Pakistan's Defense Minister and the Strategic Dilemma Facing Pakistan

[Path-Finder]

Yes, you are correct. 'Absolutely Yes!'.
One reason I started this thread was to show the strategic thinking in Pakistan. The Pakistani Defense Minister Kh. Asif is comparatively a saner voice in Pakistan. The second point was to expose the hypocrisy and the gullibility of the PTI fanbois about the 'Cypher' and the 'American Conspiracy to topple Imran Khan' and about the 'Imported Govt' and about the 'Absolutely Not!' blah blah which propelled Imran to the new heights after April 2022.
Only when people start to recognize how stupid Imran is, and how much of a pathological liar he is, and how opportunistic he is, then we may see a reversal of the Imrandoo Virus pandemic from Pakistan.

you talk so much crap around the clock and talk it so brazenly. how do you do it? have the yanks denied their actions in Pakistan furthermore those americans meeting opposition? there pictures of it too a huge pig was meeting PDM. dullard loo? what about that shit stain?

How about this?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672182020829757440

What do you have to say on that? you keep repeating the same regurgitated crap and think we are so stupid to ignore what is happening in real time.

And that is the other side of the coin - the PTI cultists going “napak fauj” or other demeaning monikers not realizing that the PA(or the overall military) is much more than these mediocre conniving lot and more of the hard working, dedicated, disciplined lot that ensures they do their job and not cross lines either. Yet now those which could have been enfranchised to work alongside reformists within the civilian side are either dejected or defiant and the civil-military divide is an unsealable one now.


Emotional Cultism gets you nowhere - especially from a Brit whose PM cozyed up to Modi as well and is in Indian.

Instead of recognizing the issues with IK and working to ensure PTI survives you like all blind PTI or TLP cultists (no difference apparently In thought process) have their “aleh salam” in their leadership. So go worship IK, put a moorti someplace in your car of him and clasp hands in front of it and start on whataboutism whenever anything is mentioned against him - regardless of whether the other person considers and is on record in multiple posts stating that compared to the scum that is PDM, IK is a better option.

I am amazed at the level of intellect. The nation is bankrupt and to be declared officially as such.

But its methodically obtuse that the disciplined lark are the ones behind 1971 debacle and the shit show we see today.

But the angling against IK will somehow show everyone that he is a narcissist. wardi larks are disciplined.

21 guns salute.

 

[SQ8]

you talk so much crap around the clock and talk it so brazenly. how do you do it? have the yanks denied their actions in Pakistan furthermore those americans meeting opposition? there pictures of it too a huge pig was meeting PDM. dullard loo? what about that shit stain?

How about this?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672182020829757440

What do you have to say on that? you keep repeating the same regurgitated crap and think we are so stupid to ignore what is happening in real time.


I am amazed at the level of intellect. The nation is bankrupt and to be declared officially as such.

But its methodically obtuse that the disciplined lark are the ones behind 1971 debacle and the shit show we see today.

But the angling against IK will somehow show everyone that he is a narcissist. wardi larks are disciplined.

21 guns salute.

that we can agree on - in your case.
Go listen to the PTI version of “Jind meri jaan”
Suits you cultists - be it paujis or youthias

 

[Path-Finder]

that we can agree on - in your case.
Go listen to the PTI version of “Jind meri jaan”
Suits you

lol, I hope your Qibla is not GHQ.

 

[Meengla]

Emotional Cultism gets you nowhere - especially from a Brit whose PM cozyed up to Modi as well and is in Indian.

Instead of recognizing the issues with IK and working to ensure PTI survives you like all blind PTI or TLP cultists (no difference apparently In thought process) have their “aleh salam” in their leadership. So go worship IK, put a moorti someplace in your car of him and clasp hands in front of it and start on whataboutism whenever anything is mentioned against him - regardless of whether the other person considers and is on record in multiple posts stating that compared to the scum that is PDM, IK is a better option.

Though I disagree with you that IK is a better option than PDM--and even Faisal Vowda is starting to say that PTI is so bad that now the old monsters look better--you would notice that a mere slap on the wrist you did by calling Imran a 'Narcissistic' and a 'Pied Piper' evoked such strong abuse against you.

 

[Path-Finder]

that we can agree on - in your case.
Go listen to the PTI version of “Jind meri jaan”
Suits you cultists - be it paujis or youthias

one more thing, is this narcissism?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672163914799538177

 

[SQ8]

Though I disagree with you that IK is a better option than PDM--and even Faisal Vowda is starting to say that PTI is so bad that now the old monsters look better--you would notice that a mere slap on the wrist you did by calling Imran a 'Narcissistic' and a 'Pied Piper' evoked such strong abuse against you.

