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Pakistan's Defense Minister and the Strategic Dilemma Facing Pakistan

To what extent are they going to? Just because your opinion is that generals are next to prophets or the most intelligent of the generally(pun intended) inept creatures in Pakistan’s ruling elite and political musical chairs doesn’t mean its accurate.
I wholeheartedly agree that IK is a narcissistic pied piper - no other term suits him. However, he did enfranchise the educated middle class who run the country and not the military - and if you cannot see that while sitting in the US for so many years then get out from under the rock and look at how the US economy works.

It is a shame that a senior member like you twist others' words. Where am I lionizing the Pakistani Generals?? At best, I say that they are the last line of Pakistan's defense and if you remove even them, without viable alternatives. you bring down 'Pakistan'.
And you and other PDF Imran fanbois can't be repeating (or confirming) Imran's stupid, Narcistic, and arrogant nature by exaggerating his 'raising awareness' blah blah while conveniently ignoring his monumental stupid decisions. Yeah, the youths are move involved and aware about politics. But so did Altaf Hussein or Hitler and other demagogues. What was Imran raising awareness about anyway? The corruption of the old order? EVERYONE in Pakistan knew that--and why wouldn't people when the other two main political parties had been witchhunting each other for decades before Imran ever became a prominent voice. Or was Imran raising awareness about the 'Regime Change Done By America'? This idiot's popularity after April 2018 was built upon tapping into Pakistanis' Anti-Americanism!! You live in America and yet you don't see what he did??

Imran's main appeal was being a viable 3rd force to replace the old order. In 2018, he could have been an Erdogan of 2003. But instead he chose to be a Nawaz Sharif of 1999.
I know when I see a charlatan. Like Trump, Imran is a charlatan but unlike Trump, Imran has no brain!
 
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You really weren't following politics before this whole mess started were you?

Yes, to be honest, before April 2022, I was not following Pakistan's politics for a long time. But I was born and raised in Pakistan for a ripe age and was aware of the general pressures on Pakistan, of Pakistan's history, of the nature of the Pakistani politics, and of Pakistan's options and also I have been an avid reader of Dawn for decades. And until the NCM of April 2022, I thought Pakistan was in good hands under Imran Khan and I was contently watching Imran hosting the OIC Summit in March 2022.

But that was then. There is nothing anyone can now tell me to convince me that Imran is a rational person who would be a good national leader. I had still had some hopes about him after the NCM April 2022 but his repeated blunders since then have absolutely convinced me that he is the dumbest, the most arrogant, the most self-absorbed, the most confrontational of all Pakistani leaders who rose to the top. And his rapid, spectacular fall is a clear testimony to his credentials.
 
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It is a shame that a senior member like you twist others' words. Where am I lionizing the Pakistani Generals?? At best, I say that they are the last line of Pakistan's defense and if you remove even them, without viable alternatives. you bring down 'Pakistan'.
And you and other PDF Imran fanbois can't be repeating (or confirming) Imran's stupid, Narcistic, and arrogant nature by exaggerating his 'raising awareness' blah blah while conveniently ignoring his monumental stupid decisions. Yeah, the youths are move involved and aware about politics. But so did Altaf Hussein or Hitler and other demagogues. What was Imran raising awareness about anyway? The corruption of the old order? EVERYONE in Pakistan knew that--and why wouldn't people when the other two main political parties had been witchhunting each other for decades before Imran ever became a prominent voice. Or was Imran raising awareness about the 'Regime Change Done By America'? This idiot's popularity after April 2018 was built upon tapping into Pakistanis' Anti-Americanism!! You live in America and yet you don't see what he did??

Imran's main appeal was being a viable 3rd force to replace the old order. In 2018, he could have been an Erdogan of 2003. But instead he chose to be a Nawaz Sharif of 1999.
I know when I see a charlatan. Like Trump, Imran is a charlatan but unlike Trump, Imran has no brain!
projecting much? You literally saw me call IK a pied piper and yet are stuck on the same tone?

However, while in your opinion (and you just admitted that you have NO idea of Pakistani politics or involvement of its demographics until recently ) Everyone was aware or involved it is far from the truth. There was no involvement of the university student in general in politics since the times of APMSO or PPP led movements in the 70-80s.. Zia killed that off. This was the new era in which that which runs Pakistan was getting involved and looking to decide their own future and not some uneducated or ill gotten master like Sharifs or Zardaris.. and you oppose that while in the US? A government for the people, by the people?

Because if you consider the military holy and all that is holding Pakistan together - that is what it says. The military is part of the people and needs to return to the control of its people.
 
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projecting much? You literally saw me call IK a pied piper and yet are stuck on the same tone?

However, while in your opinion (and you just admitted that you have NO idea of Pakistani politics or involvement of its demographics until recently ) Everyone was aware or involved it is far from the truth. There was no involvement of the university student in general in politics since the times of APMSO or PPP led movements in the 70-80s.. Zia killed that off. This was the new era in which that which runs Pakistan was getting involved and looking to decide their own future and not some uneducated or ill gotten master like Sharifs or Zardaris.. and you oppose that while in the US? A government for the people, by the people?

Because if you consider the military holy and all that is holding Pakistan together - that is what it says. The military is part of the people and needs to return to the control of its people.
I think the sense here is, "If not the generals, then are we going to let the corrupt politicians run the show?" Though the concern about corrupt politicians is 100% true, it's also clear that these politicians cannot survive without the Army's leadership. PTI was brought in and taken out by the Army; these parties don't have it in them to survive on their own. So, you remove their (politicians) support base (generals), you remove the corruption. It's literally a logical equation: "If X needs Y to survive, then removing Y will remove X + Y."

