Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[spurdozer]

PC. I also am with you sir. I think Obama admin. would not appreciate the sale of F-16s to Pakistan. He always said we would increase NON-MILITARY aid to Pakistan.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

how can i attach picture

please use Flickr.com to upload your pics.

 

[SABRE]

PC. I also am with you sir. I think Obama admin. would not appreciate the sale of F-16s to Pakistan. He always said we would increase NON-MILITARY aid to Pakistan.

On the contrary Obama administration is appears to be more willing to sell weapons (& F-16s) to Pakistan then Bush admin in its last days. If I am not mistaken last time the concerns were raised on F-16s to Pakistan in Congress they were dealt down by a democrat (& not a republican) in favor of Pakistan. Joe Biden is the man running Pakistan policy and he seems to be very much in favor of the deal.

They did say increasing non-military aid to Pakistan but never said decreasing the military aid. However, top democrats have hinted towards even increasing military aid. Top reason is that they see conventionally balanced Pakistan will reduce the risk of nuclear threat in the region. They have been living under the South Asian nuclear fear since 1980s (BrassTacks).

 

[blain2]

Folks,

Lets not take this news all out of context.

No, PAF F-16s are not being sanctioned.

No, the interest in French aircraft does not mean that JF-17 and FC-20 are not happening.

My own take is simply one of getting a capability quickly enough. Mirage 2000 is a very nice platform. If we can get them at a decent price with a decent # of hours left on the airframe/engine, then we can beef up our BVR fleet very quickly before all of the upgrades that are ongoing bear fruit. The JF-17 is still undergoing weapons integration and evaluation. MLUs are nowhere close to being done fleetwide. You all know the story with blk-52 and FC-20 timelines.

With all these things in mind, maybe the French have made an offer similar to the earlier dealings with them which were affordable.

 

[Arsalan]

pakistan must be trying for mirage 2000 since in 2003 pakistan tried hard to buy mirage2000-05 from qatar. Qatar bought the aircraft in 1998 but decided to sell them off as the country did not have any use or maintenance facilities.

what happened to that deal then, i mean never heared anything about them again why didnt PAF got them?? any news on it??

 

[blain2]

Because both India and Pakistan wanted them and it was developing into a diplomatic row for the Qataris, they decided not to sell to either.

 

[IceCold]

I don't get it. There was a time when we had the option to go for mirages and yet we chose not too for any reason not important at this time and now when the assembly line is closed, we are looking to get our hands on few.
Something isn't quite right here. Before we were satisfied with our induction process which includes the J-10, JF-17 and of course the new breed of F-16s. Now all of a sudden we decided to negotiate with the french over the mirages or as some suggested airframes, the question still remains why has such a need risen, Is JF-17 not meeting dead line, F-16s got sanctioned or J-10 did not meet the requirement set by the PAF. But whatever may be the case, to me its bad news.

 

[blain2]

I don't get it. There was a time when we had the option to go for mirages and yet we chose not too for any reason not important at this time and now when the assembly line is closed, we are looking to get our hands on few.
Something isn't quite right here. Before we were satisfied with our induction process which includes the J-10, JF-17 and of course the new breed of F-16s. Now all of a sudden we decided to negotiate with the french over the mirages or as some suggested airframes, the question still remains why has such a need risen, Is JF-17 not meeting dead line, F-16s got sanctioned or J-10 did not meet the requirement set by the PAF. But whatever may be the case, to me its bad news.

All of the programs are in the works but will take time before fruition. In light of the recent tensions with India, there may have been a need felt to bolster BVR capable platforms quickly. If you look around, Mirage 2000 is the only aircraft available with this capability.

I am stating all of the above without having any facts as I am not even sure if this report of Mirages is true. So keep that in mind when posting. We are just discussing a possibility at this time.

 

[Arsalan]

ok sory for my ignorance but here is an analysis i had made, it may seem a bit foolish but still it is based on facts:

i compared the General Specs of JF17 and the Rafale (Rafale are superior to Mirage i guess)

not here are a few facts

Specs-------------------- Rafale-------------------Jf 17
Speed-----------------------Mach 1.8----------------Mach 1.8
Combat Radius---------------1,852+ km---------------1,352 km
Service Ceiling---------------16,800 m-----------------16,700 m
Thrust/Weight----------------1.13---------------------0.95
Dry thrust--------------------50.04 kN (11,250 lbf)-----49.4 kN
Thrust with afterburner--------75.62 kN----------------81.4 kN

now there is no major difference uptil now, the greater Thrust to weight ratio is due to twin engines of rafale, but the speed is same so no big difference in speed. the other part wwhich the T/W will affect is rate of climb and manuverability but both the are not VERY IMPORTANT or atleast are not the MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS.