I don’t consider Wadwa any better - I lived in the city where he is mayor and know exactly what he and his party are.

PTI though has some analogy within Trumpism because it too was a populist movement.

one more thing, is this narcissism?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1672163914799538177

No, its called being a simpleton fool - however, in the context of this discussion it is whataboutism and nothing more. No different from a redneck trump supporter talking on Hillary’s emails while the discussion is on Trump’s current legal predicament.

Two wrong dont make a right

lol, I hope your Qibla is not GHQ.

I hope they teach English to brits these days - clearly you didn’t get good education in it

 

[Jango]

Faisal Vowda is starting to say that PTI is so bad that now the old monsters look better

Take some time to ponder why Vawda became anti-PTI ever since IK took a stance against the current DG ISI

 

[Meengla]

Take some time to ponder why Vawda became anti-PTI ever since IK took a stance against the current DG ISI

I think from my starting to follow Pakistani poiticians since the NCM of April 2022, Vawda and most others stand out as sleaze-balls, especially the likes of Fayyaz Chowan.
You want to see ideological workers in Pakistan: Then find in TTP, TLP and maybe in Jamaat e Islami, but even there it is all ultimately about power. But then... globally idealogies are dying and have been dying especially since the Fall of the Soviet Union. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I digress.

 

[Jango]

I think from my starting to follow Pakistani poiticians since the NCM of April 2022, Vawda and most others stand out as sleaze-balls, especially the likes of Fayyaz Chowan.
You want to see ideological workers in Pakistan: Then find in TTP, TLP and maybe in Jamaat e Islami, but even there it is all ultimately about power. But then... globally idealogies are dying and have been dying especially since the Fall of the Soviet Union. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I digress.

You missed the larger point, but I would digress as well. There are some ideological workers still in PTI, and for that matter in PML and PPP too to some extent. THe likes of Omer Cheema, Yasmin Rashid, Mehmood Ul Rashid, heck even Hammad Azhar against all odds. Farrukh Habib, Murad Saeed, Usman Dar, and many others.

 

[nahtanbob]

Yes, you are correct. 'Absolutely Yes!'.
One reason I started this thread was to show the strategic thinking in Pakistan. The Pakistani Defense Minister Kh. Asif is comparatively a saner voice in Pakistan. The second point was to expose the hypocrisy and the gullibility of the PTI fanbois about the 'Cypher' and the 'American Conspiracy to topple Imran Khan' and about the 'Imported Govt' and about the 'Absolutely Not!' blah blah which propelled Imran to the new heights after April 2022.
Only when people start to recognize how stupid Imran is, and how much of a pathological liar he is, and how opportunistic he is, then we may see a reversal of the Imrandoo Virus pandemic from Pakistan.

I never understood the reasons for the fallout between Imran Khan and army leadership. The conspiracy part of my brain was saying the Pakistani Army did not want Imran Khan to take the blame for an unpopular economic program dictated by the IMF. They replaced Imran Khan with a bunch of jokers in March 2022. Now I am not so sure. Maybe there was something going on between Imran Khan and Pakistani Army. Neither side is telling the truth. It is hard to figure out what transpired.

 

[Azadkashmir]

bajwa team crooks made deal wit satan and thought satan will come to their rescue but thats never been satan way he makes a deal with you and watches you humiliate yourself till you die.

 

[313ghazi]

You deserve what is coming at you. Your master USA isn't willing to assist Pakistan in any shape or form. They are looking on safely from a distance and empowering India both militarily and economically AT YOUR EXPENSE.

100%. These people have no self respect.

In this world you get what you take, not what is given to you.

They are happy as slaves.

 

[Meengla]

I never understood the reasons for the fallout between Imran Khan and army leadership. The conspiracy part of my brain was saying the Pakistani Army did not want Imran Khan to take the blame for an unpopular economic program dictated by the IMF. They replaced Imran Khan with a bunch of jokers in March 2022. Now I am not so sure. Maybe there was something going on between Imran Khan and Pakistani Army. Neither side is telling the truth. It is hard to figure out what transpired.

