Pakistan's New Fighter Jets Can Change the Balance: The Impact of Pakistan's First...

[paritosh]

the vulcans were like very powerful...and the f-104 had like 6 of them...
pakistan was given these planes without the vulcans and you got them installed later right?

 

[Arsalan]

Then why china made JF-17 if they do not want to use it?

now where the hell did this come from!!! he said that the palne is still under evaluation. different countries have different role to ......
i do not see that from which point of this post you got the stupid idea to make you claim that " CHINAES NOT BUYING IT" donot act as ignorant to make such base less argument!!
this is an informative forum so stop trolling this crap of yours unless you can come up with something usefull!

rehgars!

 

[hj786]

now where the hell did this come from!!! he said that the palne is still under evaluation. different countries have different role to ......
i do not see that from which point of this post you got the stupid idea to make you claim that " CHINAES NOT BUYING IT" donot act as ignorant to make such base less argument!!
this is an informative forum so stop trolling this crap of yours unless you can come up with something usefull!

rehgars!

Just ignore him, he knows the answer.

 

[AzadPakistan]

500 JF 17 Thunder and 40 stealth variation yep I think they can change thing not to mention the F16 + J10 fighters we will have ... and the awacs - 6 of them

India can forget about air superiority the only missing link for Pakistan is S300 system to protect its air defences -

 

[gangwar]

well i have other views.

i wud agree that china wont be buying JFs for 1 simple reason.China is much bigger and prosperous to be in with JFs and J-10.

we wud be foolish if dont understand that all there aircrafts are for countries with lower budget and lesser requirement.Eg:-Bangladesh,Myanmar,Pakistan,Sri-Lanka.

A smart arse wud do exactly what china has done, this is the way u explore yourself in the region to become regional super-power.

China use MKKs.why on hell they wud downgrade themselves to JFs and J-10s.

above all they dont have any budget constraint too to not afford higher version planes.

MORAL:- JFs are only for lesser ones especially for Pakistan, Coz China want to do what USA has been doing for decades.Roast up on India-Pakistan differences. Now they have got an neverending market for their exports.....

other argument is, they made sure pakistan buys it, by involving pakistan in their venture.somebody tell me, is china such a dire need of funds like russia.....

or are chinese technicians of such a need of pakistani scientists? again its

so whats the rational explanation ?

think and say ?

pakistan on the other hand isnt upto level of indian air superiority as of now.hence, pakistan only care bout its defence which can be efficiently provided by JFs, owing to no more support from USA.

China is a big player and it doesnt need to exploit anyone to meet its needs.it doesnt make it good either. it has problems with its neighbours.similarly india has very very good raport with malasia,thailand,singapore,etc,etc.

i just need is to point out the influence expansion policy of china.

bottomlineakistan hasnt developed any expertise to make things of its own! china is a very big factor.....infact china is the biggest factor.ANALYZ PLZ

 

[TOPGUN]

well i have other views.

i wud agree that china wont be buying JFs for 1 simple reason.China is much bigger and prosperous to be in with JFs and J-10.

we wud be foolish if dont understand that all there aircrafts are for countries with lower budget and lesser requirement.Eg:-Bangladesh,Myanmar,Pakistan,Sri-Lanka.

A smart arse wud do exactly what china has done, this is the way u explore yourself in the region to become regional super-power.

China use MKKs.why on hell they wud downgrade themselves to JFs and J-10s.

above all they dont have any budget constraint too to not afford higher version planes.

MORAL:- JFs are only for lesser ones especially for Pakistan, Coz China want to do what USA has been doing for decades.Roast up on India-Pakistan differences. Now they have got an neverending market for their exports.....

other argument is, they made sure pakistan buys it, by involving pakistan in their venture.somebody tell me, is china such a dire need of funds like russia.....

or are chinese technicians of such a need of pakistani scientists? again its

so whats the rational explanation ?

think and say ?

pakistan on the other hand isnt upto level of indian air superiority as of now.hence, pakistan only care bout its defence which can be efficiently provided by JFs, owing to no more support from USA.

China is a big player and it doesnt need to exploit anyone to meet its needs.it doesnt make it good either. it has problems with its neighbours.similarly india has very very good raport with malasia,thailand,singapore,etc,etc.

i just need is to point out the influence expansion policy of china.

bottomlineakistan hasnt developed any expertise to make things of its own! china is a very big factor.....infact china is the biggest factor.ANALYZ PLZ

I don't know how take your post .. but you have said alot yet you seem not know wat you are saying therfore, you are asking many questions wat is your given point so we can respond ?

