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Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

Well it was pretty obvious that Pakistan would never buy Mirage2000; unless they got a deal they couldnt refuse it was obvious that Pakistan would never go for this system. They are more interested with J10 and improving JF17's, they want to invest their resources on indigenous projects rather than wasting money on foriegn platforms.
 
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I am sure friends that most of you are worried that PAF might not be capable of standing against IAF, I asure you that there are a lot of things which our civilians don't know or in simple words they don't want you to know.
In the Cold war both countries used to show off there weapons to scare or tell the other side ( SEE WE HAVE THEM SO DON"T SCREW WITH US ). Now the tactic, strategy the whole Art of war has chanced 2 words Deceptions and denial are now the weapons which are very effective we don't want to show what we have and what it is capable off. Yes we do have a big problem CASH but still we somehow :lol:manage to get it and don't ask how. So stop worrying we are strong.

ZindaBad sir jee, a credible info from a credible-PAF Airforce- man, keep us motivated all the way alone. ALLAH is with us.
:bounce::chilli::victory:
 
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ALLAH is (insha-allah) definitely with us but we need to look at ourselves as well and try to improve

(Khuda ney aaj tak us Qom Ki halat naheen badlee -- nah ho khial jis ko aap apni halat key badalney ka) - sorry for this pep talk.

It may sound a bit repetitive (given the discussion in this thread so far), I would still suggest that PAF should go for Mirages 2000-5 and 2000-9 (if they are available to us very quickly).

The reason behind this is that, I see a war being imposed upon Pakistan in the next 12 to 18 months (MARK MY WORDS - THIS IS A CERTAINTY). The recent Mumbai attacks were mainly to PRIME the situation in this regard. Imagine if there is another "attack in the next 6 to 12 months (and BJP comes into power) the war is certain.

Given this scenario, PAF needs hightech planes. We cannot wait for FC-20 or JXX to arrive in 2 to 10 years time respectively. The next 2 years crucial.

As far as money is concerned, Pakistan should adopt a policy of obtaining soft loans from our Arab and other rich friend (say $500million each country). Invest this money to buy and equip the PAF (for its own missions, to support the army and support the Pakistan Navy).

Remember the best option we have is to neutralize the Indian airforce on ground and launch a SIMULTANEOUS attack from our airforce (not to wait for them to attack and then reply).

I would be very interested in thoughts on this.
 
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The Mirage 2000 lines are closed...so where will u get those aircrafts from:what:?
 
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The Mirage 2000 lines are closed...so where will u get those aircrafts from:what:?

Nobody is getting any aircrafts, it was just a rumour. If Pakistan does gets M2K's, they will buy them off UAE whom are replacing them with Rafael.
 
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The Mirage 2000 lines are closed...so where will u get those aircrafts from:what:?

Why? Are you so worried?

To everyone else, we don't need any other fighter. Pakistan has the perfect answer in FC-20. We already know how capable the current J-10 is. FC-20 is meant to be a serious upgrade which means even better performance wise than current J-10. FC-20 will be a genuine 4.5th gen cost-effective force multiplier. It has a good range, big airframe with plenty of hard points and a nose that can accommodate a big powerful AESA radar. Also, PAF will most definitely follow the same path with the FC-20 by having a mix of Chinese/Western radars, weapons, avionics, sensors etc. It exceeds PAFs needs and requirements without any strings attached. To be short, it's the front-line fighter that Pakistan has been longing for a long time. Not to mention the JF-17 which will also undergo some serious upgrades in the coming years.

PS. Just have patience and you'll see the results.
 
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ALLAH is (insha-allah) definitely with us but we need to look at ourselves as well and try to improve

(Khuda ney aaj tak us Qom Ki halat naheen badlee -- nah ho khial jis ko aap apni halat key badalney ka) - sorry for this pep talk.

It may sound a bit repetitive (given the discussion in this thread so far), I would still suggest that PAF should go for Mirages 2000-5 and 2000-9 (if they are available to us very quickly).

The reason behind this is that, I see a war being imposed upon Pakistan in the next 12 to 18 months (MARK MY WORDS - THIS IS A CERTAINTY). The recent Mumbai attacks were mainly to PRIME the situation in this regard. Imagine if there is another "attack in the next 6 to 12 months (and BJP comes into power) the war is certain.