Who can be absolutely certain about what caused the rift between Imran Khan and the military? But here are a few thoughts after closely watching various sources--and I don't want to go all the way back where there are theories about how Imran was put into power by the Establishment and how some of Pakistan's foreign backers were displeased with Imran. My observation is that, soon after the Fall of Kabul in August 2021, rumors started to appear about a rift between Imran and the military. And I believe Imran wanted to appoint the two most important military posts per Imran's liking: The military chief and the ISI Chief. While it was certainly Imran's const. 'right', his motives were not dissimilar to what Nawaz had in mind in 1999: Continual power.
The Pakistani military resisted 'meddling' in its affairs and the rift grew wider. There are credible allies in Imran's team who tried to stop Imran from following such policies. But Imran persisted. So the same military, which literally arm-twisted non-PTI MNAs to support Imran after the 2018 elections, decided to become 'neutral'. And Zardari probably sensed an opportunity for Power and used his money to bring those erstwhile Imran supporters to join the PDM. Zardari had long resisted toppling Imran because he knew that he wouldn't gain a thing as long as the Establishment was behind Imran!! Anyway, Imran was toppled via the NCM vote and yet, from some accounts, he literally and sternly had to be told by visiting military high officials to leave the PM office.

Imran's ego couldn't take that. He had already started to use the anti-Americanism in Pakistan to build up popular support--just like he used his skills to convince even the TTP like militants that he was one of 'their own'. Brilliant rhetoric and it worked--and it works in most places in the world. Look at Trump! But the popular support Imran got still wouldn't matter enough and so, after a few months of the anti-American rhetoric, Imran started to target the Pakistani military chief as Imran (rightly) thought that Bajwa had the sole power. So Imran's rhetorical target changed from America to 'one and only person' Bajwa as the 'traitor'. That was a brilliant 'divide and conquer' strategy: Making both the civilians and the military think only Bajwa was the traitor against 'Pakistan'. But when that didn't work, Imran's rhetoric changed to target the entire Pakistani military Establishment. Meanwhile, the PDM govt, themselves victims of the Establishment multiple times, kept wondering why Imran is getting away with such offenses against the Establishment and rightly suspected the Establishment was secretly still behind Imran in some devious power game--and hence you have some justification for your conspiracy theory!!

But, I think, the military at that time was so burnt out and disgraced in public eyes that they REALLY wanted to stay neutral; the military hates Nawaz Sharif and have no special love for either the PPP and the PMLN. And so months before the May 9 events, credible Pakistani analyst were saying that the Establishment really wants to be neutral this time. Why would they not be? There were no more favorites left in Pakistan who would credibly hold power in Pakistan!! The military topbrass' posh lifestyle wouldn't be threatened by Imran--was it ever threatened by him??

So there is a long list of lies and Imran's follies. All Imran had to do was to wait--just wait--starting from his loss in the NCM. And even during that, he should not have publicly and falsely accused the Americans of the 'regime change' as a sitting PM of Pakistan because with a flick of Biden's pen, Pakistan would have faced a huge economic catastrophe. But he did that and then he started to target the Establishment, which was mind boggling because Imran's real opponents were in the PDM. Just mind-boggling.

Then May 9 happened. Whether Imran did that or not will never be credibly believed or denied in Pakistan. But the new Army Chief in Pakistan is a Zia ul Haq reborn. He's ruthless and determined. And I believe he has the backing of Pakistan's foreign backers to calm-down the country. And he is doing precisely that. What lies ahead is a brutal 'hybrid' govt in Pakistan--a facade of civilian rule with a focus to pull the economy from the brink. The 'Project Imran' failed spectacularly and I don't think the military is in the mood to be the 'nice guys' anymore. A ten-year minimum controlled experiment is unfolding. Will it work? I hope so. Because otherwise, there is an abyss waiting for Pakistan.

 

[nahtanbob]

Who can be absolutely certain about what caused the rift between Imran Khan and the military? But here are a few thoughts after closely watching various sources--and I don't want to go all the way back where there are theories about how Imran was put into power by the Establishment and how some of Pakistan's foreign backers were displeased with Imran. My observation is that, soon after the Fall of Kabul in August 2021, rumors started to appear about a rift between Imran and the military. And I believe Imran wanted to appoint the two most important military posts per Imran's liking: The military chief and the ISI Chief. While it was certainly Imran's const. 'right', his motives were not dissimilar to what Nawaz had in mind in 1999: Continual power.
The Pakistani military resisted 'meddling' in its affairs and the rift grew wider. There are credible allies in Imran's team who tried to stop Imran from following such policies. But Imran persisted. So the same military, which literally arm-twisted non-PTI MNAs to support Imran after the 2018 elections, decided to become 'neutral'. And Zardari probably sensed an opportunity for Power and used his money to bring those erstwhile Imran supporters to join the PDM. Zardari had long resisted toppling Imran because he knew that he wouldn't gain a thing as long as the Establishment was behind Imran!! Anyway, Imran was toppled via the NCM vote and yet, from some accounts, he literally and sternly had to be told by visiting military high officials to leave the PM office.

