Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.

[One_Nation]

Don't talk to your father that way.

Again mouthful and empty mind.

 

[One_Nation]

Not true. They are an ethnic state. We cannot be. And should not be. Even a multi-ethnic state.

Its true Pakistan is an ethnic state and should remain one but how come Iran is not? Are Balochis in east the same as Azeris in the north and all other ethnic groups in between?

I have known many people from Iran and as far as I have seen they very varied ethnically maybe more than Pakistan.

 

[One_Nation]

Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.

Joe Biden?

 

[BRAVO_]

Did you learn Farsi or spoke it natively?

Mashallah I am still impressed either way.

Brother it is my native language ... just like Hazara people speak Dari which is a Branch of Persian we Qazalbash speak Persian

 

[Stallion29]

Joe Biden?

Actually joe biden single handedly pimp slapped pakistan. And the pakistani people sat there and watched like good little colonized children

 

[One_Nation]

Very interesting point, though, you shouldn't single out the Pakistani state. There are many ethnic, religious and linguistic sub-identities that states like Germany, France, Turkey, China, Italy or even Sweden have physically and socially erased over time to forge a somewhat homogeneous and functioning nation out of a demographic "mess".

In fact, Pakistan is incredibly tolerant and lenient when it comes to local identities. One might say even too lenient and tolerant at times...which some people use as a faulty excuse to point out the 'artificial' character of Pakistan.

The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.

Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.

I think's Pakistan's positive points are being portrayed negatively here. Cleaning out local ethnic identities is cultural genocide. There is no other way Iran and Turkey would have achieved that with people of different ethnic backgrounds who no longer know who they originally were and where they came from and can only identify with their newfound national identity.

Its a good thing Pakistan is not a cultural genocidal state. It is never even attempted in Pakistan.

The Islamic wahabi ideology that was enforced on the country originates overseas and was applied equally on all ethnic groups. We can't say that the dominant ethnic group i.e Punjabis enforced it on others. There are probably more retarded mullahs in Punjab than anywhere else in Pakistan.

The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.
Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.

I raised the same point in the other thread that got deleted. India is a much more artificial country with its French name and borders and governance system developed by the British. Britain itself is a very artificial country with one ethnic group i.e. English dominating and smaller groups Scottish, Welsh and Irish having strong resentment against the state. USA is another example.

The issue with identity crises in Pakistan is not a result of its composition or how it was created rather its the weak willed people who lack the capabilities to envision and build modern states. They will be more stable under nations like Turks and Iranians that apply brute force to rule. They will burn down their house when living in a constitutional democracy.

Actually joe biden single handedly pimp slapped pakistan. And the pakistani people sat there and watched like good little colonized children

Joe Biden has nothing to do with it. Pakistan has always been a colonized country of USA and most Pakistanis feel no shame in that as they are used to it.

 

[Ssan]

Its true Pakistan is an ethnic state and should remain one but how come Iran is not? Are Balochis in east the same as Azeris in the north and all other ethnic groups in between?

I have known many people from Iran and as far as I have seen they very varied ethnically maybe more than Pakistan.

Iran is an ethnic nation state. Pakistan is not and should not be. You misunderstood what I said

 

[Stallion29]

I think's Pakistan's positive points are being portrayed negatively here. Cleaning out local ethnic identities is cultural genocide. There is no other way Iran and Turkey would have achieved that with people of different ethnic backgrounds who no longer know who they originally were and where they came from and can only identify with their newfound national identity.

Its a good thing Pakistan is not a cultural genocidal state. It is never even attempted in Pakistan.

The Islamic wahabi ideology that was enforced on the country originates overseas and was applied equally on all ethnic groups. We can't say that the dominant ethnic group i.e Punjabis enforced it on others. There are probably more retarded mullahs in Punjab than anywhere else in Pakistan.

The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.
Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.

I raised the same point in the other thread that got deleted. India is a much more artificial country with its French name and borders and governance system developed by the British. Britain itself is a very artificial country with one ethnic group i.e. English dominating and smaller groups Scottish, Welsh and Irish having strong resentment against the state. USA is another example.

The issue with identity crises in Pakistan is not a result of its composition or how it was created rather its the weak willed people who lack the capabilities to envision and build modern states. They will be more stable under nations like Turks and Iranians that apply brute force to rule. They will burn down their house when living in a constitutional democracy.


Joe Biden has nothing to do with it. Pakistan has always been a colonized country of USA and most Pakistanis feel no shame in that as they are used to it.