Given this scenario, PAF needs hightech planes. We cannot wait for FC-20 or JXX to arrive in 2 to 10 years time respectively. The next 2 years crucial.

As far as money is concerned, Pakistan should adopt a policy of obtaining soft loans from our Arab and other rich friend (say $500million each country). Invest this money to buy and equip the PAF (for its own missions, to support the army and support the Pakistan Navy).

Remember the best option we have is to neutralize the Indian airforce on ground and launch a SIMULTANEOUS attack from our airforce (not to wait for them to attack and then reply).

I would be very interested in thoughts on this.

Iwould agree with you on the acquisition of Mirage 2k5-9,although I still say there might be a lot of sabre rattling but no war in the region unless it involves a super power.
If you evaluate the news and put things into perspective with regards to induction time, you will realize that the timing was all wrong in the first place.UAe to the best of my knowledge has shown intentions to buy Rafale but so far has not signed a contract to do so. Even if it was to sign a contract it would take 3 yrs to induct a new platform. ..given that the PAF is holding meetings with PLAF sometime in the near future about FC20 and next batch JF17s(courtesy of the great Pshamim)we should have our aircrafts in4 yrs time if contracts were signed towards the end of the year.We would then have the headache of not only inducting F16s, JF17, FC20s, but also Mirage 2K5-9.
Secondly France will not sell us old Mirages as it would want to sell us the rafale instead. The only proviso is if we buy M53 -P2/3 engines with TOT and avionics for Thunder and the 2K5s come as a precondition to that. Even then we would have to pay a heavy load of money which we dont have. Secondly, I would think(I am no expert here) that even though there are similarities between Mirage3 and 5 and M2k5-9, the setup would not be similar and there would be a need to reestablish facilities for the plane from new and that would be an additional expense. Even if we had the resources, I doubt that we have the trained manpower to handle 2 platforms building and maintianing.
Then you have reliable sources like Sir Muradk and Xman all saying that the news is a rumur.
In my view we should concentrate on Thunder and FC20 and F16s and complete our integration of these platforms as there are challanges in that as well. We should develop our UAv and Ucav facility and work with friendly countries for our 5th generation aircraft.
WaSalam
Araz
 
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Dear Maximus and Araz, I fully respect your opinions, however, I have a feeling that some of the points in my message have been overlooked. I would, therefore, explain some things in a different way (I hope you don’t mind).

Dear Maximus, FC-20 may be a frontline fighter (fully agreed) but when are we going to get it ? According to most of the discussion, in different forums, not before towards the end of 2010. If you notice I have suggested a war between India and Pakistan in less than 2 years (max.), i.e., before we can get our hands on FC-20.

Also, the maximum production capability of producing JF-17 is 25 planes per year. Therefore, by the end of 2010 we will not have more than 50 aircrafts of this type. Furthermore, according to most of the discussions, the first 50 are going to be mainly for building the numbers rather than an actual 4+ generation fighter. Yes, the next 100s and then the 100 after that will be something to rely on.

I have the patience but the people who are planning this war have done a lot of calculations as well.

Dear Araz, thank you for agreeing with with regard to buying the M2K – 5 and 9. Believe me it is not sabre rattling, a real war is coming and very soon. The notion that no war until a super power is interested has been proved wrong in the last 10 years. In fact, the super power (US) has itself been coned into the WAR (mainly due to the stupid president they had). If we really need to have a clear picture of what is about to happen then we need to review the history of last 20 years or so. Please read:

1. Lockerbee plane crash. To date no one knows who did it but a Lybian national was made the escape goat and even the relatives of the people who died still say that they don’t believe he did it. The end result: Libya becomes a Pariah state.
2. First Gulf war. The last person who met Saddam Hussein was American ambassador and said that Kuwait – Iraq conflict is an internal matter for the arabs and nothing to do with us. What happened after that is history but Iraq becomes a Pariah state for the next 10 years.
3. Sept 2001. Twin towers come down: attack on Afghanistan.
4. 2003 - Attack on Iraq.
5. Hariri killed in Lebanon – Syria becomes a Pariah state.
6. This is followed by Israeli attack on Lebanon

JUST THINK FOR ONE SECOND THAT WHICH COUNTRY IN THE FIRST AND SECOND GULF WAR AND THEN WAR IN AFGHANISTAN HAS NOT SPEND A DIME; NOT LOST A SINGLE SOLDIER, A TANK, A HELICOPTER OR A PLANE BUT HAS GAINED EVERYTHING – I THINK THE ANSWER IS VERY CLEAR.

