Pakistan's newest threat: Army officer turns suicide bomber

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Interesting caption!

 

[Neo]

Kya sher hai yaar. Wah Wah..

Yeh koi sher nahi, Urdu adab ka janaza hai...
But I had a good laugh though..

 

[dabong1]

When you accuse the Army of "murdering hundreds if not thousands" in the LM and then "lying" about it to cover up their "excesses", you have already defamed the Army - When you accuse them of "murdering innocent Tribals, destroying entire villages and hiding the truth about collateral damage" in FATA, you have already tarnished their reputation. So if you really care about the institution, then back up your claims with evidence, instead of spouting ideologically driven conspiracy theories. I don't have a problem condemning the Army for whatever excesses it may have comitted, but I need evidence before I am convinced.

By the way, your first link did not work, the reporter in your second link based his entire stoy upon the observation of one person who claimed to have seen "a pile of bodies". The GoP reported 70 militants killed, can that "pile" possibly have been those killed in the action? People aren't the size of a can of peas you know. Pure BS speculation. There has been nothing concrete to substantiate the allegation of a thousand people killed.

Your other argument about the discrepancy in number of reported people inside the LM, and those killed at the end, is more reflective of the failure of our Intel (yet again) than any conspiracy. The government was for the most part basing its estimates on what the Bradran were spouting, at the end it turned out that Abdul rashid was lying about how many people he had hostage, probably to put pressure on the GoP to not initiate an op.

If hundreds or thousands of people had been killed, and obviously buried secretly, where are their parents or relatives? The number of people looking for their family members in LM never even got close to the numbers suggested by "conspiracy nuts".

As i said before,i have proved you wrong on every occasion but if your brainwashed not to accept anything except what the state barks at you...fair enough.
You are beyond hope......i betyour loving this with your indian friends.

 

[Always Neutral]

one thing i agree with Dabong, Armies world wide cover up the truth so Pakistani Army cannot be any different. Remember the Pat Tillman case of the US army in afghanistan ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As i said before,i have proved you wrong on every occasion but if your brainwashed not to accept anything except what the state barks at you...fair enough.
You are beyond hope......i betyour loving this with your indian friends.

I have no problem accepting I am wrong - as long as you can substantiate your claims. So for the umpteenth time, provide something other than half baked conspiracy theories. Please provide links to all these occasions where you have "proved me wrong" - that statement implies the need for "proof", is it finally going to show up?

one thing i agree with Dabong, Armies world wide cover up the truth so Pakistani Army cannot be any different. Remember the Pat Tillman case of the US army in afghanistan ?

Yes and you could also generalize and say that "people all over the world sin, and tend to hide their sins" - but It doesn't mean that every individual has committed rape or murder. Armies are made of people, and people are fallible, so of course their are going to be instances where excesses might be committed, but what is being implied here is something along the lines of a Tiananmen Square or My Lai. I find it hard to believe that something along those magnitudes could be hidden easily, considering how hostile the Pakistani press and media is towards Musharraf currently. Their Pashtun reporters, with connections to the Tribal areas, reported on the abduction of the 250 plus soldiers before anyone else knew what was going on. Atrocities or collateral damage of the sort that is being implied would be cannon fodder for the anti-Musharraf press right now. The fact that no sch stories have surfaced indicates that the Army has for the most part acted with extreme self restraint.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is amazing when noncombatants talk about the killings of thousands dead at Lal Masjid-----that many killed at that location is not easy----it would take a lots of fire power, which was not evident from the firepower used---secondly, for 1000 killed, there would be 2 to 4 times the number of wounded.

A thousand dead bodies are an impossible task to transport out of that given area without being seen. Just carrying the dead bodies from the combat zone and then being placed in trucks and then being transported without being seen would be an impossible task under the given circumstances.

While being transported, blood and gore would ooze out of the trucks and would leave a bloody trail along the way----were any large sealed container type trucks seen leaving the scene of the combat zone. It would take atleast 10 to 20 large container trucks to transport a 1000 plus dead bodies. 100's of people would be needed to load and unload the dead plus time, space and equipment needed to dispose the dead. Even the millitary personale have cell phones----someone must have recorded the pictures on their cell phone cameras or would have video taped them as well.

 

[Mujahid]

MastanKhan,

A logical analysis !!!!!

 

[Always Neutral]

I have no problem accepting I am wrong - as long as you can substantiate your claims. So for the umpteenth time, provide something other than half baked conspiracy theories. Please provide links to all these occasions where you have "proved me wrong" - that statement implies the need for "proof", is it finally going to show up?

Dear AM,

Having been closely involved with the military I assure you, I am right.

Mai Lai - US Army
Ulster - British Army
Pat Tilman - Us Airforce
Blue Star - Indian Army
Kargil - Pakistan Army
Munich Airport - German Army
Killing of innocent Brazilian on the Tube - MI5

All these incidents were reported on the same lines of Lal Masjid but 10 years (except the last one, it took one year) down the line it was found that it was a cover up. Its very important to have an independant commission investigate all such incidents to know the truth.

Best Regards

Personally Let the General

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dear AM,

Having been closely involved with the military I assure you, I am right.

Mai Lai - US Army
Ulster - British Army
Pat Tilman - Us Airforce
Blue Star - Indian Army
Kargil - Pakistan Army
Munich Airport - German Army
Killing of innocent Brazilian on the Tube - MI5

All these incidents were reported on the same lines of Lal Masjid but 10 years (except the last one, it took one year) down the line it was found that it was a cover up. Its very important to have an independant commission investigate all such incidents to know the truth.

