Pakistan’s private defence industry clashes with government over regulations

[jupiter2007]

IF we have a sigsauer type of private defense company in Pakistan, I would consider investing in it.


List of private companies in USA were awarded DoD contract to manufacture small arms.

1. Alliant Techsystems – Total Value: $21,977,118,613
2. DRS Technologies Inc. – Total Value: $ 3,251,224,478
3. BAE Systems Inc. – Total Value: $2,761,670,581
4. Knight’s Armament Company – Total Value: $ 1,782,974,456
5. General Dynamics – Total Value: $ 1,626,048,701
6. Colt’s Manufacturing Company – Total Value: $1,372,567,795
7. FN Herstal – Total Value: $995,194,319
8. Insight Technologies Inc. – Total Value: $790,071,945
9. Olin Corp – Total Value: $ 612,415,840
10. American Ordnance LLC. – Total Value: $483,022,354

 

[JamD]

A good writeup of how to do defence industry right:

https://www.gbreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Turkey-Aerospace-2016-Online-Version.pdf

Anyone that has time should read the entire document and look at what it takes to develop an industry.

 

[JamD]

A good writeup of how to do defence industry right:View attachment 648362

https://www.gbreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Turkey-Aerospace-2016-Online-Version.pdf

Anyone that has time should read the entire document and look at what it takes to develop an industry.

@Bossman please read the pdf if you have the time.

 

[S.Y.A]

Also, dont forget that they still think that electrical engg and electronics engg are two different things and that electrical = power engg. Thus leaving out a lot of capable candidates from nust, comsats etc. And also the bs NOC policy if one wants to apply from another govt org.

 

[JamD]

Also, dont forget that they still think that electrical engg and electronics engg are two different things and that electrical = power engg. Thus leaving out a lot of capable candidates from nust, comsats etc. And also the bs NOC policy if one wants to apply from another govt org.

In IST for the first 9 batches we had something called "Communication Systems Engineering". The trouble was nobody knew what that meant and only SUPARCO hired these people (who made that name of the degree in the first place lol), or they went abroad because foreign schools actually saw what you knew. From the 10th batch onward they changed the name to electrical engineering to increase their student's employability. Just a loosely related anecdote I wanted to share

 

[Bossman]

IF we have a sigsauer type of private defense company in Pakistan, I would consider investing in it.


List of private companies in USA were awarded DoD contract to manufacture small arms.

1. Alliant Techsystems – Total Value: $21,977,118,613
2. DRS Technologies Inc. – Total Value: $ 3,251,224,478
3. BAE Systems Inc. – Total Value: $2,761,670,581
4. Knight’s Armament Company – Total Value: $ 1,782,974,456
5. General Dynamics – Total Value: $ 1,626,048,701
6. Colt’s Manufacturing Company – Total Value: $1,372,567,795
7. FN Herstal – Total Value: $995,194,319
8. Insight Technologies Inc. – Total Value: $790,071,945
9. Olin Corp – Total Value: $ 612,415,840
10. American Ordnance LLC. – Total Value: $483,022,354

Closest you have is Daudsons

 

[Zulfiqar]

As long as we have PPRA crap, we won't be able to succeed in evolving the defence sector.

About the security clearance issue highlighted by a member. Let me tell you a story in light of COVID.

Some construction projects are on halt in strat orgs because the contractors had to let go off labour ( because they were not receiving any payment from strat orgs). Now that the strat orgs want the contractor to start the work again then they can't start it again readily because he has to hire labour again and the labour can't start work again till their security is cleared (which will take eons). Now the same strat orgs will recall the guarantees e.t.c owing to lack of performance when in fact those same orgs were responsible for red tape.

1.) the sophistication of our security clearance, whether by the MOD or ISI or SPD or whoever, is quite low relative to international standards; psychological evaluations are relatively basic (you can imagine the quality of most govt/mil psychologists --- newsflash: they aren't Harvard PhDs) and there is limited capacity to know what anyone was up to while they were abroad

Reminds me of a visit by a team some years ago to our house for the periodical sec clearance of my father (even though my father worked with the same org for 2 decades and it was his last yr and this was apart from his 2 decade army stint).

They asked my father the same questions that they asked years ago (about his postings, relatives e.t.c). They clearly need to evolve their modus operandi.

 

[S.Y.A]

In IST for the first 9 batches we had something called "Communication Systems Engineering". The trouble was nobody knew what that meant and only SUPARCO hired these people (who made that name of the degree in the first place lol), or they went abroad because foreign schools actually saw what you knew. From the 10th batch onward they changed the name to electrical engineering to increase their student's employability. Just a loosely related anecdote I wanted to share

Same mindset in nescom, suparco, paec etc. All one can say is that they are living the past.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A good writeup of how to do defence industry right:View attachment 648362

https://www.gbreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Turkey-Aerospace-2016-Online-Version.pdf

Anyone that has time should read the entire document and look at what it takes to develop an industry.