Therefore, it is easy to find out who is really running the wars (Super power or ?????).

You also mention that “we should have our aircrafts in 4 years”. My friend, 4 years is very long. Do you think that “they” don’t know this ???

To induct Mirage 2000-5 & 9 may be a headache but this headache is worth having.

France may not be willing to sell us Mirages 2000-5 & 9 because they want to sell us Rafale. First of all, with all due respect, this is a hypothetical statement. France is actually waiting for Indian MRCA contract finalization and trying to woo them whatever way they can (please note the recent nuclear deal between them). If they cannot get the cotract (i.e. India decides to buy F-16 block 70 or Mig-35) only then Rafale is an opportunity for us. Let us assume, even if Rafale is an opportunity for PAF, even then we can negotiate with France to give us Mirages because they are readily available. We can also induct Mirages from Qatar and if possible UAE. About 70+ M2K-5 & 9 can give the PAF a punch in quick time that PAF really needs. They will be great Naval support as well and we already have the infra-structure PAC to look after them.

I am not saying that we should not concentrate on JF-17 and FC-20. My point is that these two aircrafts are 2011 and beyond. We are looking down the barrel in the next 24 months or so.
 
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^^ That point is the one Araz sahib addressed. The UAE could only start delivering used M-2000's at the earliest in about three years, provided their Raphael acquisitions o along perfectly, and even then only as the Raphaels are delivered - so that puts it in the ballpark of the FC-20 delivery time anyway. Why spend the money on an inferior (though still excellent) platform when that money can be directed towards existing projects and acquisitions/upgrades?
 
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Dear Sir (Agnostic Muslim), I agree with Araz sahab that the timing of the delivery from UAE is the real porblem (it may not be if France agrees to sell its M2k - 5 and 9 !!! and also Qatari ones may be quick).

I hope you agree with my rest of the analysis though !!! and if you do then please what is the answer ??

I forgot to mention one thing in my post: the next war will not be India VS Pakistan, it will be actually Pakistan VS India + US + Israel (WIth US and Israel providing the support, reconisense, details of troops deployment, international pressure, media uproar against pakistan etc.)
 
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I forgot to mention one thing in my post: the next war will not be India VS Pakistan, it will be actually Pakistan VS India + US + Israel (WIth US and Israel providing the support, reconisense, details of troops deployment, international pressure, media uproar against pakistan etc.)

Not an easy thing to wage war. Specially against a nuclear armed nation.

JUST THINK FOR ONE SECOND THAT WHICH COUNTRY IN THE FIRST AND SECOND GULF WAR AND THEN WAR IN AFGHANISTAN HAS NOT SPEND A DIME; NOT LOST A SINGLE SOLDIER, A TANK, A HELICOPTER OR A PLANE BUT HAS GAINED EVERYTHING – I THINK THE ANSWER IS VERY CLEAR.
Which country might this be?
 
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Dear Sir (Agnostic Muslim), I agree with Araz sahab that the timing of the delivery from UAE is the real porblem (it may not be if France agrees to sell its M2k - 5 and 9 !!! and also Qatari ones may be quick).

I hope you agree with my rest of the analysis though !!! and if you do then please what is the answer ??

I forgot to mention one thing in my post: the next war will not be India VS Pakistan, it will be actually Pakistan VS India + US + Israel (WIth US and Israel providing the support, reconisense, details of troops deployment, international pressure, media uproar against pakistan etc.)


Interview: Chief of the PAF talks about military cooperation with China
Posted on 18 December 2008 by admin

Islamabad, Dec.05 (China Military News cited from Jane’s Defense Weekly by Farhan Bokhari, Interviewee: Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force ) — Faced with mounting economic demands and the call for increasing involvement in continuing operations on Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan, the Pakistan Air Force (PAK) is faced with both challenges and opportunities.

