Pakistan's NCO corps

[Tang0]

Recently I've spoken to some people back from joint deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, and mostly what they have to say about the fledgling militaries of those nations is not very flattering. Problems range from administrative and logistical: such as pay not coming in on time, cheap corrosive ammo with high failure rates, and substandard spare parts, to moral and tactics: troops were unwilling to take the fight to the enemy unless pushed into it by US advisers. This has been recorded by dozens of news agencies over the years, and is news to nobody in particular. The interesting thing they told me was this, it was mostly because of a weak core of NCO's.

The money and material was there, the troops were angry enough to fight, and had enough basic training to outclass the enemy. The also had armor and air support. The issue was that NCO's would refuse to act without direct orders from officers. They wouldn't go out a haggle with the quartermaster or equivalent for good equipment. When pinned down by enemy fire, the NCO's wouldn't grab the nearest scared shitless private and do a buddy rush on the enemy position. They weren't motivated, and there was nothing in the military culture to encourage them to take risks and take charge. There was no "Shoot now, and beg for forgiveness tomorrow" attitude.

Looking around, US advisers find this is an issue all over the middle east. According to various sources, in Egypt, officers tend to be political appointees and the NCO corps is toothless and afraid for their careers, same story in Saudi Arabia.

My question is this. Are NCO's given wide powers to take action in "Questionable" situations in Pakistan? What are their rights and responsibilities? When you ask a group of Pakistani soldiers "Who is the toughest, most violent, and most experienced person in this unit?" Who do they point to? Is it the Senior NCO?

 

[Tang0]

Silence? Anyone in the forum a former member of the PA's ground combat element?

 

[PAFAce]

There are a few current and ex members of the Armed Forces on this forum, but they take their time in replying. I can, however, try to help you out in the short term with my limited knowledge of the Pakistani Armed Forces.

- Three of the 10 men who have received the country's highest military honor, the Nishan-e-Haider, (Emblem of the Lion - from the a title of Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib "the Lion of God"), are Non Commissioned Officers:

1. Jawan (Private), Sawar Muhammad Hussain Janjua, Shaheed.
2. Lance Naik (Lance Corporal/Private 1st Class), Muhammad Mahfuz, Shaheed.
3. Havaldar (Sargeant), Lalak Jan, Shaheed.

Also, Naik (Corporal) Saif Ali, Shaheed, received the Hilal-e-Kashmir (Crescent of Kashmir) which was later made equivalent to the Nishan-e-Haider for his efforts in the First Kashmir War of 1948.

If you read the story of all four of these men, the latest of whom received the honor in 1999 (Lalak Jan, Shaheed), you see that there is very much a drive amongst the NCOs to go beyond the call of duty. The Pakistan Armed Forces have a tradition of honoring heroism and sacrifice, regardless of rank, in all services, but particularly in the Army. The fact that many consider sacrifice for their country a religious obligation and privilege adds to the desire of the regular NCO to do more than needed. I am in no way incurring that the regular Pakistani soldier is more motivated than a soldier in any other armed force, but rather that any motivation displayed by foreign soldiers can be more than matched by Pakistani soldiers (in general).

- A very important thing to understand about NCOs everywhere is this, they are not the cream of the country's men. In the west, many NCOs are men who desire to make their lives useful but fail get into universities and make it as Officers. I can say this with reasonable confidence as some of my high school friends are currently in Canadian Forces (Officers and NCOs, Regular and Reserves), and they are doing well. In Pakistan, it is not much different (except that high school education is rare). I say this not as disrespect towards NCOs, but to make my next point.

The reason a relatively average man can perform spectacularly in crisis is due to supreme confidence in training and command. As far as training goes, I am quite certain that Pakistani NCOs receive better training when compared to other developing nations, but am less certain about the quality when compared with more developed nations. As for command, Pakistani Officers, in particular high ranking Officers, receive world-class training at world-class institutes. No expense is spared, so to speak, when it comes to the training of the Officers and, subsequently, the morale of the NCOs.

- If you ask an NCO war veteran what kept him going once he went to war, he will simply tell you that it was his buddies. Camaradarie, or espirit-de-corps, is very important in the performance of the NCOs as well as Officers. As far as this goes, the fact that Pakistan is relatively young, combined with the fact that most people believe sacrifice to be honorable, gives Pakistani NCOs an edge when it comes to morale and spirit. This in turn makes for good comradeship, which in turn makes for stronger fighting units and more daring individuals.

Everything I have said above comes from my personal understanding of the average NCO. Like I said before, my knowledge is limited, but I know enough NCOs and young Officers in both the Canadian and Pakistani Armies to be able to form these opinions and defend them with reasonable confidence. Also, not to boast, but I have read more than my share of war veteran accounts and military history and strategy publications to be able to justify my views.

