What's new

Pakistan's Growing Human Capital

Here's an excerpt of a World Bank report released recently:

while the extreme poor in SSA (Sub-Saharan Africa) represented only 11 percent of the world’s total in 1981, they now account for more than a third of the world’s extreme poor (figure 3). India contributes another third (up from 22 percent in 1981) and China comes next contributing 13 percent (down from 43 percent in 1981).

http://www.worldbank.org/content/dam/Worldbank/document/State_of_the_poor_paper_April17.pdf

WTF; Haq! Was'nt this thread about "Pakistan's Growing Human Capital"??? And you are talking about India, Africa, etc.etc.etc.
Looks like the Goat is still out on the pasture; nibbling here and chewing there, while littering all over the place.
Haq, you can't even remain on the topic that you have chosen; and do you even hope that people will take your feverish outpourings seriously?? :rofl:
 
.
Its only a matter of time, before Barro and Lee realise their mistake or someone points it out to them and they ll fix it. Till then, as an educated person(I presume), least you can do is to point out this glaringly obvious mistake, instead of using it to do your pathetic propaganda. :wave:

Actually Barro lee already admitted their data on completion ratio on India is faulty on their website,But it seems @RiazHaq simply don't want to accept it.What can we say about a man with no integrity and a huge inferiority complex.

Some countries have extremely low or high county specific primary/secondary completion ratios. As these imply unusual trends in the completion ratios, we replaced them by the regional specific primary/secondary completion ratios. These countries include: Afghanistan, Algeria, Austria, Botswana, Democratic Republic of the Congo (only F), Hungary, India, Malta, Myanmar, New Zealand, Portugal (only MF), Sierre Leone, United Kingdom and Zambia.
2011.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
The responses of some of the Indian posters reflect their lack of basic comprehension and poor quality of education as confirmed by PISA ad TIMSS:

PISA%2BIndia%2BBottom.jpg


These results are not only a wake-up call for the "India Shining" brigade, but also raise serious questions about the credibility of India's western cheerleaders like Indian-American journalist Fareed Zakaria and New York Times' columnist Tom Friedman.

Haq's Musings: PISA & TIMSS Confirm Low Quality of Indian Education
 
.
^^Your post clearly shows the bias. Shanghai and Hongkong should have been compared to Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore and not some rural tamilnadu school. Go to country side china and you will be surprised with the results. Common Riaz you are old and wise so come up with better ways to fool people. You clearly know it and still misrepresent the facts with statistical jugglery.
 
.
he have a reason to beleive Vinod!
he is quoting tables and charts with reference and you are talking about bikes and rikshaws!!!

it is obvious who is having more weight!!

Kindly refrain from flaming stupid posts intended at nothing but derailing the thread!

Quoting tables and charts is no big deal. I can do it far better than he ever can.

He is a "scavenger", scavenging the net for anything that suits his pathetic agenda. He will disregard the obvious facts that India has a higher per capita income, higher HDI (medium Vs. Pakistan's low), higher growth rates and much higher levels of scientific and industrial accomplishments.

Now let me prove to you some of the things I mentioned. These are "obvious facts" for anyone who tracks these things. One doesn't have to go to a low quality pathetic blog for them.

1992
Indian per capita income: $278.15
Pakistani per capita income: $412.13

2012
Indian per capita income: $1476.6
Pakistani per capita income: $1006.95

World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer

The other data is easy to validate as well.

Its just that we have no interest in dissing you on your poverty, hunger (90 million hungry Pakistanis), malnutrition and open defecation when that is a common problem for us.

Even if it was not, it is beyond pathetic.

Now some people seem to repeat the same things in a Pavlovian fashion even when the family is defecating in the open.

As of 2006, some 50 million people still practice open defecation in Pakistan, according to the 2006 report of the Joint Monitoring Program (JMP) .

The Story of Pakistan

IRIN Asia | PAKISTAN: Open defecation-free communities - one village at a time | Pakistan | Aid Policy | Health & Nutrition | Water & Sanitation
 
.
^^Your post clearly shows the bias. Shanghai and Hongkong should have been compared to Mumbai, Delhi or Bangalore and not some rural tamilnadu school. Go to country side china and you will be surprised with the results. Common Riaz you are old and wise so come up with better ways to fool people. You clearly know it and still misrepresent the facts with statistical jugglery.

LoL!!!

Even the best performers in Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh - the top 5 percent who India will need in science and technology to complete globally - were almost 100 points behind the average child in Singapore and 83 points behind the average Korean - and a staggering 250 points behind the best in the best.