 

[tiger1313]

I dont think the LCA is a bridge too far, but to say that they have a more mature weapons industry is false.. The limitations on our indrsutry are way more than anyone could imagine. for eg.. ROTAX international is a major supplier of UAV engines. Now if we build a certain UAV and order one engine. The next week it is on the banned list of weapons supplies to us. India however is able to order anything off the shelf and otherwise. and use it, does it make it more mature..certainly, Its using the latest tech which is easily available to it. So the maturity is based on availability. Our Industry thrives on getting the best out of what is available and not embargoed. So keeping that in mind and considering that we still managed to develop a cruise missile out of crashed parts is testament to our engineers. whether is implies that the Indians cant make anything or aren't mature is also a false supposition. And more importantly as I used to assert on many teenage fanboys who are eager to jump in a boast about Pakistan vs India. India is 5 times our size and manpower. They aren't embargoed usually like we are. They have a technologically mature supplier in Russia and now the United states. We are denied most tech, our supplier is one who has just started embracing Quality over quantity. So if there are areas where India develops faster than us then so be it. Its logical and not based on their engineers or scientists being superior. Just having more access and more amicable working environments.
If the MKI is a superior plane then IT IS.. simple. Because they had the access to the tech, they used their vast pool of programmers to integrate the equipment. and so they made it.
Our approach is different, we try to make the best out of what we have, whether that is better than the Indians or not is irrelevant to the fact that it comes close to our requirements. The JF-17 was designed to counter India's all BVR force, Which it will, It is designed to hold its own in WVR, which it does. We aren't looking to patrol the skies of Delhi with impunity. The goal is to contest air superiority over our own skies, disrupt enemy offensive operations. And provide air support to our army. If our new aircraft can achieve this with a marginal degree of success then we should be satisfied.

And as to the JF-17's current status, it has no proper radar as of yet. Weapons have been fired.. but we don't document a lot of things in this country. we'd rather keep quiet about testing something and announce it a year later after we are sure it works fine. Consider that we had a mirage coated with RAM infiltrate Indian airspace way back in 98(heard it from the mouth of the head of AWC)..Nobody got told about it.. because it was just a test, and there was no reason to tell anybody that we violated a country's airspace.

Coming to the usual JF-17 vs LCA discussion. Whether the indians failed 1001 times or were unsuccessful is also said that they learnt a 1001 ways of not doing something that way. So while the LCA may be plagued with teething problems. The next jet the Indians decide to make..wont. They'll remember their mistakes (hopefully.. as both our countrymen have extremely short memories) and wont make them in their next platform.
Also, considering that the LCA is solely designed by the Indians and by its Wikipedia description they tried pushing the envelope too far. This was inevitable that they would stumble. So them seeking help from those who have committed SIMILAR mistakes in the past is no demeaning factor. However.. I do criticise the Indians for doing precisely this, Pushing the technology and envelope too far in their first true home designed front line fighter(the Marut has Kurt Tank's hand in it,the man behind the brilliant Fw-190.So he probably introduced the techniques for flight testing.. etc), they instead should have followed the approach used on the F-16.. start light and basic. then keep adding on as you get more mature on the platforms capabilities and envelope.
The JF-17 was designed by the Chinese, built by the Chinese and just like before.. handed over to us for co manufacture. They only input we gave was in the cockpit ergonomics and interface. This doesn't mean we aren't good enough to make a plane.. It just requires a lot of investment-> CASH$$$ which unlike India we are deficient in. So we just asked for a made to order jet, and got one.

My take on their matches:
BVR-1vs1.. too close to tell- the one with better ECM and luck wins
WVR 1vs1 (full missle load)
First shot goes to the LCA as its delta allows for a higher instantaneous rate. comes down to angle and altitude.
WVR 1vs1(guns only) The LCA can manage a good snapshot, but in case he misses.. then the thunder has its ***. because the delta will then bleed energy like anything and the Thunder's conventional wing design offers a good sustained turn rate.

So as far as these aircraft are concerned, its down to the pilots skill.
But seriously.. I hope no one assumes that its gonna be a boxing match. Chances are the first encounters for each side will involve completely unmatched aircraft.


