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Pakistan's Pashtuns Feel More Alone Than Ever

And you really think that they would fight for you as mindless robots without eyeing the seat of power? Please buddy. Whom are you kidding? Taliban tasted power for so many years and after that you think they will want to continue as your junior partners? Look what a mess they're making out of your country. Hundreds have been killed by these bandits or their off-shoots in your country as well as ours.

Once any terrorist organization tastes power, it will fight at any cost to take it back, especially the barbaric rule that Talibans imposed on Afghanistan. It is as bad or even worse than Cambodia's Khmer Rouge communists.

How many times is it gonna be cleared to Indian members, that Taliban and TTP are different thing with different objectives, different leaders. Yeah some members may have been from the past, but majority of the TTP is composed of new generation members who have nothing with the Afghan Jihad or the Taliban of Afghanistan.

And Taliban tasted power for hardly 5 years, plus what power did they had in reality ?? A destroyed country which the destroyed more.
 
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How many times is it gonna be cleared to Indian members, that Taliban and TTP are different thing with different objectives, different leaders. Yeah some members may have been from the past, but majority of the TTP is composed of new generation members who have nothing with the Afghan Jihad or the Taliban of Afghanistan.

And Taliban tasted power for hardly 5 years, plus what power did they had in reality ?? A destroyed country which the destroyed more.
DO you actually think that they considered their rule as a "destroyed country"? This is where you Pakistanis go wrong again and again. To the Taliban, Afghanistan where every fibre and every plant and every single molecule in a human being moves according to their wish is heaven for them. Before US entered in with guns blazing, there was no reform, no change and nothing done about the dilapidated state of the country.

Forget technology, people weren't even allowed to clap as according to Taliban it was "anti-islamic"! Imagine that! Are you comfortable with such a rule? Perhaps because most Taliban supporters live far away or totally out of the shadow of their beloved "revolutionaries". It is easy to talk when sitting under a civil administration than to live day and night under mindless monsters like them.

What Afghan jihad are you talking about? Against NATO? NATO might have selfish objectives but how many Afghans ran away for refuge to their countries do you know that? Europe, America, northern Europe; is crammed with Afghans who wanted to live as humans and not as mindless dead bodies under Taliban rule.

You have to stop thinking that Taliban is the only way Pakistan can rule Afghanistan because this will only pull you more and more into the war. You might want to play covert games but CIA MI6 etc are also not amateurs and have far greater resources.

This support to Taliban will cause more hell for your political establishment whether civilian or military. Desist from supporting these guys who threaten the very fabric of civilized world.
 
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DO you actually think that they considered their rule as a "destroyed country"? This is where you Pakistanis go wrong again and again. To the Taliban, Afghanistan where every fibre and every plant and every single molecule in a human being moves according to their wish is heaven for them.

This thread is about Pakistan's Pashtuns, so I don't want to go too off-topic with this Afghan Taliban thing, but just wanted to clear up a point.

The Taliban actually started out as a resistance movement against the brutality of the warlords. Mullah Omar came to fame as the liberator of some youngsters kidnapped by a powerful warlord and he gained support as a champion of justice. It was only later, when the Wahabbis came to town, that the Taliban got infused with their extremist, misogynistic ideology. So it is possible to de-link the two again.
 
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This thread is about Pakistan's Pashtuns, so I don't want to go too off-topic with this Afghan Taliban thing, but just wanted to clear up a point.

The Taliban actually started out as a resistance movement against the brutality of the warlords. Mullah Omar came to fame as the liberator of some youngsters kidnapped by a powerful warlord and he gained support as a champion of justice. It was only later, when the Wahabbis came to town, that the Taliban got infused with their extremist, misogynistic ideology. So it is possible to de-link the two again.

No its not possible.Atleast highly impossible.

We have a saying in Tamil - "Ratha Rusi kanda poona,ada vidathu" which literally transalates as " A cat that has got used to the taste of blood will not like milk again".
 
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This thread is about Pakistan's Pashtuns, so I don't want to go too off-topic with this Afghan Taliban thing, but just wanted to clear up a point.

The Taliban actually started out as a resistance movement against the brutality of the warlords. Mullah Omar came to fame as the liberator of some youngsters kidnapped by a powerful warlord and he gained support as a champion of justice. It was only later, when the Wahabbis came to town, that the Taliban got infused with their extremist, misogynistic ideology. So it is possible to de-link the two again.

I read this Op-Ed yesterday in New York Times. I suggest everybody else here does too



Turning the Taliban Against Al Qaeda

FOR the last week there have been widespread news reports that NATO is facilitating talks between the Afghan government and Taliban leaders, even as it routs Taliban forces from their main stronghold in Kandahar. The United States plan seems clear: allow for “preliminary” talks to end the war through a broad-based “reconciliation” process, but don’t get serious about a deal until beefed-up coalition forces have gained the initiative on the battlefield.