The average child in HP & TN is right at the level of the worst OECD or American students (only 1.5 or 7.5 points ahead). Contrary to President Obama's oft-expressed concerns about American students ability to compete with their Indian counterparts, the average 15-year-old Indian placed in an American school would be among the weakest students in the classroom, says Lant Pritchett of Harvard University. Even the best TN/HP students are 24 points behind the average American 15 year old.

The 2003 TIMSS study ranked India at 46 among 51 countries. Indian students' score was 392 versus average of 467 for the group. These results were contained in a Harvard University report titled "India Shining and Bharat Drowning".

These results are not only a wake-up call for the "India Shining" brigade, but also raise serious questions about the credibility of India's western cheerleaders like Indian-American journalist Fareed Zakaria and New York Times' columnist Tom Friedman.

When you are the very bottom and the Chinese are at the very top, there's not much left to discuss.

Haq's Musings: PISA & TIMSS Confirm Low Quality of Indian Education
 
. .
LoL!!!

Even the best performers in Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh - the top 5 percent who India will need in science and technology to complete globally - were almost 100 points behind the average child in Singapore and 83 points behind the average Korean - and a staggering 250 points behind the best in the best.

The average child in HP & TN is right at the level of the worst OECD or American students (only 1.5 or 7.5 points ahead). Contrary to President Obama's oft-expressed concerns about American students ability to compete with their Indian counterparts, the average 15-year-old Indian placed in an American school would be among the weakest students in the classroom, says Lant Pritchett of Harvard University. Even the best TN/HP students are 24 points behind the average American 15 year old.

The 2003 TIMSS study ranked India at 46 among 51 countries. Indian students' score was 392 versus average of 467 for the group. These results were contained in a Harvard University report titled "India Shining and Bharat Drowning".

These results are not only a wake-up call for the "India Shining" brigade, but also raise serious questions about the credibility of India's western cheerleaders like Indian-American journalist Fareed Zakaria and New York Times' columnist Tom Friedman.

When you are the very bottom and the Chinese are at the very top, there's not much left to discuss.

Where did you pull that out from????? Can you show me where it is said that top 5% of Tamilnadu and Himachal Pradesh are 100 points behind the top performer? You just make up your random stuff dont you??? Anyways the rational comparison will be between Mumbai/Delhi vs Shanghai/Hong Kong. What are the scores for interior/ Western China??
 
.
Where did you pull that out from????? Can you show me where it is said that top 5% of Tamilnadu and Himachal Pradesh are 100 points behind the top performer? You just make up your random stuff dont you??? Anyways the rational comparison will be between Mumbai/Delhi vs Shanghai/Hong Kong. What are the scores for interior/ Western China??

Have you heard about Prof Lant Pritchett of Harvard Kennedy School?

Here's what he says:

Compared to the economic superstars India is almost unfathomably far behind. The TN/HP average 15 year old is over 200 points behind. If a typical grade gain is 40 points a year Indian eighth graders are at the level of Korea third graders in their mathematics mastery. In fact the average TN/HP child is 40 to 50 points behind the worst students in the economic superstars. Equally worrisome is that the best performers in TN/HP - the top 5 percent who India will need in science and technology to complete globally - were almost 100 points behind the average child in Singapore and 83 points behind the average Korean - and a staggering 250 points behind the best in the best.

Ajay Shah's blog: The first PISA results for India: The end of the beginning
 
.
^^ Again compare rural china with these values. Shanghai/ Hong Kong vs rural Tamilnadu/ Himachal Pradesh govt schools is comparing apples to oranges. You tend to beat around the bush parroting the same thing again and again.

Also there are sampling errors/ limitations in the study. Even the study paper says that. Well whats the point telling you all this, you will ignore those points and go on quoting the same article and results which suit you.


India's participation in PISA 2009+ Cycle: Terminology and Caveats


There are many terms and concepts used in the PISA 2009+ report, which also lays out some caveats in interpreting the results, for Himachal Pradesh and Tamil Nadu in particular. This post looks at the terminology and the caveats described in the detailed report on the PISA 2009+ cycle of tests on the results for the pilot in India in the states of Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh.