And will someone please tell me where to find this guy of rupee news.. i want to throw a bucket of Ice water on him. The guy has just had too much Gutka

That was indeed a balanced analysis. We do not yet know the capabilities either of jf17 and LCA so both the fighters can be compared only after induction at least on this forum, as tall claims by both sides can make any meaningful discussion impossible. Besides, notwithstanding the planned acquisitions by pak, in the medium to long term India is likely to surge ahead in capability as it has the moolah and the intention today is to match china.
So, the balance will progressively tilt in favour of India as we go along. THis is bound to happen as India grows economically.

 

[gangwar]

I don't know how take your post .. but you have said alot yet you seem not know wat you are saying therfore, you are asking many questions wat is your given point so we can respond ?

well sorry for being overelaborative....

the point i wanna make is china has made JFs as an exporting material rather than personal use, coz they have superior models like MKKs for this.and till JFs become operational who knows they mite be up with J-XXs.but nowhere i see china downgrading to JFs as MKKs >>> JFs.

second, also a reply to the person who said JFs are pakistani indegenous and india dont have anything indegenous.well i thot this argument was futile so i responded.

also his refusal to accept indian air superiority in combat to JFs. well JF isnt even near to what india has and is pursuing in terms of birds and radars.

even china can be said in par with what india has......so just a reply, no offence.

lastly, what pakistan has is mostly frm china.....we all know indegenous is too demanding from pakistan as of now.pakistan dont have money for R&D investments compared to india and china.though china R&D >>>> indian R&D but where bring pakistan?

 

[ice_man]

well sorry for being overelaborative....

the point i wanna make is china has made JFs as an exporting material rather than personal use, coz they have superior models like MKKs for this.and till JFs become operational who knows they mite be up with J-XXs.but nowhere i see china downgrading to JFs as MKKs >>> JFs.

second, also a reply to the person who said JFs are pakistani indegenous and india dont have anything indegenous.well i thot this argument was futile so i responded.

also his refusal to accept indian air superiority in combat to JFs. well JF isnt even near to what india has and is pursuing in terms of birds and radars.

even china can be said in par with what india has......so just a reply, no offence.

lastly, what pakistan has is mostly frm china.....we all know indegenous is too demanding from pakistan as of now.pakistan dont have money for R&D investments compared to india and china.though china R&D >>>> indian R&D but where bring pakistan?

yes according to your logic india has the best "SUPER FIGHTERS" currently like the MKI yet india is going around shopping for 126 MRCA's right? & yet is trying to make LCA why? s LCA crap? no

the reason is every airforce needs Hi end fighters as well as medium tech & low tech fighters!

the Chinese might not choose the JFs because of A they have the J-10s as medium tech & the MKK as high tech fighters coupled with J-11Bs! so they don't need a 4th type of platform!

as for R&D hmmm well currently Pakistan has crusie missile technology in terms of BABUR & RA'AD that even the chinese currently lack! how? because we reverse engineered it from the U.S. tomahawks!

and if i am not wrong your ZEE NEWS reported that pakistan has made HARPOON missiles from Land to Land based missile! so is ZEE NEWS lying or are you just underestimating us & contradicting yourself?

PAC is the second biggest aeronautical complex in ASIA!

listen please before u ask questions SEARCH the forum for your answers if you don't find them ask us thanx!

 

[LCA Tejas]

yes according to your logic india has the best "SUPER FIGHTERS" currently like the MKI yet india is going around shopping for 126 MRCA's right? & yet is trying to make LCA why? s LCA crap? no

the reason is every airforce needs Hi end fighters as well as medium tech & low tech fighters!

the Chinese might not chosse the JFs because of A they have the J-10s as medium tech & the MKK as high tech fighters coupled with J-11Bs! so they don't need a 4th type of platform!

as for R&D hmmm well currently Pakistan has crusie missile technology in terms of BABUR & RA'AD that even the chinese currently lack! how? because we reverse engineered it from the U.S. tomahawks!

and if i am not wrong your ZEE NEWS reoprted that pakistan has made HARPOON missiles from Land to Land based missile!

PAC is the second biggest aeronautical complex in ASIA!

listen please before u ask questions SEARCH the forum for your answers if you don't find them ask us thanx!

Buddy calm down, LCA is being made to Replace Mig 21 bisons. But when China has J-10 and FC-1 why would they replace it with Inferior FC-1 when they can do it with much superior J-10's... Thats the Idea what he said.... And sorry to dissapoint you, HAL is Asias second largest manufacturer of earthmoving equipment's....

HAL is ranked 34th among the leading defense firms around the world... PAC is no where to be seen buddy...... And how can You say PAC is second biggest in Asia?