Yet, despite assertions by senior NATO officials that they can defeat the Taliban militarily if given enough money and men, and that military pressure will start the Taliban thinking about alternatives to fighting, the surge in southern Afghanistan appears only to have expanded the scope of the Taliban’s activity and entrenched their resolve to fight on until America tires and leaves.

In truth, the real pressure to show that there is light at the end of the tunnel is not on the Taliban, but the United States, so it can start drawing down troops next year as President Obama has pledged. This is why NATO and Washington are only now openly discussing the talks, although they have been going on in fits and starts for years. True, some senior Taliban leaders are playing along — but this is not so much because they fear defeat at the hands of the Americans, but because they worry that their new generation of midlevel commanders is getting out of control.

Washington’s goals officially remain those stated by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton: to strengthen Afghan Army forces and to “reintegrate” the supposedly “moderate” Taliban, that is, fighters who will consent to lay down arms and respect the Afghan Constitution, including its Western-inspired provisions to respect human rights and equality of women in the public sphere.

Yet in nine years of war, no significant group of Taliban has opted for reintegration (a few individuals have come in, only to return to the Taliban when it again was in their interest). Moreover, coalition military personnel know that there isn’t a single Afghan Army brigade that can hold its own against Taliban troops.

Ten months into the new NATO push in Afghanistan, 2010 is the bloodiest year yet of the war. Insurgent attacks are up more than 60 percent compared with last year, according to the United Nations. The estimated number of Taliban has increased some tenfold since the aftermath of their defeat by coalition forces in 2001. Taliban troops now roam large areas in northern and eastern Afghanistan, far beyond the traditional Pashtun provinces of the south.

The United States claims to have killed thousands of Taliban in recent months, mostly foot soldiers and midlevel commanders.

But those 25-year-old foot soldiers are being replaced by teenage fighters, and the 35-year-old midlevel commanders by 20-something students straight out of the religious schools called madrasas, which are the only form of education available in many rural areas.

These younger commanders and their fiercely loyal fighters are increasingly removed from the dense networks of tribal kinship and patronage, or qawm, and especially of friendship born of common experiences, or andiwali, that bind together the top figures in the established insurgent groups like the Quetta Shura and the Haqqani network.

Indeed, it is primarily through andiwali — overlapping bonds of family, schooling, years together in camps, combat service, business partnership — that talks between the adversaries, including representatives of Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan’s president, and Mullah Omar, the Taliban’s ultimate leader, have continued over the years.

These new Taliban warriors, however, are increasingly independent, ruthless and unwilling to compromise with foreign infidels and their associates. They yearn to fight, and describe battle as going on vacation from the long, boring interludes of training and waiting between engagements. They claim they will fight to the death as long as any foreign soldiers remain, even if only in military bases.

AS with the older Taliban, their ideology — a peculiar blend of pan-Islamic Shariah law and Pashtun customs — is “not for sale,” as one leader told a Times reporter. But the new cohort increasingly decides how these beliefs are imposed on the ground: recently the Quetta Shura sent a Muslim scholar to chastise a group of youthful commanders in Paktia Province who were not following Mullah Omar’s directives; they promptly killed him.

Hardly anyone who calls himself “Taliban” (an umbrella term for fractious Pashtun tribesmen who collectively hate the foreign invaders enough to turn even traditional enemies into friends) considers the American conditions for reintegration as anything other than comical.

To get the tribesmen to lay down arms that have sustained them for decades against a host of powerful invaders is about as likely as getting the National Rifle Association to support a repeal of the Second Amendment. The separation of men and women in the public sphere is at the foundation of Pashtun tribal life, along with the duty to protect guests.

So why hold talks at all? Because there is a good chance that the Taliban can be persuaded to cut ties with Al Qaeda and offer some sort of guarantee that President Karzai won’t be left hanging from a lamppost when the Americans leave (as President Muhammad Najibullah, the puppet Afghan leader of the 1980s, was after the Soviets fled). The veteran correspondent Arnaud de Borchgrave recently told me that when he met with Mullah Omar shortly before 9/11, he was “stunned by the hostility” the mullah expressed for Osama bin Laden.

Indeed, there is strong evidence that in the late 1990s Mullah Omar tried to crack down on Mr. bin Laden’s activities — confiscating his cellphone, putting him under house arrest and forbidding him to talk to the press or issue fatwas. But then, as the Taliban were deliberating about how to “disinvite” their troublesome guest after 9/11, the United States invaded, bombing them into a closer alliance with Al Qaeda.

Likewise, it should be possible to drive a wedge between Al Qaeda and the Haqqanis. The group’s leader, Jalaluddin Haqqani, was once called “goodness personified” by Representative Charlie Wilson, the great patron of the Afghan mujahedeen. During the Soviet occupation, he was a principal conduit of funds between Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence and the Islamic rebels, and remains a key link between Pakistan and the Afghan Taliban.