Terminology (quoting from the report)

Proficiency levels. To help interpret what students’ scores mean in substantive terms, the scale is divided into bands or levels (based on a set of statistical principles) and then descriptions are generated (based on the tasks that are located within each level) to describe the kinds of skills and knowledge needed to successfully complete those tasks.
For PISA 2009, the range of difficulty of tasks allows for the description of seven levels of reading proficiency: the range of difficulty of tasks allows for the description of seven levels of reading proficiency: Level 1b requires the lowest proficiency, then Level 1a, Level 2, Level 3 and so on up to Level 6. Students with a proficiency estimated to be within the range of Level 1b are likely to be able to successfully complete Level 1b tasks, but are unlikely to be able to complete tasks at higher levels. Level 6 reflects tasks that present the greatest challenge in terms of skills and knowledge. Students with scores in this range in reading are likely to be able to complete reading tasks located at that level successfully, as well as all the other reading tasks in PISA. The mathematics and science scales are divided into six proficiency levels, from Level 1 (least proficient) to Level 6 (most proficient). (p 5)
Baseline level of proficiency: Level 2 is considered a baseline level of proficiency at which students begin to demonstrate the skills that will enable them to participate effectively and productively in life. The percent of students at or above the baseline level of proficiency is the percentage of students at or above Level 2.
Confidence levels: The statistics in this report represent estimates of national performance based on samples of students, rather than values that could be calculated if every student in every country had answered every question. Consequently, it is important to measure the degree of uncertainty of the estimates. The use of confidence intervals provides a way to make inferences about the population means and proportions in a manner that reflects the uncertainty introduced through the sampling of students, and for the tests, the use of a small set of items. From an observed sample statistic it can be inferred that the corresponding population result would lie within the confidence interval in 95 out of 100 replications of the measurement on different samples drawn from the same population. (p 100)
Standard error: Each estimate has an associated degree of uncertainty, which is expressed through a standard error. The standard errors for most of the statistics used in this report are provided in the data tables within Appendix B (abbreviated as S.E.). Standard errors are used to construct the confidence interval. A 95% confidence interval around a statistic is calculated as the statistics value +/- 1.96 × the standard error. (p 100)
Statistical Significance: In the tables, figures and text of this report, differences are labelled or described as statistically significant when a difference of that size or greater would be observed less than 5% of the time in a similar sample drawn from the same population, if there were actually no difference in the corresponding population. Where observed differences do not meet this criterion, they are described as being not statistically significantly different, or as ‘statistically the same’. (p 4)
PISA student populations:
Total population of 15-year-olds is an estimate of the number of 15-year-olds in the country/economy, including those who are not attending educational institutions.
Total population 15-year-olds enrolled in grade 7 or above is the estimate of the PISA eligible population.
Total in national desired population refers to the number of students from the PISA eligible population who are potentially included as part of the PISA sample.
Equity of outcomes within countries: the degree to which there is equality of outcomes among student subpopulations including analyis of
- the differences in educational outcomes between boys and girls;
- the relationship between socioeconomic background and educational outcomes; and
- the relationships between school policies and practice and educational outcomes.
OECD average is the arithmetic mean of the estimates for the 34 OECD countries that participated in PISA 2009. Each country contributes equally to the calculation of the OECD average, regardless of the number of 15-year-olds in its population.

Caveats (quoting from the report)

There seem to have been many issues in the population data provided and the student sampling in Himachal Pradesh (HP) and Tamil Nadu (TN) during the PISA 2009+ cycle. The report lays out the caveats in interpreting the data from these two states in India:

Executive Summary (page xii)
Ten additional partner participants who were unable to participate within the PISA 2009 project timeframe participated in the PISA 2009 study on a reduced and delayed timeline. This is known as the PISA 2009+ project. The ten PISA 2009+ participants administered the same assessments as their PISA 2009 counterparts, the only difference being that the assessments were administered in 2010. The PISA 2009+ countries or economies were adjudicated against the same technical and quality standards as their PISA 2009 counterparts*.

* Himachal Pradesh-India, Miranda-Venezuela and Tamil Nadu-India did not meet all PISA standards (for student sampling) and their results should be interpreted with caution. See ‘Sampling outcomes’ in Appendix A for details.

Data on student populations and exclusions were not supplied or were of insufficient quality to report the following for Himachal Pradesh-India and Tamil Nadu-India [Appendix A - page 101, Table A.2 - Population Coverage Indices - page 102]:
- the number of 15-year-olds in the country/economy, including those who are not attending educational institutions,
- population of 15-year-olds enrolled in grade 7 or above which is the estimate of the PISA eligible population
- number of students from the PISA eligible population who are potentially included as part of the PISA sample

Himachal Pradesh-India and Tamil Nadu-India did not meet PISA standards for student sampling. Due to irregularities in the student sample numbers, it was established after the testing that these economies sampled from student lists that were often incomplete: not all 15-year-olds within the school were listed. It was not possible to determine whether any bias existed in the obtained sample. Caution should be exercised when using the data from Himachal Pradesh-India or Tamil Nadu-India and when interpreting the reported analyses. [Appendix A - Table A. 4 - Student Response Rates & Sample Size - page 104]