 

[Chanakyaa]

A good reporting must not be based on 'mine is good coz ur is bad' call urself good ... Fine.

But making factually icorrect presumptions and trumpeting them loud will ensure u stay away from ground realities..

1. Lanka need jf 17 for battling LTTE which simlpy does not exist as of now?

2. India sponsoring LTTE, in 2009/10 when the same murdered our PM n we did send peacekeepers AGAINST them?

3. Can PAK FA make india get into a league of nations making 5th gen fighters when it only funelled the money as a PARTNER?
NO.
Then how can u boast that pak has made into a similar achievement when entire product is chinese.

4. JF17is a marvellous plane. Best for PAF.
But is it a deep penetration a/c as claimed, does he even know the meaning of the term?

5. Israel failed, US failed , India failed but with no money and research base pak is the one with success... How come?
JF17 is agreat achievement, u must be proud over it but its not good to be blind with incorrect facts.

Tejas is being inducted , the vey recent declaration by Defenece minister and $2 billion fund is the proof.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Thank you all for opening this stupid Topic again

Moin Ansari, ahh well

 

[ice_man]

Buddy calm down, LCA is being made to Replace Mig 21 bisons. But when China has J-10 and FC-1 why would they replace it with Inferior FC-1 when they can do it with much superior J-10's... Thats the Idea what he said.... And sorry to dissapoint you, HAL is Asias second largest manufacturer of earthmoving equipment's....

HAL is ranked 34th among the leading defense firms around the world... PAC is no where to be seen buddy...... And how can You say PAC is second biggest in Asia?

sorry firstly PAC is the world largest assembly plant! not the second highest leading defence firm!

however, please elaborate why the LCA is replacing the Bisons while the MRCA is replacing bisons! so will the service life of LCA be just 3 years before it will be replaced by MRCA? ofcourse not!

So according to YOUR LOGIC and purely your's LCA is crap given that the MRCAs are going to replace the Bisons!

buddy to cut your rant short the chinese requirements are different from the PAFs and the LCA will work a different purpose compared to the MRCA competition! china not choosing the JF is purely due to its different defence needs altogether!

and the Israelis didn't choose the F-15s in their second procurment instead went for the F-16s does that make the F-15 Eagle a worse aircraft? ofcourse not! the reason was purely different defence requirements!

 

[mean_bird]

Buddy calm down, LCA is being made to Replace Mig 21 bisons. But when China has J-10 and FC-1 why would they replace it with Inferior FC-1 when they can do it with much superior J-10's...

May be if you look around, you will also find that China and Pakistan both have hundreds of A-5, mig-21, etc to replace too. The question is not "does china has the money" to replace "each and every" plane with a J-11 and J-10 but the question is "should they?"

PLAAF has a huge fleet that needs to be replaced and you dot necessarily have to replace every single one of them with a J10 or J-11. After all, China's future rival, the US will be moving towards a whole fleet of 5th generation planes. So is it good for china to replace the whole fleet with 4th or 4.5 gen planes? or maybe fill in "some of the them" with a cheaper option as a stop gap till china fields its own 5th generation fighter and then go for them.

According to your logic, a country should not "downgrade" as you call it if it has better fighters. Well, no country maintains a fleet of all expensive fighters, not even the U.S. F-22 is far superior but its production have been capped...why? Similar is the case of F-15s. China will (or atleast should) have a formidable fleet of J-11 and J-10 but its a huge fleet unless they cut the numbers. So it will depend on china's policy on how they see their defence and how they see the world evolving.

As far as JF-17 (or LCA for that matter), neither pakistan, nor china (nor india) considers them as frontline fighters. Pakistan is also going for F-16 blk 52 and J-10b as frontline...isn't that enough to give you a clue? However, they also need workhorses to fill up the numbers which suits PAF's doctrine given their resources. Also whether or not China will ever buy the JF-17 (FC-1) depends on availability of local engine. Its the same reason China hasn't ordered the L-15 trainer. Only the J-10 are coming with Russian engines because they have no other choice at the moment.

 

[Storm Force]

Not sure which of

50 Thunders between now and 2013
18 F16/52 between now and 2011

Or 40 J10 BY 2015

are going to game change the PAF VERSIS IAF scenario.

Not one of those is equal to overall capability of IAF SU30MKI

By 2015 the indians will be fielding 230 su30mki half with a AESA radar ibris and novatar BVR missles.