Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[blain2]

No worries Qsaark. We should all realize that there are greater powers than the CAS, PAF and these powers have competing priorities and in the 90s, due to a lack of strategic vision (by the way, this lack of long term vision in the Pakistani political class is endemic), PAF's concerns took a back seat.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

1. Actually, Delta wing is a set back in air to air mode, its the canards thats saving the M2K integrity.

2. I dont know what u mean by top cover, cuz the term is only used for the free fighter whoz acting as a hawk while watching the air battle under him

Sir,
I dont think the M2K has canards. And top cover is the term usually used to call the fighters which are escorts and they fly at higher altitude to the strike package.

 

[blain2]

Sir,
I dont think the M2K has canards.

It does. They are small canards on the sides of intakes.

File:Mirage 2000c 2.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have been corrected on one issue. The M2K has "strakes" and not canards. The difference is the small size and the static nature of the strakes vs. the variable geometry canards. Although the purpose is similar to some extent as the strakes help in speed reduction and better maneuverability.

 

[araz]

its amazing the time and effort being put on this thread - if the same passion is exhibited by the board members on more pressing threats to our country, i am sure we can all benefit from our collective wisdom!

Wise words indeed. I would blame Mastan Khan entirely:. On a serious note I think it is time we moved on to better things. This thread has outlived its utility.Whetehr PAF buys M2Ks in future is yet to be seen. I somehow think the water has gone over our heads, but i could be wrong. It is time we closed this thread and move on.
What do you guys say.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[ejaz007]

Yes, I think we should wait till some thing concrete happens. Then this thread shall become interesting especially if UAE announces its intention to sell the mirage 2000.

 

[qsaark]

It is a pure scholarly debate, as long as posters are getting replies, the interest is there. I personally think there is still some juice left, so lets keep it rolling.

 

[mhussain]

well, perhaps not that scholarly, very much argumentative rather than evidence based.

 

[pshamim]

ACM Rao Qamar has flown the UAE Mirage-2000 according to a former PAF pilot who flew them as well. He should know if they will help us. And if they do ACM will certainly go for them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I personally believe that this discussion still has not even reached its peak yet. A lots of posters haven't even started to realize the true potential of this bird. First their is negation---then neutrality---then acceptance---and then the realization of its need. We have not even crossed the first hurdle yet---talk about closing the thread---one of the most active thread on the board---funny funny funny.

In order for people to understand it---one has to look at the producer of this aircraft. What are the needs, demands, abilities, capabilities of the french air force are. The french have just not simply manufactured an aircraft system that may fit one or two roles only---to understand this bird---you have to look through the eyes of the french and operate this plane with the sight and the mind of the french---and who better to understand the designs of the french other than PAf after the french air force.

The french had invested their time and money and resources to create the best possible design so that it can take care of every one of its different needs---either it is for strike mission--EW---air superiority fighter---fighter interceptor---you name it and this plane competes with any other frame manufactured by any other top notch player aka Gen Dynamics / lockheed martin mano a mano.

The french are no fools when it comes to designing war birds----their mirage 3/5/F1 series were and are a master stroke of genius and ingenuity---the m2k took that ability to a new pleateau.

PAF desperately needs a fully developed air superiority fighter / strike air craft which comes with no strings attached alongwith the F 16's to fulfill its needs of controlling its air space till other systems that are in their infancy may develop and mature into capable fighting and strike machines.

 

[MastanKhan]

It is very difficult to estimate price for second hand goods, specially second hand defence goods and depends on multiple factors. Because they are not in sale everyday and hard to get any reference price. For example PN liked very much those British Type 23 class ships as they are very capable but was out bid by Chile. I am sure PN offered the price which it thought was fare but Chile offered more. Now even after 8-9 years PN could not success in acquiring any second hand ships which it needs badly to replace old Type 21 Tariq class ships, though looked from Greece to Netherlands and last ditch effort still looking for OHP from USN. This has created a huge capability gap for PN. There is no price for defence of a country and for defence goods price does not matter if its bearable but defence forces should have right capability in right time. At least Pak government should negotiate with UAE and Qatar government the "right of refusal" for those Mirages so that if any other countries offer any price, Pak should be asked first to equal or offer more for it....The minimum I hope that those Mirages are not sold to IAF at any costs....