Although some Haqqani leaders now profess loyalty to Mullah Omar and probably continue to harbor members of Al Qaeda, this is most likely a manifestation of the tradition of sanctuary and the Afghan tribal dictum that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” What’s more, the Haqqanis have many long-standing andiwali ties with Mr. Karzai’s tribe, the Popalzai, which could be exploited in negotiations.

Indeed, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar — a Taliban leader with close links to the Haqqanis who is in Pakistani custody, but is thought to be involved with the current talks — is himself a member of the Popalzai and once saved Mr. Karzai’s life.

With no real hopes for a breakthrough in negotiations, the Pentagon’s current thinking seems to be to keep troop levels up for at least a few months after President Obama’s declared June 2011 drawdown date, to show the Taliban that the force and the will to beat them will remain if they don’t come to the table. But this isn’t likely to impress any Taliban, who can simply wait us out.

The smarter move would be to turn the current shadow-play about talks into serious negotiations right now.

The older Taliban leaders might well drop their support for Osama bin Laden if Western troops were no longer there to unite them. The Haqqanis, too, are exclusively interested in their homeland, not global jihad, and will discard anyone who interferes in their lives.

No Haqqanis joined Al Qaeda before 9/11, because they couldn’t stand Arabs telling them how to pray and fight.


The problem now, for the Taliban leaders, the Afghan government, its Western backers and Pakistan, is that the main “success” of the recent surge — killing thousands of Taliban foot soldiers and midlevel commanders — may create a whirlwind that no one will be able to control.








Scott Atran, an anthropologist at France’s National Center for Scientific Research, the University of Michigan and John Jay College, is the author of “Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood and the (Un)making of Terrorists.”





http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/opinion/27atran.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1



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I read this Op-Ed yesterday in New York Times. I suggest everybody else here does too



Turning the Taliban Against Al Qaeda

If this is true..then its nothing but a Guy Ritchie kinda twist in the screenplay.

Even then,will the Taliban be the same ultra-conservative,misogynistic,violent one that they were before the Americans invaded.

That is the most important question.?
 
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i guess it goes down to how backed in the corner they are.....ideally-speaking, subsequent to withdrawal they will have a reconciliatory ''re-awakening'' environment among Afghan society -regardless of tribal or ethnic loyalties or realities.

There must be an assurance that Karzai and his cohorts will not meet violence or harassment. Otherwise, it won't be a very good start.

All foreign fighters in Afghanistan should be deported to their country of origin. If they refuse, they should either be detained and deported, or they should be shot if they resist. That's my own opinion though.

I pray for a just and sustainable solution, so that 4-5 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan can be repatriated.
 
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Why do Pashtuns hate Hazaras soo much? I mean i just don't get why soo much haterd....

It might be historical.

Hazaras are said to the Mongol left overs. Mongols slaughtered many people in Afghanistan. Maybe that hatred just stayed and was pasted down.
 
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historical, political...but such a generalized statement is of little merit.

Come to Kurram Agency sometime --there's a village in Upper Kurram, village name is Badama. Many many Hazaras residing there; my late uncle's wife is Hazara.

they get along quite well with the Pakhtuns; in fact they even speak Pakhto. I don't know how it is on Afghan side, but then again that's not my issue or concern.
 
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Well said abu zolfiqar... i am urdu speaking, im fluent in Punjabi but don't know any Pakhto. But I am so fascinated by Pakhtun culture, and I love reading about the people/culture and region of FATA and KPK, as well as visiting it. I have a dream, to one day go through the Khyber Pass into Afghanistan, when the violence ends, and InshAllah it will very soon.

I must say, PDF has taught me so much, and in everyday life about Pakhtun culture, I must express my gratitude to everyone here. As ethnicity is a complete non-issue for me, I don't raise it with any Pakistani (being Muslim and Pakistani is enough for me). But I am very inquisitive about Pakhtun culture, and I love Pakistani Pakhtuns so much. I am so proud of having people like Kiyani, Shahid Afridi, former country leaders, ISI chiefs and other influential Pakhtun leaders, who are proud to call themselves proud Pakistanis. I have so much love for Pakhtuns and all the minorities of Pakistan. Being a Pakistani 'Muhajir' Shia, even though I'm technically a 'minority' group, I have never felt alienated in Pakistan the time I was there or felt like a 'Muhajir', and I wish no other Pakistani feels like that.

That being said, Pakistani Pakhtuns have faced so much hardship from terrorist groups infiltrating the Afghan border into Pakistan, illegal refugees, drone attacks etc; yet their love for Pakistan has never diminished, and there is not a single separatist movement in KPK or FATA. That is why I have an extra bit of love and pride for Pakhtuns, even more than for my 'Muhajir' brothers, and my home is always open for them. Pakhtuns as a ethnic group are in very good condition in all over Pakistan though, and I am proud of my Pakistani Pakhtun brothers for coming out here and countering all this Afghan nationalism propaganda spewed out by Afghan Pashtun nationalists... it can be a little disheartening reading their comments of splitting Pakistan by 'freeing' KPK and FATA from Pakistan.
 
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