Imran's ego couldn't take that. He had already started to use the anti-Americanism in Pakistan to build up popular support--just like he used his skills to convince even the TTP like militants that he was one of 'their own'. Brilliant rhetoric and it worked--and it works in most places in the world. Look at Trump! But the popular support Imran got still wouldn't matter enough and so, after a few months of the anti-American rhetoric, Imran started to target the Pakistani military chief as Imran (rightly) thought that Bajwa had the sole power. So Imran's rhetorical target changed from America to 'one and only person' Bajwa as the 'traitor'. That was a brilliant 'divide and conquer' strategy: Making both the civilians and the military think only Bajwa was the traitor against 'Pakistan'. But when that didn't work, Imran's rhetoric changed to target the entire Pakistani military Establishment. Meanwhile, the PDM govt, themselves victims of the Establishment multiple times, kept wondering why Imran is getting away with such offenses against the Establishment and rightly suspected the Establishment was secretly still behind Imran in some devious power game--and hence you have some justification for your conspiracy theory!!

But, I think, the military at that time was so burnt out and disgraced in public eyes that they REALLY wanted to stay neutral; the military hates Nawaz Sharif and have no special love for either the PPP and the PMLN. And so months before the May 9 events, credible Pakistani analyst were saying that the Establishment really wants to be neutral this time. Why would they not be? There were no more favorites left in Pakistan who would credibly hold power in Pakistan!! The military topbrass' posh lifestyle wouldn't be threatened by Imran--was it ever threatened by him??

So there is a long list of lies and Imran's follies. All Imran had to do was to wait--just wait--starting from his loss in the NCM. And even during that, he should not have publicly and falsely accused the Americans of the 'regime change' as a sitting PM of Pakistan because with a flick of Biden's pen, Pakistan would have faced a huge economic catastrophe. But he did that and then he started to target the Establishment, which was mind boggling because Imran's real opponents were in the PDM. Just mind-boggling.

Then May 9 happened. Whether Imran did that or not will never be credibly believed or denied in Pakistan. But the new Army Chief in Pakistan is a Zia ul Haq reborn. He's ruthless and determined. And I believe he has the backing of Pakistan's foreign backers to calm-down the country. And he is doing precisely that. What lies ahead is a brutal 'hybrid' govt in Pakistan--a facade of civilian rule with a focus to pull the economy from the brink. The 'Project Imran' failed spectacularly and I don't think the military is in the mood to be the 'nice guys' anymore. A ten-year minimum controlled experiment is unfolding. Will it work? I hope so. Because otherwise, there is an abyss waiting for Pakistan.

If there is a shred of evidence in what you say the lack of judgement on Imran Khan's part is astounding. Why fight over ISI chief or Army chief appointment when there are bigger fish to fry whether it is anti-corruption, literacy, good governance etc. Beating up needlessly on China, USA and Saudi Arabia when you need their financial help sounds stupid at best and reckless at worst.

 

[Meengla]

If there is a shred of evidence in what you say the lack of judgement on Imran Khan's part is astounding. Why fight over ISI chief or Army chief appointment when there are bigger fish to fry whether it is anti-corruption, literacy, good governance etc. Beating up needlessly on China, USA and Saudi Arabia when you need their financial help sounds stupid at best and reckless at worst.

"Evidence" as given in a court of law won't ever be credibly found or denied.
However, I am CERTAIN, by going through various sources that the rift between Imran and the Establishment started after the Fall of Kabul to the Taliban in August 2021. Dawn.com at that time had started to post news about the rift over the topmost military posts' appointments--look it up: It was not that long ago!! Even Imran's erstwhile allies in politics and media have been pinpointing that error made by Imran. Look at what even Pervez Elahi said long before the May 9, 2013 debacle.

The entire anti-Establishment rhetoric is laughable!! Hahahahahahah!!! Did Imran EVER threaten the perks enjoyed by the military of Pakistan? Did Imran EVER censure the military officials when Imran was in power?? Imran's anti-Establishment rhetoric, which millions of Pakistanis, including the gullible in this forum, really originated after Imran had milked his anti-American rhetoric to gain new heights of popularity. And even then Imran, in a clear tactic, initially only targeted General Bajwa--an obvious tactic of the old 'divide and rule'.

It is so sad that highly educated people--expats with exposures to different cultures, knowledge, and time to 'absorb' the new knowledge fell for such a charlatan: Imran Khan is reckless, stupid, arrogant, Narcissistic and probably also a 'Charsi' who snorts powder late night and runs his mouth off.

PS. What is unfolding, with the IMF loan approval and also the reported support of Arabs and the Chinese going forward: Pakistan's foreign backers want this mess of the last 14+ months to be over and have tacit backing of the current events in Pakistan!