Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Neptune]

From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.

 

[Neutron]

What are the top characteristics we must be looking for selection of assault rifle.

1. Light weight
2. Accurate fire
3. Range 300 to 700m
4. Durability

 

[Path-Finder]

From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.

does Avcı 1x-4x optic sight share any characteristics with Elcan Specter?

 

[Fenrir]

Is Pakistan opting to retain the 7.62 or are they looking to transition to a smaller round?

If they're looking to retain the 7.62 x 51, has any consideration been given to the SCAR-H?

SCAR-H Mk 17 Mod 0

Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) Mk 20 Mod 0

If anyone's wondering about their environmental controls, users range from cold climates such as Finland to the high altitudes of Chile and Peru - Pakistan's SSU also uses it. Concerns about its performance in cold, hot or at altitude aren't warranted, this rifle performs well in all categories.

 

[Neptune]

does Avcı 1x-4x optic sight share any characteristics with Elcan Specter?

Sorry I don't know. I am no expert on this.

 

[Zarvan]

Is Pakistan opting to retain the 7.62 or are they looking to transition to a smaller round?

If they're looking to retain the 7.62 x 51, has any consideration been given to the SCAR-H?

SCAR-H Mk 17 Mod 0

Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) Mk 20 Mod 0

If anyone's wondering about their environmental controls, users range from cold climates such as Finland to the high altitudes of Chile and Peru - Pakistan's SSU also uses it. Concerns about its performance in cold, hot or at altitude aren't warranted, this rifle performs well in all categories.

FN SCAR will be tested for sure

From first batch delivery of MPT-76, in service of JÖAK (Gendarmerie Special Public Security Command, HRT) with Avcı 1x-4x optic sight.

Is the guy carrying DMR version ?

 

[Neptune]

FN SCAR will be tested for sure


Is the guy carrying DMR version ?

Nope..battle rifle variant. They might opt for it in different roles if JÖAK likes it.

 

[Armstrong]

Is Pakistan opting to retain the 7.62 or are they looking to transition to a smaller round?

If they're looking to retain the 7.62 x 51, has any consideration been given to the SCAR-H?

SCAR-H Mk 17 Mod 0

Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) Mk 20 Mod 0

If anyone's wondering about their environmental controls, users range from cold climates such as Finland to the high altitudes of Chile and Peru - Pakistan's SSU also uses it. Concerns about its performance in cold, hot or at altitude aren't warranted, this rifle performs well in all categories.

Oh I am an expert marksmen with SCAR H in Sniper 2 Ghost Recon !

But I think we most probably will be priced out of it....equipping an Army of nearly 1.3 million active soldiers isn't cheap !

 

[Fenrir]

But I think we most probably will be priced out of it....equipping an Army of nearly 1.3 million active soldiers isn't cheap !

Yup, that's probably going to be the biggest problem with replacing the G3. I don't know the SCAR-H's cost, but Norway's HK417 cost around $8500 for the gun alone. its "goodies" really jack up the price - to around $11500, especially the optic. It's really, really expensive, but affordable for Norway is its only used as a Designated Marksman Weapon - the HK416N 16.5" had a per unit cost of $2600 for the Norwegian Armed Forces and is equipped military wide. It lacks most attachments, but does feature low-power optics, laser targeting modules and suppressors military wide (as needed).

Here's the "goodies" that increase the price of our 417s:

HK417 20" Barrel, SA only.......2800 EUR - this is the cost of the civilian MR308, not the cost of a militarized HK417!!!
Schmidt & Bender PMII 3-12x50/LP.......2800 EUR
B&T Rotex III Rifle Suppressor........900 EUR
Harris Bipod.......150 EUR
20 round and 10 round mags........90 EUR/each
Rear BUIS.........100-200 EUR
Sling........150 EUR (complete kit with front and rear adapter)
Cleaning Kit.......XXX EUR
Brass catcher.........400 EUR
Carrying Case (PeliCase)

Norway is also using an accurized version, with the AGR, and a longer front rail - military deals also contain training, tools, spares, etc. that are simply counted in the single unit prices, these cost neglect discounts for bulk purchases that are afforded to military users.

This is one of ours:

 

[Armstrong]

Yup, that's probably going to be the biggest problem with replacing the G3. I don't know the SCAR-H's cost, but Norway's HK417 cost around $8500 for the gun alone. its "goodies" really jack up the price - to around $11500, especially the optic. It's really, really expensive, but affordable for Norway is its only used as a Designated Marksman Weapon - the HK416N 16.5" had a per unit cost of $2600 for the Norwegian Armed Forces and is equipped military wide.