Hi Bogged Down,


Truly this is the most important post regarding the procurement of pre-owned equipment. People should read, learn and understand how difficult it is to buy even quality second hand equipment---just like you---there are others looking at the same item---now who would get the item---one who steps upto the plate---pakistan should have inserted the right of refusal or upping the bid clasue in its bid---or bottom line---should have flatly asked for the rock bottom price for the ships that the britsh would sell them for without entertaining any other proposals. That was not the time for the itsy bitsy games---enough research should have done ahead of time to find out what other navies were after the product.

It is the same scenario here this time.

 

[Zob]

firstly i love the enthusiasm this thread has got from most posters and this thread has given Mastan Khan a new will to sign in and post and post and post more....i personally love the role u playing sir...Ok coming to the topic i think one of the posters said that M2K is not a Air supeirorty fighter and is more of a ground attack fighter... dear sir please stop thinking from the Kargil prespective....M2k might not have seen much action but then again the Greeks constantly repeatedly have engaged the Turkish over the AEGEAN sea...tell me how do u classify a fighter being a GOOD air superiroty fighter.... the Israelis bought the PRIDE of the US airforce called the F-15....and it is supposed to be the best air superiroty fighter....well what happened...next time round the mighty Israelis said no thank u we think the F-16s r a better platform any day....now the question is what made them prefer the F-16 to the F-15....because almost certainly Israel needs air superiroty given the vast number of its "enemies"....now the question is what makes a person say that such and such an aircrat is gonig to hold onto its own in the sky...look at PAF and its crazy obsession with F-16s its like either we get F-16s or nothing...i mean we could have just got the planes we paid for in the 90s cut our losses and run towards the Sweds for the grippen or...well britian is MINI ME of the US...that leaves u with French.... so now u need a developed platform that can take on ur enemies.

Like Mastan sir said that u have a village landlocked and u gotta spend as a deterrent to either buy the AK,G3s or the M-16....now the question is....the seller of the AK can all of a sudden want to get cozy with ur enemy....and stop supplying u...as for the M-16 the guy might ask u for more than what the thing deserves but is less prone to him choosing who he wants 2 get coozy with...and then there is a new village suppling the new guns who has just started developing his technology of making arms(CHINA) now out of these 3 options i personally feel the least poison pill is the country who is able to give u the M-16s…fine spend and be friend the new village but ur enemy won’t give u time 2 develop ur technology…its like 2 pills one u take and go back 2 thinking that we r great our airforce is great our JFs r great or u take the second pill and think well JF is just a workhorse and ain’t going to ever be able to compete with the F-16s BLK 60s or the Rafales

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

brother Abo Zulfiqar
Where as the logic of not getting M2ks makes sense to all now that things are moving in the right direction, I would add 2 words of caution. One is what happens if FC 20 has a proble m and gets delayed by a yr or so.
Secondly, why are you proposing PAF getting technology for WS10 with TOT ? As far as I know we will only buy and not build FC20s. Dont you think WS 13 makes more sense?
WaSalam
Araz

im an idiot....

I meant WS13....

 

[jupiter2007]

Any update on UAE Mirage-2000-9? Are we still interested in them?

 

[T90TankGuy]

why restart a 3 yr old thread?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Any update on UAE Mirage-2000-9? Are we still interested in them?

Nobody knows. But your question should've been 'Are the UAE AF interested in selling them to the PAF?'
Because even that nobody knows.
Unless somebody wants to sell. somebody cannot buy.
Maybe the whole idea of the M2Ks is 'dead as a dodo'.