In other posts, I had looked at

Programme for International Student Assessment: What? Why? How?
India's participation in PISA 2009+ cycle: The Process
India's participation in PISA 2009+ cycle: Results from Himachal Pradesh and Tamil Nadu

http://prayatna.typepad.com/education/2012/01/india-in-pisa-2009-terminology-and-caveats.html
 
.
Here's more from Prof Lant Pritchett which dismisses shameless apologists for Indian kids terrible performance:

These PISA 2009+ results are the end of the beginning. The debate is over. No one can still deny there is a deep crisis in the ability of the existing education system to produce child learning. India's education system is undermining India's legitimate aspirations to be at the global forefront as a prosperous economy, as a global great power, as an emulated polity, and as a fair and just society. As the beginning ends, the question now is: what is to be done?

Ajay Shah's blog: The first PISA results for India: The end of the beginning
 
.
While we are on that here is some bad newws for Mushy lovers. Pakistani economic decline started during mushy times. He sensed the coming economic turmoil and conveniently ran away installing a democratic govt to take the blame.

Jump in Pakistan’s poverty level
THE previous government had been claiming economic success, saying that poverty had been contained through improved economic management. However, the difference between the claims and facts underlines the importance of adopting a consistent method to measure poverty and avoid political considerations in compiling data.

Giving autonomy to the Federal Bureau of Statistics and other relevant statistical agencies is crucial in this respect, otherwise the statistics released by the government would remain a suspect.


According to latest World Bank estimates, Pakistan ranked most exposed to poverty risks among 43 countries. Its poverty rate jumped from 23.9 per cent to 37.5 per cent in three years. This can be described as devastating.

According to a presentation made by the Planning Commission to the prime minister, the latest estimates indicate that 64 million people were living below the poverty line in 2008 as against 35.5 million people in 2005. The main factors for the plunge were slow economic growth, sudden external shocks, high inflation and shortages in certain cases.

Pakistan’s position in human development index was 136 out of 177 countries, and 40 per cent of the urban population was living in slum areas. The Planning Commission was also not optimistic about future trends in this regard.

The condition for reducing the fiscal deficit to 4.2 per cent of the GDP during the current year had forced the government to slash the development programme, which could further lead to unemployment and accentuate poverty.

The PSDP has already been slashed by Rs100 billion and the government could spend only 19 per cent during the first six months of the current fiscal year out of a total allocation of Rs371bn for the public sector development programme.

It was feared that achieving IMF conditions would ultimately force the authorities to ignore social sector spending and make it impossible for Pakistan to meet the UN Millennium Development Goals.

Although a rise in poverty level was expected between 2005 and 2008, the scale of increase as reported by the Planning Commission is simply baffling.

It is, therefore, critical to finance job creation, delivery of essential services and infrastructure and safety net programmes for the most vulnerable groups of society. To achieve these objectives, it is essential to redesign the fiscal strategy.

Although it looks difficult, a way must be found to reduce poverty and ensure that people on the fringes continue to get at least basic necessities of life like food and medical care at affordable rates during the difficult period.

It is, thus, suggested that the restoration of investor confidence is another area which needs to be given high priority in this context. A higher level of investment would automatically create more jobs, reduce poverty level and promote economic growth.

For this a meticulous planning and commited leadership is needed to get out of the crisis without indulging in statistical trickery.

The following suggestions must be given priority consideration: (a) warlike conditions may be stopped, (b) more attention may be paid to developing rural areas, (c) concentration of development may not be assigned to one place only, (d) all the budget for five years may be reserved for development of industrial units in rural areas, (e) no concentration of industrial areas may be allowed in one place and (f) all funds deposited in foreign countries may be recalled and invested for the betterment of the people.

DR ALI AKBAR DHAKAN
Karachi
Jump in Pakistan
 
. .
Here's more from Prof Lant Pritchett which dismisses shameless apologists for Indian kids terrible performance:

These PISA 2009+ results are the end of the beginning. The debate is over. No one can still deny there is a deep crisis in the ability of the existing education system to produce child learning. India's education system is undermining India's legitimate aspirations to be at the global forefront as a prosperous economy, as a global great power, as an emulated polity, and as a fair and just society. As the beginning ends, the question now is: what is to be done?

Ajay Shah's blog: The first PISA results for India: The end of the beginning

Yes I read that, but he is still using the same study data which has question marks on its reliability by the same study to write his farticle. Professors like that are dime a dozen. Get over it Riaz
 
. .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom