Pakistan's NSA sees ‘greater design’ behind US support for India's NSG membership

[R Wing]

Nah, we'll take what we can get and then run away.



So that's not an arms race.

Nobody is referring to absolute parity when they say "arms race" --- it simply means the cyclical development of arms (including nukes) in response to another country.

 

[randomradio]

Nobody is referring to absolute parity when they say "arms race" --- it simply means the cyclical development of arms (including nukes) in response to another country.

That's not an arms race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

 

[volatile]

when did i said only USA and India have mutually benficial interests in each other ... see USA is a hyper power and we have China which has constantly harmed our interests so we need someone which can make us strong so china stop its double game on us with help of proxies

Care to explain Chinese proxies ? as well as how China has harmed Indian interest .

 

[R Wing]

That's not an arms race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

Pretty sure the original/literal definition does not apply to every single situation (though some argue that it does apply to nuclear stockpiles / warheads between India and Pakistan while others don't see a correlation).

The term is often used more flexibly and in a variety of contexts.

 

[Piper]

India shouldn't get too smug about the fact that the US is overlooking all of its issues simply because it needs to prop it up as a counterweight to China in the region.

My advice to India would be not to buy into this illusion and learn from Pakistan's experience --- what happens when US interests change and suddenly Modi is back to being a blacklisted thug and support of various terror movements (Baloch, Tamil, etc.) are highlighted day and night by the NYT and others? It ain't pretty!



I believe we can easily maintain our minimum defensive deterrent in the face of an aggressive neighbor. It's not about absolute numbers, remember..

Your concern for India is indeed touching Behold the big bad wolf harassing the innocent Pakistani sheep

 

[randomradio]

Pretty sure the original/literal definition does not apply to every single situation (though some argue that it does apply to nuclear stockpiles / warheads between India and Pakistan while others don't see a correlation).

The term is often used more flexibly and in a variety of contexts.

Arms race is exactly as as the term indicates, it's a 'race'. And even in the nuclear field, it affects many things, not just the number of warheads, it also includes delivery systems like aircraft and missiles.

There is no chance of an arms race happening because Pak cannot afford it. So the arms race excuse is meaningless. The fact is India's entry into the NSG only makes India a legitimate nuclear power, but it brings no change to the current setup. India can import uranium from most countries now.

Even when it comes to nuclear warheads, Pakistan is already making nukes as fast as it can, so there is no arms race there either.

 

[R Wing]

Your concern for India is indeed touching Behold the big bad wolf harassing the innocent Pakistani sheep

Don't need your petty sarcasm here.

I believe what I described is the typical cycle of the US selectively choosing to prop up and/or isolate (when needed) various countries. Dictatorship is bad when they want it to be but great when they want to sell arms --- and so on. The signs are always the same --- look out for the NYT editorials

If you have something meaningful to add, please do!

 

[randomradio]

Your concern for India is indeed touching Behold the big bad wolf harassing the innocent Pakistani sheep

People love to hyphenate India and Pakistan so much that they think just because India is friendly to the US now, India will see the same fate as Pakistan.

One word for it: Denial.

 

[R Wing]

Arms race is exactly as as the term indicates, it's a 'race'. And even in the nuclear field, it affects many things, not just the number of warheads, it also includes delivery systems like aircraft and missiles.

There is no chance of an arms race happening because Pak cannot afford it. So the arms race excuse is meaningless. The fact is India's entry into the NSG only makes India a legitimate nuclear power, but it brings no change to the current setup. India can import uranium from most countries now.

Even when it comes to nuclear warheads, Pakistan is already making nukes as fast as it can, so there is no arms race there either.

I agree with your overall assessment --- but I think you're obsessing a bit too much on how the term "arms race" is used.

I suppose what you're saying is that the Pakistan-India rivalry should not be seen as an arms race, just as the India-China shouldn't (in either case, the latter is superior in absolute terms on most metrics)?

People love to hyphenate India and Pakistan so much that they think just because India is friendly to the US now, India will see the same fate as Pakistan.

One word for it: Denial.

I didn't say it would --- I said it could. You guys really can't take advice can you

 

[Piper]

Don't need your petty sarcasm here.

I believe what I described is the typical cycle of the US selectively choosing to prop up and/or isolate (when needed) various countries. Dictatorship is bad when they want it to be but great when they want to sell arms --- and so on. The signs are always the same --- look out for the NYT editorials

If you have something meaningful to add, please do!

Why blame US for your own petty weaknesses? US can do nothing if there is no local support. Pakistanis have always loved their messianic dictators so much so that even today you will find more than half the people in this forum advocating for military rule. US just understand what the power equilibrium is and deals directly with the party having most power.

