 9mm Sub Machine Gun x 39 caliber would have been considered replacement but as we are stuck with x 39 Guns failing and AK not ready to give TOT we may drop it
Meray bhai, I shouldn't disclose links but I've been to Tarbela SSG base let's say quite a few times over the years , quite a few, and I know their armoury inside out. They have love for the .39 I myself have used both the weapons you have mentioned while offering better control and light weight, the M4 is favoured by Zarrar anti terrorist company, the convention units of SSG prefer .39 for stopping power.
 
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9mm round is practically useless in CQC that is why the Army started to use other calibers. Fate of x39 is not sealed. Its my assessment that Army may choose to discontinue it due to the lack of options or defer it for a few years in the future. I have to maintain a cordial atmosphere in this thread so everyone can part-take without being ridiculed or called out to personally.

I wrote

Last year, a new plant was opened to manufacture 7.62x39mm ammo.

Brass mill was inaugurated recently.

http://www.radio.gov.pk/15-Mar-2016/army-chief-for-further-technological-up-gradation-of-pof

http://quwa.org/2017/02/06/pakistan-ordnance-factories-sees-three-fold-increase-brass-output/



Regarding CQC rifle, HK MP5 is a 9×19mm SMG. There is a lot of difference (in weight and magazine capacity) between 9x19mm and 7.62x51mm. As I have mentioned before, 20 rounds (vs 30 or more rounds) is always a -ve.

7.62 NATO is more a sniper round. In case of PA, it will never fully take the role of SMG.



I apologize if your ego was hurt. I have always tried to avoid it from getting personal.
Meanwhile, I continue educating myself.

It might not be that simple. Pakistan chooses weapons which can be used between -50 to +55 degree temperatures due to our needs. The torture tests are different and based on the soil density and other climatic factors.

Salaam brother's we are eagerly waiting for your choice. As you all have a much wider experience on selecting the best weapons. Insaha Allah we could benefit enormously from your experiences
 
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Going on a tangent, any reason why adapting the AR-15 platform wasn't considered? IIRC the AR-15 basically forms the basis of the HK416/417 and MPT-76. Yes, Turkey's take didn't pan out well in the tests (this was confirmed by MKEK as well), but was there no way of grabbing overseas AR-design experts to develop a new rifle built around Pakistan's requirements?
 
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Only choice was HK-417 and they are not selling to Pakistan due to the German Govt policies.

Going on a tangent, any reason why adapting the AR-15 platform wasn't considered? IIRC the AR-15 basically forms the basis of the HK416/417 and MPT-76. Yes, Turkey's take didn't pan out well in the tests (this was confirmed by MKEK as well), but was there no way of grabbing overseas AR-design experts to develop a new rifle built around Pakistan's requirements?
 
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Going on a tangent, any reason why adapting the AR-15 platform wasn't considered? IIRC the AR-15 basically forms the basis of the HK416/417 and MPT-76. Yes, Turkey's take didn't pan out well in the tests (this was confirmed by MKEK as well), but was there no way of grabbing overseas AR-design experts to develop a new rifle built around Pakistan's requirements?

SIG516 should have been trialed. :(
 
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