Here's the "goodies" that increase the price of our 417s:

HK417 20" Barrel, SA only.......2800 EUR - this is the civilian cost, not the cost of a militarized rifle!!!
Schmidt & Bender PMII 3-12x50/LP.......2800 EUR
B&T Rotex III Rifle Suppressor........900 EUR
Harris Bipod.......150 EUR
20 round and 10 round mags........90 EUR/each
Rear BUIS.........100-200 EUR
Sling........150 EUR (complete kit with front and rear adapter)
Cleaning Kit.......XXX EUR
Brass catcher.........400 EUR
Carrying Case (PeliCase)


Norway is also using an accurized version, with the AGR, and a longer front rail - military deals also contain training, tools, spares, etc. that are simply counted in the single unit prices, these cost neglect discounts for bulk purchases that are afforded to military users

Ma'am you do realize that most of it is gibberish to me; I am a finance guy how the heck would I know what a Harris Bipod or a Brass Catcher is ?

But the finance guy in me tells me that 'cause most NATO countries (including Norway) have smaller armies and well established economies you guys can buy the best of the best out there....we'd probably be priced out 'cause we're the what 7th largest Army in the world funded by the 21st largest economy (PPP) in the world - Simple costing works against us !

 

[Fenrir]

We'd probably be priced out 'cause we're the what 7th largest Army

That's the price you pay for wanting a larger caliber weapon military wide, rather than in designated roles such as DMR or SSR. Equipping your whole military with a 7.62 caliber rifle isn't going to be cheap, it's going to be about 3 times more expensive than using the comparable 5.56 caliber weapon - as noted in the cost discrepancy between the militarized HK416 and HK417.

Perhaps Pakistan should rethink its military structure and tactics? Perhaps not. But if this is the course Pakistan is going, retaining a 7.62 militarized rifle over the adoption of a smaller round, it's not going to be cheap to implement military wide - hence why most militaries opted for the under-performing (at distances greater than 400m) 5.56 cartridge, their rifles tend to cost less and require less maintenance (it's also a tactical concern as many militaries operate in more urban environments where the small cartridge performs nicely).

(PPP)

And being a finance guy you should know that PPP is worthless in international trade as prices aren't denominated in national selling prices or the cost of production in the buying nation, they are denominated in the negotiation between what the buyer and seller are willing to part with.

I can't see FN accepting Pakistan's production price as the basis for its selling cost.

Ma'am you do realize that most of it is gibberish to me;

It's going to be gibberish to most people, especially those without military service. I know you're not this ignorant, but I'll explain anyways.

Bipod - the legs on the front that stabilize the rifle

Brass catcher - a module that collects spend ammo casings.

Oh, and sorry for being so serious, I get like this when I'm bored. Friday night and I've nothing to do!

 

[Gufi]

Yup, that's probably going to be the biggest problem with replacing the G3.

The number of guns required would be too costly plus our requirement for transfer of technology to be able to build them in our factories would be sticking points from our side. Otherwise this would be an excellent choice with the number of attachments available and the ruggedness of the gun.

@Technogaianist just noticed, congrats on the professional tag...

 

[Armstrong]

That's the price you pay for wanting a larger caliber weapon military wide, rather than in designated roles such as DM or SSR. Equipping your whole military with a 7.62 caliber rifle isn't going to be cheap, it's going to be about 3 times more expensive than using the comparable 5.56 caliber weapon - as noted in the cost discrepancy between the militarized HK416 and HK417.

Perhaps Pakistan should rethink its military structure and tactics? Perhaps not. But if this is the course Pakistan is going, retaining a 7.62 militarized rifle, it's not going to be cheap to implement military wide - hence why most militaries opted for the under-performing (at distances greater than 400m) 5.56 cartridge, their rifles tend to cost less and require less maintenance.

The two arguments I've seen floated on this forum many times is that Pakistan has a lot of....a LOT...of 7.62 mm ammo in reserve so there is an opportunity cost over there to be paid and that the Army isn't impressed with the 5.56 mm's lack of stopping power - Dunno whether thats true or not but thats what I've read quite a few people argue quite a few times.

And being a finance guy you should know that PPP is worthless in international trade as prices are denominated in national selling prices, they are denominated in the negotiation between what the buyer and seller are willing to part with.

I can't see FN accepting Pakistan's production price as the basis for its selling cost.

I only mentioned PPP 'cause we're the 21st largest economy as per PPP while the 40th something in nominal terms !

You just have to rub it in....!

It's going to be gibberish to most people, especially those without military service. I know you're not this ignorant, but I'll explain anyways.

Bipod - the legs on the front that stabilize the rifle

Brass catcher - a module that collects spend ammo casings.

Oh, and sorry for being so serious, I get like this when I'm bored. Friday night and I've nothing to do!

I've seen the bipod thing in some of Pakistan Army's pictures but thats with those machine type things not battle rifles so I thought maybe it was something else !

Friday night and nothing to do ?

Dinner anyone...?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Excuse my ignorance but why can't POF build a rifle of our own design?

valid question.
it does produce some clones and some under licence but there are market leaders that offer the advantage that POF cant offer at the moment

 

[Fenrir]

@Technogaianist just noticed, congrats on the professional tag...

Thanks. But offer your appreciation to Armstrong, his lobbying had an important role to play too. I'll try my best to offer high quality info regarding military "stuff," but mostly I'll be post pics since I've a short attention span.