 

[fatman17]

Recently I've spoken to some people back from joint deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, and mostly what they have to say about the fledgling militaries of those nations is not very flattering. Problems range from administrative and logistical: such as pay not coming in on time, cheap corrosive ammo with high failure rates, and substandard spare parts, to moral and tactics: troops were unwilling to take the fight to the enemy unless pushed into it by US advisers. This has been recorded by dozens of news agencies over the years, and is news to nobody in particular. The interesting thing they told me was this, it was mostly because of a weak core of NCO's.

The money and material was there, the troops were angry enough to fight, and had enough basic training to outclass the enemy. The also had armor and air support. The issue was that NCO's would refuse to act without direct orders from officers. They wouldn't go out a haggle with the quartermaster or equivalent for good equipment. When pinned down by enemy fire, the NCO's wouldn't grab the nearest scared shitless private and do a buddy rush on the enemy position. They weren't motivated, and there was nothing in the military culture to encourage them to take risks and take charge. There was no "Shoot now, and beg for forgiveness tomorrow" attitude.

Looking around, US advisers find this is an issue all over the middle east. According to various sources, in Egypt, officers tend to be political appointees and the NCO corps is toothless and afraid for their careers, same story in Saudi Arabia.

My question is this. Are NCO's given wide powers to take action in "Questionable" situations in Pakistan? What are their rights and responsibilities? When you ask a group of Pakistani soldiers "Who is the toughest, most violent, and most experienced person in this unit?" Who do they point to? Is it the Senior NCO?

JCOs
JCO's are the bedrock of the army - they liaise between the officers and the jawans! not only that they are responsible for keeping the morale of the jawans high and ensuring that the jawans are trained properly and remain disciplined. the act as sounding boards for the jawans, listening to their problems and then getting them solved.

one of Kiyani's first actions was calling a JCO's Conference to hear their issues and the "year of the soldier" program came out from the feedback given by the JCOs. the importance of the JCO's is key to the organisation and discipline of the army.

NCOs are just as important - these are jawans who have served in the army for 5 yrs or more with 18 years as a high limit (it could be changed as the army's numbers have increased)

there is no comparison between the armies of Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan at the NCO level or for that matter at any level!!!

 

[Tang0]

I'd like to mention that I was not necessarily seeking to draw a direct comparison to the fighting quality of various forces mentioned,obviously an established military is going to be of an entirely diffrent caliber, but more just to see how the rank structure worked. And that seems to be how the responders took my question.

Also, I would like to mention that a "Weak" NCO corps is not necessarily the same thing as an ineffective fighting force. With a western interpretation, the advisors "drew in" that causation themselves.

Could someone say more about the JCO ranks? In the US, it is typically give to technical specialists who have knowledge commissariat with an officer rank, but don't have a university degree or commission. I.E Helicopter crew, specialized weapons technicians, ECO back seater's etc.

Also, from a political standpoint, what types of decisions can NCOs make when "The heat is on". I know this changes from officer to officer and unit to unit, but can you make any generalizations? Has anyone here worked with other armed forces enough to draw parallels or contrasts?

 

[blain2]

I'd like to mention that I was not necessarily seeking to draw a direct comparison to the fighting quality of various forces mentioned,obviously an established military is going to be of an entirely diffrent caliber, but more just to see how the rank structure worked. And that seems to be how the responders took my question.

Also, I would like to mention that a "Weak" NCO corps is not necessarily the same thing as an ineffective fighting force. With a western interpretation, the advisors "drew in" that causation themselves.

Could someone say more about the JCO ranks? In the US, it is typically give to technical specialists who have knowledge commissariat with an officer rank, but don't have a university degree or commission. I.E Helicopter crew, specialized weapons technicians, ECO back seater's etc.

Also, from a political standpoint, what types of decisions can NCOs make when "The heat is on". I know this changes from officer to officer and unit to unit, but can you make any generalizations? Has anyone here worked with other armed forces enough to draw parallels or contrasts?

Let me add a little bit to this. I only saw this thread now so am adding to it.

The issue with the NCO/JCO cadres is a complicated one. The fact is that most of the men who make it to the ranks of senior NCOs and JCOs have had quite a few years of service. With additional service and experience comes caution. So many senior NCOs and JCOs, while very proficient in their trade (they typically are), are risk-averse. This is based on the human nature of self-preservation.

The institute of the JCO is pretty much a thing of the past. The British instilled this into the sub-continental armies in order to bridge the gap that they themselves had with the local men as officers of Indian origin were few. As the Pakistani Army came into its own post independence, the demographics of the Army also changed. Many of the officers came from rural areas, the same areas which drew the non-commissioned manpower for the Army. Because of these similarities and also an increase in the educational level of the private/jawan, the need for an intermediary in the form of a JCO became somewhat irrelevant. Today and officer of the Pakistan Army can easily blend in with his men. This was not the case for the British Indian officer, thus the need for the JCO.