Pakistanis are used to being colonized and like it? Haha wtf. Grow some balls and have some self respect. This is what im talking about people. Like little children

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.

What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.

Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??

Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.

But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.

Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.

Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.

Pakistan's misery is self inflicted and you are part of it as you don't acknowledge Pakistan's link to ancient India. Similarly, Bharatis deny India's medieval history.

I think it is Scythian ideology at play. Real Indians or Hindustanis do not deny either history.

The irony is your name is Indus Pakistan. Hindustan means Land of the Indus. Its identity and culture were carried by people to other parts of the subcontinent which became India.

So, India is not a geography like the Equator. It is not possible to make an army of the state of Equator.

 

[Faqirze]

Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.

No your mistaken, the reason people don't respect you is because you don't respect yourself, has nothing to do with you being a Pakistani. The average person doesn't give a rats *** if you are Indian, Chinese, Pakistani or what not, its about who you are as a person. You don't gain respect or become any more or less likeable from others based off your nationality.

 

[SQ8]

Identity is language or heavy culture - the Arabs have Arabic, the Turks have Turkce, Indonesia has it own - India owned up to its land.

Nations that did not unit on either language or culture are going to be disjointed.

Pakistanis have a majority who are either/and/all ethnofascist racist religious bigots who will find ways to differentiate rather than unite regardless of how much they pretend otherwise. Starting with sect, ethnicity, castes, skin color and then finally when all else fails its monetary class.

Regardless of the affinity from Pakistanis which all comes from their slave mentality of admiring caucasian skin tones a.k.a Laad Sahib .. Turkish people are a nation unified under the common language and culture. Islam is a leaf within their identity but is not the keystone for it, they learn and accept Islam as a way of life for the individual to choose; not “I better be muslim exactly like my parents or “more” or I get declared a kafir and ostracized for it or worse”

In many ways, Pakistan getting independence was a travesty because the sole leader/statesman/moral guide was lost less than a year in. The result is the headless, stringy feather rooster that pecks around randomly but at the end isn’t a rooster as much as motor functions running on muscle memory.
But headless chickens have survived for 18 months so put that into historical perspective.

There are seeds of change, but not until all boomers are in the grave. Gen Z and onwards maybe.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Identity is language or heavy culture - the Arabs have Arabic, the Turks have Turkce, Indonesia has it own - India owned up to its land.

Nations that did not unit on either language or culture are going to be disjointed.

Pakistanis have a majority who are either/and/all ethnofascist racist religious bigots who will find ways to differentiate rather than unite regardless of how much they pretend otherwise. Starting with sect, ethnicity, castes, skin color and then finally when all else fails its monetary class.

Regardless of the affinity from Pakistanis which all comes from their slave mentality of admiring caucasian skin tones a.k.a Laad Sahib .. Turkish people are a nation unified under the common language and culture. Islam is a leaf within their identity but is not the keystone for it, they learn and accept Islam as a way of life for the individual to choose; not “I better be muslim exactly like my parents or “more” or I get declared a kafir and ostracized for it or worse”

In many ways, Pakistan getting independence was a travesty because the sole leader/statesman/moral guide was lost less than a year in. The result is the headless, stringy feather rooster that pecks around randomly but at the end isn’t a rooster as much as motor functions running on muscle memory.
But headless chickens have survived for 18 months so put that into historical perspective.

There are seeds of change, but not until all boomers are in the grave. Gen Z and onwards maybe.

No, afaik they also use a lingua franca like Urdu

 

[SQ8]

No, afaik they also use a lingua franca like Urdu

Im glad you brought that up - because no one else was pointing to it.

Urdu is what is really keeping it all together. The headless chicken’s skeleton isn’t all Islam - its Urdu. Yet the hate by ethofascists against it, it’s bastardized versions running amok with roman letters and English in it are leaving that damaged too.

 

[ziaulislam]

After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I

First you need to see minority province beleive that nobody cares about that to go away

18th amendment was done to address that issue and it has to large extent but mistrust still exists

 

[bababho]

The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic whereas Pakistanis by and large are not. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this.

There is no pakistani identity if you keep ummah aside,

Rajputs on both sides
Gujjars on both sides
Jatt / Jutt on Both Sides
Sindhis on Both Sides
Gujratis on Both Sides
Chauhans on Both Sides
Choudhary on Both Sides
Suri / Bajwa / Malik / Shah / Gill / Cheema on Both Sides
Dhar became Dar, Bhat became Butt

anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)