Best Regards

Personally Let the General

So the best "proof" is that because certain incidents were "covered up" by certain armies in the past, you can conclude that the LM and Waziristan op. were too? That is extremely speculative and a bit of a fallacious argument.The SC is looking into the matter of the LM, so we shall see if some new "facts" do indeed come out, However I find it telling that the "missing persons case", also in the SC, has a list that so far does not include any significant number of people who would have been "missing" from the LM, if the GoP had indeed massacred hundreds and buried their bodies secretly.

There have been other objections raised by various people (recently Mastan Khan, and as Mujahid pointed out the Brasstacks analysis) that you could attempt to explain to support your argument. But barring new revelations, the army should be given the benefit of the doubt - innocent till proved guilty as you say.

With respect to the Waziristan issue, there is no dearth of sources and connections for the national media to exploit if they wanted the "truth" about "collateral damage" to come out. Every clash between the SF's and the militants is typically verified by the media through contacts with both the militants and other Tribals in the area - so much so that the militant version is actually getting better coverage than our lead footed ISPR one.

LM was a controlled environment, FATA is not, so there should be no death of reports documenting these alleged "atrocities" in FATA at least.

 

[Always Neutral]

So the best "proof" is that because certain incidents were "covered up" by certain armies in the past, you can conclude that the LM and Waziristan op. were too? That is extremely speculative and a bit of a fallacious argument.The SC is looking into the matter of the LM, so we shall see if some new "facts" do indeed come out, However I find it telling that the "missing persons case", also in the SC, has a list that so far does not include any significant number of people who would have been "missing" from the LM, if the GoP had indeed massacred hundreds and buried their bodies secretly.

LM was a controlled environment, FATA is not, so there should be no death of reports documenting these alleged "atrocities" in FATA at least.

So why not have an independant commission after any such incident ? If you are right then Gen M has nothing to fear and his credibility will be even higher.

Best Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So why not have an independant commission after any such incident ? If you are right then Gen M has nothing to fear and his credibility will be even higher.

Best Regards

The absence of a commission does not automatically translate to guilt. Every single law enforcement action does not have to be investigated by a commission. Things move at snails pace in South Asia - We may yet see one. Till then the SC will have to suffice.

The entire episode played out pretty clearly right in front of the media anyway. The Mullah's were given enough time to come out. The SC essentially agreed with the governments right to conduct the operation. Almost fifty people were rescued during the actual assault, indicating the SF's were acting with restraint, not shooting at sight, despite coming under heavy fire and taking casualties in the initial part of the op. There has been no evidence in the aftermath of the incident to suggest anything but the GoP's story is true.

Here are a couple of events that the SC was involved in, that added legitimacy to the government's action against the LM:

SC rejects plea for halting Lal Masjid operation ISLAMABAD, July 09 (PPI)​

-
The Supreme Court on Monday rejected a plea to halt the ongoing security forces' operation against Lal Masjid. However, it directed the authorities to facilitate a meeting of seven-member Ulema delegation with Abdul Rasheed Ghazi. On a court query, Attorney General Makhdoom Ali Khan, who appeared on notice assured the court that the protection of those who will surrender would be ensured and they will be dealt with in accordance with the law. The court, however, did not pass any order or observation regarding the appeal of Abdul Rasheed Ghazi seeking safe exit. However, the court said those willing to surrender, may surrender before a District and Sessions Judge. The spokesman of Interior Ministry and Chief of National Crisis Management Cell Brig (r) Javed Iqbal Cheema told the court that government wanted to end the Lal Masjid standoff. He said some wanted extremists are present inside the mosque, who had been keeping hostages to the female and male students. The Acting Chief Justice (ACJ) of Pakistan, Justice Rana Bhagwandas had taken suo motu notice on Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa situation on Monday and constituted two-member bench comprising Justice Muhammad Nawaz Abbasi and Justice Faqir Muhammad Khokhar to hear the case. Justice Muhammad Nawaz Abbasi taking notice of the situation as reported on various TV Channels, had placed the matter before the ACJ for appropriate orders. (Posted @ 21:16 PST)

 

[Always Neutral]

Dear AM,

Again with due respect to you as you come across as a rationale person would you as the PM announce an INDEPENDANT COMMISSION if the foloowing happend ?

Your serving PM at that time said more that 2700 army men died in Kargil when the Gen M said it WAS UNTRUE ?

MRS BB said that the bodies of the soldiers were put on ice and released slowly over a period of 6 months ?

I would be really worried

Best Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dear AM,

Again with due respect to you as you come across as a rationale person would you as the PM announce an INDEPENDANT COMMISSION if the foloowing happend ?

Your serving PM at that time said more that 2700 army men died in Kargil when the Gen M said it WAS UNTRUE ?

MRS BB said that the bodies of the soldiers were put on ice and released slowly over a period of 6 months ?

I would be really worried

Best Regards

Unrelated events and not necessarily independently verifiable due to the nature and location of the conflict (heights of kargil). NS said 2700 in 1999 and 4000 in 2003. He said "no exile" for the last 6 or so years and now its five - he obviously has a problem with numbers and the truth. The Waziristan and LM situation has had thousands of journalists (print and electronic media) and the local population crawling all over it, so it makes the argument of a "cover up" much harder to believe. If, with the amount of attention and scrutiny those two events have gotten, the truth is still not out, I am not sure what will do the trick.

A commission is not going to have magic wand you know, it will essentially have to do the same sort of "investigation" that our reporters are so good at when digging up scandals implicating the government. Funny how not one has been able to get one of their famous "off the record" anonymous statements (unverifiable but something still) implicating the government in any of the atrocities you claim.

An old philosophy line:
"You are claiming that X happened, I say it didn't - I cannot give a negative proof. The burden of proof falls on you, he who is claiming that X happened."

If no proof exists now, then wait. When there is some, you can present it and I'll accept that you were correct if it holds up to scrutiny.