to add on the the JF 17 is slightly smaller in size, so less detectable, also have DSI intakes so this add to its Stealth feature.

as far as avionics are concerned, the french systems are contenders for the JF17 avionic project so can get equivallently good avionics.

further more the JF17z first batch is being produced. later on we may see an increas in its T/W ratio by increasing the use of avionics. and last but not the least, JF17 is a home made plane and is very very cheaper as compared to Rafale with JF17 costing about 15 million$ and the rafale about 50$ per peice

sp now is anyone agree with this post can he tell me the need of mirages when our own JF17 is comparable to the Rafale superior to mirages!!

 

[hj786]

ok sory for my ignorance but here is an analysis i had made, it may seem a bit foolish but still it is based on facts:

i compared the General Specs of JF17 and the Rafale (Rafale are superior to Mirage i guess)

not here are a few facts

Specs-------------------- Rafale-------------------Jf 17
Speed-----------------------Mach 1.8----------------Mach 1.8
Combat Radius---------------1,852+ km---------------1,352 km
Service Ceiling---------------16,800 m-----------------16,700 m
Thrust/Weight----------------1.13---------------------0.95
Dry thrust--------------------50.04 kN (11,250 lbf)-----49.4 kN
Thrust with afterburner--------75.62 kN----------------81.4 kN

Your data is very understated. Rafale is almost certainly faster than Mach 1.8 and the ceiling is higher than 16.8 km, guaranteed. T/W is understated too I think. Put a + sign after all of these numbers like it is on Wikipedia! All these Rafale specs are most likely with full fuel and some armament on board.

 

[mean_bird]

I don't get it. There was a time when we had the option to go for mirages and yet we chose not too for any reason not important at this time and now when the assembly line is closed, we are looking to get our hands on few.
Something isn't quite right here. Before we were satisfied with our induction process which includes the J-10, JF-17 and of course the new breed of F-16s. Now all of a sudden we decided to negotiate with the french over the mirages or as some suggested airframes, the question still remains why has such a need risen, Is JF-17 not meeting dead line, F-16s got sanctioned or J-10 did not meet the requirement set by the PAF. But whatever may be the case, to me its bad news.

The issue was the price. The deal was worth $3 billion and with soft loans that pakistan was asking for, the deal crossed over $4 billion.

Add to that politics because it was the govt. of BB and Zardari was popularized to have his 10% share in this huge deal.

 

[Kansu]

Greetings Brothers;
i interrupt your wonderful conversationbut i must ask;wouldnt be difficult to have so many systems together in the inventory of PAF?(f 16,mirage 2000 and JF17)
i guess it is difficult to afford it financially.isnt it?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Greetings Brothers;
i interrupt your wonderful conversationbut i must ask;wouldnt be difficult to have so many systems together in the inventory of PAF?(f 16,mirage 2000 and JF17)
i guess it is difficult to afford it financially.isnt it?

Its just speculation my friend, i seriousally doubt it if PAF would ever go for Mirage2000 because it simply does not makes any sense. PAF would only go for M2K if the French made them an offer they simply couldnt refuse, or else it simply does not looks possible. PAF would have three front line platforms (F16, JF17 and FC20). I am sure the extra resources PAF would have they are more likely to spend it on JXX or improving JF17/FC20.

 

[Tempest II]

Your data is very understated. Rafale is almost certainly faster than Mach 1.8 and the ceiling is higher than 16.8 km, guaranteed. T/W is understated too I think. Put a + sign after all of these numbers like it is on Wikipedia! All these Rafale specs are most likely with full fuel and some armament on board.

I think some important data was left out in the comparison. This is from the Dassault website:

See the numbers I have highlighted in yellow. Rafale carries nearly 3 times as much tonnage on twice as many pylons as the JF-17.

The Rafale has the Thales RBE2 radar, capable of detecting a 5 sqm target at 155km. (source = http://www.clashofarms.com/files/Smarter%20Radars for Hpn.pdf ). The JF-17's KLJ-7 will do 85km for the same RCS. The two planes are of different classes.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Could it be that UAE might be selling or even donating their Mirage2000 to Pakistan? We know that UAE's President was in Cholistan with Zardari hunting, maybe they both finalized some new deals(including transfer of Mirage2000).