As for NYT editorials, NYT is an independent media platform which is vehement in it's criticism of US policies unlike the Govt sanctioned mouthpieces in China or Russia and increasingly Pakistan too with ISPR taking greater control of media day by day.

 

[Bharat Muslim]

National Security Adviser Lt-Gen (retd) Nasser Janjua

National Security Adviser Lt-Gen (retd) Nasser Janjua is Another Zaid Hamid (the poor conspiracy theorist). Pakistan has lots of them.

@R Wing

 

[randomradio]

I agree with your overall assessment --- but I think you're obsessing a bit too much on how the term "arms race" is used.

I suppose what you're saying is that the Pakistan-India rivalry should not be seen as an arms race,

What do you think is an arms race then? What special things will Pak do to initiate an arms race if India becomes part of NSG?

What I am saying is Pak cannot afford an arms race. And this advantage for India will last for as long as India or Pak exist. There is not even a single field where Pak can get into an arms race with India. But since you are so sure, then you will have to give examples.

just as the India-China shouldn't (in either case, the latter is superior in absolute terms on most metrics)?

Nope. In the high tech sector, both China and India are at the same level. Where the Chinese have an advantage is the pace of modernization from the lowest rungs, ours has not started yet.

India's biggest advantage is India only needs to counter China, Pakistan will automatically get countered, but China has to counter the US and Russia apart from India, which is much harder. So China being superior to India is meaningless in China's case.

 

[R Wing]

Why blame US for your own petty weaknesses? US can do nothing if there is no local support. Pakistanis have always loved their messianic dictators so much so that even today you will find more than half the people in this forum advocating for military rule. US just understand what the power equilibrium is and deals directly with the party having most power.

As for NYT editorials, NYT is an independent media platform which is vehement in it's criticism of US policies unlike the Govt sanctioned mouthpieces in China or Russia and increasingly Pakistan too with ISPR taking greater control of media day by day.

Yes, and the US is a global champion of human rights, India doesn't use militant proxies and pots of gold are found under rainbows! I do agree that the NYT is certainly more independent than some of the Chinese/Russian papers, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't serve US interests when the US "establishment" really needs it to.

Where did I blame the US for our weaknesses?

I was not even referring to Pakistan --- I was referring to global US double standards i.e. they'll ignore serious issues in countries that they need (to buy arms, to counter other countries, etc.) while criticizing countries it wants to pressurize/isolate with the very same allegations (as an example, Pakistani support of militants proxies gets a lot of attention, but Indian support of militant proxies does not).

 

[R Wing]

What do you think is an arms race then? What special things will Pak do to initiate an arms race if India becomes part of NSG?

What I am saying is Pak cannot afford an arms race. And this advantage for India will last for as long as India or Pak exist. There is not even a single field where Pak can get into an arms race with India. But since you are so sure, then you will have to give examples.



Nope. In the high tech sector, both China and India are at the same level. Where the Chinese have an advantage is the pace of modernization from the lowest rungs, ours has not started yet.

India's biggest advantage is India only needs to counter China, Pakistan will automatically get countered, but China has to counter the US and Russia apart from India, which is much harder. So China being superior to India is meaningless in China's case.

1.) Pakistan can't afford an arms race with India.
As I've mentioned multiple times, Pakistan is not trying to maintain absolute parity. It is simply maintaining a minimum defensive deterrence which is proving effective at containing Indian aggression.

2.) China and India being at parity.
Wow, are you serious? Have you compared defense budgets? Have you seen their indigenous military tech? This would require opening another thread --- pls do if you're interested in delving into this, though it will be an embarrassing exercise. The recent Chinese supercomputer is leaps and bounds ahead of the current best US effort. If you are pushing the narrative that Pakistan shouldn't compare itself with India, then India certainly should not compare itself with China (at least between India and Pakistan there is a massive difference in size; with China, you don't even have that excuse).

3.) India "automatically" counters Pakistan because India is in an arms race with China; yet China will not automatically counter India because China is in an arms race with more developed countries.
This makes no sense. If China is aiming to counter countries with vastly more technologically advanced Armed Forces than India's, I'm sure India will get countered too.

 

[unbiasedopinion]

Pakistan is upset at the US decision to aggressively campaign for India while ignoring Islamabad’s aspirations to become an NSG member. Last month, Pakistan formally applied for a membership of the NSG, setting the stage for a showdown with India at the group’s plenary session that began on Monday in Seoul.

This is the reason why US cannot propose Pakistan into NSG, and Pakistan and China knows it. Just making a joke for themselves

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...rea-and-china-knows-it-us-sources-say.436003/