I have seen the JCOs and NCOs up close here in Pakistan. While the experience, turn out, knowledge of the affairs of the unit are all very good, the age of some of these non-commissioned officers is up there with the commissioned field officers (Majs etc.) As such they are usually not very physically fit. Exceptions do exist but age catches up.

The other issue is that in Pakistan, the junior officers (Lt, 2nd Lt and Capts) provide most of the leadership to their men with the JCOs/NCOs there to assist. This limits the freedom of action to a certain extent but in some very technical arms, this is a necessity due to fact that the officers are college graduates with a much better educational grounding in the sciences, mathematics etc. than the JCOs and NCOs. They can learn the technology better and quicker than the older JCOs and NCOs.

I would just add that while I do not see the institution of the NCOs going anywhere, the JCO cadres may cease to exist in the near future due to the reasons I have stated above.

The NCO community continues to provide the essential regimental training and help foster esprit de corps for the new recruits and act as the father figure in the regiments. This role will probably continue on for as long as the regimental soldiering remains a part of the Pakistan Army.

On the issue of what kind of decisions they can make, it just depends on the situation. They would typically be in charge of leading sections and platoons if the officers are not doing this. Some recent feedback to the Army has been around giving more space for decision making to the junior leaders (aka NCOs/JCOs) and there is a more structured approach in place for building up effective non-commissioned cadres by offering them advanced leadership courses through Pakistan Army's JLA (Junior Leaders Academy in Shinkiari). In war time, a typical NCO/JCO would be expected to perform leadership roles in a capacity similar to that of a junior fully commissioned officer like a Lt, 2Lt, Capt. etc.
The fact that many of the senior JCOs retire as honorary Captains and Majors should give one an idea as to how much experience these folks have and what their units think about them.

Could someone say more about the JCO ranks? In the US, it is typically give to technical specialists who have knowledge commissariat with an officer rank, but don't have a university degree or commission. I.E Helicopter crew, specialized weapons technicians, ECO back seater's etc.

As I mentioned, on most high tech platforms, such as attack or transport helicopter sqns, all of the pilots (including any backseaters) would be commissioned officers, payload specialists etc. would be JCOs/NCOs. On weapons typically NCO/JCOs are responsible for conducting training of the men. In special forces the NCOs/JCOs are given even more leeway for initiative and freedom of action. I think in Pakistan it just depends on the arm and the level of technology available to it.

On the comparison between Pakistan and that of the Iraq and Afghan Army, I would have to agree with Fatman here. There really is no comparison. The Army has an extremely well run and time tested regimental training approach that has been in effective use with the British, Indian and even Gurkha cadres of these two Armies. With minor differences, the approach is a well baked one. With the passage of time and increase in the educational levels of the NCOs and even the jawans/privates, the freedom given to the NCOs is also bound to increase.

 

[Tang0]

Good info all around. In the West, because of financial and career incentives, NCOs often get college degrees after several years in the service, and educational differences are not so pronounced. As for low level officers providing most of the leadership, this is something of a surprise. Yes, a 2nd Lt. exercises broad powers, but often he is there to make sure that the orders of higher are carried out and make sure the unit is prepared for what might come next, worry about the future, etc. The moment-to-moment leadership is exercised by NCOs to a large degree. Again, depends on the officer and the unit. There is a maxim in the US military: If a fresh Lt. begins a sentence with "Based on my experience... " you had best do an about face and find somebody else to ask your question.

That said, there is a reason that Junior Officers have the highest causality rates of any group, and it is not all inexperience.

 

[S-2]

"In the US, it is typically give to technical specialists who have knowledge commissariat with an officer rank, but don't have a university degree or commission. I.E Helicopter crew, specialized weapons technicians, ECO back seater's etc."

Tango, what you're referring to here are our Warrant Officer ranks. This is a nebulous area of technical specialists such as mortar locating radar technicians, survey, and meteorological for the artillery. Obviously, our army aviation for years also included a large number of rotor-qualified flight warrants. That may have diminished somewhat but typically provided a career pathway into aviation for those who were neither college grads nor commissioned officers.

They really don't sit in the chain of command-yet do. My target acquisition platoon included a radar warrant who sat outside the platoon leader's chain-of-command (the section chief was an E-6 staff sergeant) but effectively ran our AN/TPQ-36 FIREFINDER section.