I think with Turkey, the idea was basically:

1. If you've got to import, then tie it to a targeted offset that gets a respectable % of the work to the private sector. The original OEM will also now see your private sector as a potential source for inputs for non-Turkish contracts (and in Turkey's case, these OEMs did start buying from Turkey for 3rd-party deals).

2. Now the private sector has capacity, you can contract them directly for your next set of needs. Yes, they'll probably still import and work with a foreign supplier, but at least they have incentive (thanks to the renewed contracts) to localize more content. Why? Because they're profit driven entities, the more they localize, the less they'll spend overseas and a bigger profit they'll get from Turkish contracts.

3. Now you've got a fairly capable private sector (with output capacity and a stronger R&D base thanks to localization efforts), see if you can ask them to design complex stuff -- like inputs for turboshaft engines.

So, how long did it Turkey? They kicked-off around 2000-2005, so it took them 15 years to get to this point. It's not too late for us. Just remember, it took Turkey 15 years to cover all of these bases. I think we can show good results in a few areas within 3-5 years due to the extant capacity already there (but underutilized, silo-ed, etc at present).

 

[R Wing]

As long as we have PPRA crap, we won't be able to succeed in evolving the defence sector.

About the security clearance issue highlighted by a member. Let me tell you a story in light of COVID.

Some construction projects are on halt in strat orgs because the contractors had to let go off labour ( because they were not receiving any payment from strat orgs). Now that the strat orgs want the contractor to start the work again then they can't start it again readily because he has to hire labour again and the labour can't start work again till their security is cleared (which will take eons). Now the same strat orgs will recall the guarantees e.t.c owing to lack of performance when in fact those same orgs were responsible for red tape.




Reminds me of a visit by a team some years ago to our house for the periodical sec clearance of my father (even though my father worked with the same org for 2 decades and it was his last yr and this was apart from his 2 decade army stint).

They asked my father the same questions that they asked years ago (about his postings, relatives e.t.c). They clearly need to evolve their modus operandi.

The "clearance" is just the same questions over and over. It's a cruel joke!

 

[denel]

Also, dont forget that they still think that electrical engg and electronics engg are two different things and that electrical = power engg. Thus leaving out a lot of capable candidates from nust, comsats etc. And also the bs NOC policy if one wants to apply from another govt org.

Amazing.

Electronic engineering comes later as a specialisation; first core is electrical engineering.

Same mindset in nescom, suparco, paec etc. All one can say is that they are living the past.

and who will be 'directing' - someone from army or airforce with no mindset in actual work.

A good writeup of how to do defence industry right:View attachment 648362

https://www.gbreports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Turkey-Aerospace-2016-Online-Version.pdf

Anyone that has time should read the entire document and look at what it takes to develop an industry.

Dr Sami is a well accredit fellow and has built an excellent departments with multiple areas of focus.

If you really want to know how to innovate, then please see the work being done in the isreali defence industry. Phenomenal is the least we can say. There is R&D and incubators for any ideas - no idea is useless. Working with my colleagues and friends at Elta was the best time of my life.

I am glad someone is willing to challenge the status quo and demand the dodo birds sitting on top to be removed and go and do their regular job. Let engineers innovate and move forward. Casing point - there is not a single service pistol that is locally designed and produced that has been adopted for police/army/airforce service.

 

[S.Y.A]

Amazing.

Electronic engineering comes later as a specialisation; first core is electrical engineering.

exactly. people here do not understand this.

and who will be 'directing' - someone from army or airforce with no mindset in actual work.

or a yes man, who has been promoted and who also doesnt know how to do anything.

 

[jupiter2007]

Closest you have is Daudsons

What is there Total Value???

 

[RedHulk]

Problem is that the military establishment want total control even on private defence sector. So if you are thinking of doing something they should know and the project need to be under their observation. So they only allow those who agree with their terms. In other countries corporate secrets are never revealed but here we have a mindset that do it our way otherwise pack your stuff.

This reminds me one of my recent post which was instantly deleted from this forum where I said DG ISPR shouldn't have issued statement in response to Indian media. We have to broaden our minds. We need to think out of box. That means some times you have to take it from others perspective. Other might have something which you might have not thought.
So back to private defence industry. i think before making prototype instead of issuing NOC to companies, the companies should sign consent for safety and other regulations. After successful prototype trials then govt need to issue NOC for local manufacturing or for export.

 

[denel]

Problem is that the military establishment want total control even on private defence sector. So if you are thinking of doing something they should know and the project need to be under their observation. So they only allow those who agree with their terms. In other countries corporate secrets are never revealed but here we have a mindset that do it our way otherwise pack your stuff.

That is the problem. Tunnel vision and lack of foresight; this is exactly what kills innovation.