China-Defense-Mashup.COM

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force

Built primarily as a territorial force with the main objective of countering the military threat from India, the PAF is adjusting to the demand of supporting the country’s ground forces operating in the border region.
For the PAF’s chief of air staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, the objective of making his force “lean, efficient and hard hitting” is central in two interconnected ways.




ACM Ahmed has to demonstrate the PAF’s ability as a potent long-term force for Pakistan and its surrounding region as well as its ability to take charge of the skies over the border region and undertake operations that will encourage the US to leave the task to Pakistani forces.

This challenge has become increasingly intense as the US increases the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) to attack sites in Pakistan’s territory suspected of hosting militants from Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Pakistan has repeatedly protested against such attacks, but without success in persuading the US to abandon this strategy.

In an interview with Jane’s at the PAF’s air headquarters in Islamabad, ACM Ahmed outlined the immediate-, medium- and long-term plans to make his force more central to Pakistan’s defence.

“The warfare itself has changed shape from a conventional, land-based strategy to a new air-based strategy,” he said.



Revealing details of discussions with China for the purchase of 36 J-10 fighter aircraft - which will be known as the FC-20 in Pakistani service - from China, ACM Ahmed said PAF officials had examined the aircraft in detail and the PAF was seeking improvements in its radar and avionics system.

He also revealed that the cost of the 36 J-10 aircraft, along with the supporting systems, would fall in the region of USD1.5 billion.

ACM Ahmed said given the economic crunch faced by Pakistan, the PAF was making efforts to establish credit financing from China for the purchase of the J-10 so that Pakistan could repay the loan over time, without adversely affecting its financial position as the country seeks international assistance to support its economy.



Other developments in a broadening defence hardware relationship with China include the finalisation of a contract by the PAF in September for the purchase of four airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. Without discussing the exact specifications of the aircraft or the radars accompanying them, ACM Ahmed said the Chinese would supply a newly built propeller-driven aircraft with a rotor dome.



While the Chinese technology is older than the radar systems employed by some of the world’s newer AEW&C aircraft, ACM Ahmed said the cost of the four aircraft and the radars would be about a third of the USD1.2 billion AEW&C aircraft bought by India, placing Pakistan “at an advantage”.

However, the current vital issue for the PAF remains that of completing the planned acquisition of JF-17 fighter aircraft from China, which are co-produced by the two countries.

In the past, ACM Ahmed has said that up to 250 JF-17 aircraft would be acquired by the PAF, with the acquisition planned to be completed in 2013. Western defence experts estimate the JF-17 project to cost about USD5 billion.:tup:

While both China and Pakistan have offered the JF-17 for export, ACM Ahmed said he is interested in taking the JF-17 from trials and tests to actual induction in the PAF, “making the aircraft a potent weapon system”.

So far, the PAF has inducted eight of the JF-17s.

“We are hoping somewhere in 2009 we should be able to induct them into the PAF with some limited operational capability and expand: from short-range missiles to BVR [beyond visual range]; from normal clean iron bombs, conventional bombs, to smarter bombs; to carrying external pods of various types,” said ACM Ahmed.

While the relationship with China has become central to the PAF’s interests, ACM Ahmed is keen to carry forward the arrangement with the US for the supply of new F-16 aircraft along with midlife upgrades for older aircraft, including those already in Pakistan’s inventory.

In recent months, some critics have called for a review of the F-16 programme on the grounds that other capabilities, such as advanced attack helicopters used by the army’s aviation corps, would be far more central to operations in the border region.

“The major part of this war in Afghanistan is being done by air power, elements of air power. Nobody should really be questioning the role of air power in this unconventional war,” said ACM Ahmed, adding that a detailed account of the vital role played by the PAF in the anti-terror operations provided to those critics now convinces him that “we are over the hump on this particular issue”.
 
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Dear Sir (Batmannow), please don't get upset with me.

The link regarding the Mirages is the Title of this thread and the discussion that has taken place so far in this thread.

I am merely making my arguement in this thread that if there is any possibility of getting these (DAM) Mirages then we should seriuosly pursue it as it has several potential advantages for us. However, if it is a completely dumb arguement then why was this thread opened at all ????
 
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