 

[Tang0]

Tango, what you're referring to here are our Warrant Officer ranks. This is a nebulous area of technical specialists such as mortar locating radar technicians, survey, and meteorological for the artillery. Obviously, our army aviation for years also included a large number of rotor-qualified flight warrants. That may have diminished somewhat but typically provided a career pathway into aviation for those who were neither college grads nor commissioned officers.

They really don't sit in the chain of command-yet do. My target acquisition platoon included a radar warrant who sat outside the platoon leader's chain-of-command (the section chief was an E-6 staff sergeant) but effectively ran our AN/TPQ-36 FIREFINDER section.

Yes, I was drawing a comparison between the JCO ranks and the warrant officer rank found in the commonwealth nations and the US. Thank you for elaborating.

 

[blain2]

"In the US, it is typically give to technical specialists who have knowledge commissariat with an officer rank, but don't have a university degree or commission. I.E Helicopter crew, specialized weapons technicians, ECO back seater's etc."

Tango, what you're referring to here are our Warrant Officer ranks. This is a nebulous area of technical specialists such as mortar locating radar technicians, survey, and meteorological for the artillery. Obviously, our army aviation for years also included a large number of rotor-qualified flight warrants. That may have diminished somewhat but typically provided a career pathway into aviation for those who were neither college grads nor commissioned officers.

They really don't sit in the chain of command-yet do. My target acquisition platoon included a radar warrant who sat outside the platoon leader's chain-of-command (the section chief was an E-6 staff sergeant) but effectively ran our AN/TPQ-36 FIREFINDER section.

In the Pakistani artillery, the person in charge of the Firefinder ALR would be an officer (Lt, 2nd Lt) however there would be NCOs supporting him. The issue again is the level of technical education. Most of the officers in Pakistan are either put through the University curriculum in the PMA or are taken in as graduate officers (similar to ROTC route going in for a commission). This is not the case for the NCOs and JCOs. There is an exception to the case where those NCOs and JCOs showing aptitude are pushed up to the PMA and then commissioned.

 

[S-2]

My organization was somewhat different than what you'd find in a Target Acquisition Battery. We had those within DIVARTY and T.A. Battalions in Corps Artillery. However, in this instance, I was the direct support artillery battalion S-2 (intelligence) officer for a separate infantry brigade.

As such, we needed a semi-autonomous capability. My T.A. platoon was commanded by a 1Lt and possessed a metro, survey, and both radar and sound/flash sections. He was a busy young man. So too his platoon sergeant. We had slots for two warrants in that platoon, radar and metro but only one filled.

At this point, I don't think we've fielded a better educated army. Absolute kiss of death to be commissioned without a degree and is nearly an extinct animal. Most officers have post-grad degrees by the time they're lieutenant colonels and at least one verified language fluency. A TON of NCOs with their college degrees now to include guys in the combat arms and an unusually high number within our enlisted ranks.

 

[Tang0]

My organization was somewhat different than what you'd find in a Target Acquisition Battery. We had those within DIVARTY and T.A. Battalions in Corps Artillery. However, in this instance, I was the direct support artillery battalion S-2 (intelligence) officer for a separate infantry brigade.

As such, we needed a semi-autonomous capability. My T.A. platoon was commanded by a 1Lt and possessed a metro, survey, and both radar and sound/flash sections. He was a busy young man. So too his platoon sergeant. We had slots for two warrants in that platoon, radar and metro but only one filled.

At this point, I don't think we've fielded a better educated army. Absolute kiss of death to be commissioned without a degree and is nearly an extinct animal. Most officers have post-grad degrees by the time they're lieutenant colonels and at least one verified language fluency. A TON of NCOs with their college degrees now to include guys in the combat arms and an unusually high number within our enlisted ranks.

Is it actually possible anymore to be commissioned without some type of degree in the US military?

 

[S-2]

I checked a bit, wondering the same, and was inconclusive. OCS still operates at Ft. Benning and has an extensive course schedule for this year but I didn't see what their educational pre-requisites are now.

I believe you can be commissioned but don't believe that you are promotable to Major without a four year degree at this point. I'll ask some folks I know who are definitive.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

TangO:
Are you sure you have a grasp on what NCOs, WOs and Lts do in a Commonwealth army and their standings and ops requirements?

Some of your comments seem to me to be heavily US mil centric which does NOT reflect Commonwealth armies.

 

[Xeric]

It is said that NCOs are the backbone of any Army!

We in the Pakistan Army take this thing seriously.
The kind of welfare and 'look after' that the Army do for these people is examplery!
And on the other hand the Army also expects them to deliver when they are required to.

Great emphasis is given on the training, motivation and professional grooming of this class.

There is no doubt when Pakistan Army is considered one of the best,it's because of their MEN-both Officer and the Jawan cadre!!

History is full of the valorous deeds of these men and we are proud of them!