People also ignore that the corrupt generals rose on the backs of good generals or (if we're being pessimistic) on the backs of good officers who weren't politically good enough to be picked for a star. In other words, we can mobilize effective commanders if we nullify the corrupt leadership at the top, be it in the military, political space, and even the bureaucracy. The mediocre class (or, as I'd call 'em, "mediocrats") all need each other to survive.
 
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Yes, to be honest, before April 2022, I was not following Pakistan's politics for a long time...

Let's hold on to the rest of your post and the buts and the ifs, and let's just focus on what you said in the originally quoted post, and look at it in context of the above quoted post, and then figure out on what basis did you really write all of that?

As for your readings of DAWN, those sort of things aren't really front page news ;)
 
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Defence Minister Khawaja Asif has said Islamabad does “not have any problem” with the United States developing ties with India, provided that it did not come at Pakistan’s cost.

How can expansion of India and USA relationship not impact Pakistan ?
 
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The referenced article below is Pakistan's biggest strategic problem, which arises from economic problems, which arise from political stability, but since the Russia-Ukraine war, Pakistan's ambivalence between China and USA are getting less and less impatience from the two Superpowers.

In a way, Pakistan is back to the 1950s where the economically very fragile new country of Pakistan had to choose the USSR vs USA and Pakistan, wisely chose the USA then. The same choice is being faced by Pakistan again and, like in the early 1950s, Pakistan's economy is in shambles. The wrongly-cursed Establishment in Pakistan, unlike the fake revolutionaries like Imran Khan or the old corrupt order, know that a choice--a VERY difficult choice--is being thrust upon Pakistan. And the Russia-Ukraine war is making it imperative for Pakistan to be prepared for a choice in the rapidly-changing geopolitical situation around Pakistan. The Eurasian Continent has been the engine of human progress and destruction and it remains so and Pakistan is, fortunately or unfortunately, an integral part of that region.

With this backdrop, this interview of the veteran Pakistani politician and the current Defense Minister Khwaja Asif is very important. Look at this, combined with the recent statement of the Finance Minister Ishaq Dar about the geopolitics around the IMF loan talks and a picture emerges: Pakistan is being asked to make tough choices. [Yeah, such an 'Imported Government'!!]

BTW, Kh. Asif also bluntly worded his views about ties with America in spring 2022 when the then sitting stupid PM of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan was raising anti-American slogans: Mr. Asif's words were something like 'Beggars can't be choosers' to which he added words like 'when we are strong enough we can be more independent'. But PTI fanbois are often blind to the larger picture. A bunch of 'burgers' and expats led by a moron Mr. Imran Khan whose own kids sit in the West while he calls others to literally die for 'freedom' would not understand the hypocrisy and dangerous opportunism of Imran Khan.

But I digressed!

Here is Mr. Asif's views and I believe they reflect the Pakistani Establishment's views.


Defence Minister Khawaja Asif has said Islamabad does “not have any problem” with the United States developing ties with India, provided that it did not come at Pakistan’s cost.

He expressed these views during an interview with News Week published today (Saturday) where he was asked about India expanding its relationship with the US, as well as ties between Islamabad and New Delhi, particularly in context of the Kashmir issue.

“I think we do not have any problem with the United States developing a partnership with India if it is not at the cost of Pakistan,” he said, adding that Pakistan wanted good relationships with its neighbours and regional partners.

“We have common borders with China, we have common borders with Afghanistan, Iran, India. We would like to improve our relationships with them if the relationship is not good. We want to live in peace. If there is no peace there, we will never be able to restore our economy the way we want to restore it,” he said.

In this connection, he also mentioned that Pakistan’s was a “vulnerable economy” and not a very big one.

“All we have is a geographical location, which is strategic, which attracts, I would say, not all the good things, it sometimes attracts some things which really make us even more vulnerable.”

Asif went on to say, “I personally feel that some appreciation is required in Washington about our situation, and we should not be pushed into a situation where we have to make some very hard choices”.

“Our relationship with America for us is very valuable. It has its history. It has some disappointments, some huge disappointments, but still we value our relationship with the United States and we want that relationship to flourish.”

“We are big trade partners, we have a very large Pakistani diaspora in the United States and Pakistani interests over there. So, their business interests are also, considering our size, they are quite attractive and large,” Asif said. “This is something which we have to balance and, under the circumstances, under economic pressures, we are finding it difficult, but we survive.”

The defence minister’s comments come ahead of US State Secretary Antony Blinken’s upcoming visit of Beijing on June 18 and 19 and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Washington days later.

In recent times, US President Joe Biden has made deepening ties with India a cornerstone of his efforts to contain China’s expanding influence, with his administration also hoping to persuade India to buy US military drones.

US President Joe Biden’s national security adviser Jake Sullivan recently said the US expects a “transformational moment” in India ties during Modi’s trip while one of Blinken’s objectives in China will be to manage escalation to ensure that the world’s two biggest military powers do not “veer in to conflict”.

Regarding Blinken’s China visit, Asif expressed hope that affairs might improve between the two countries.

He said it was difficult for Pakistan in the last few decades to maintain the “balancing act between our relationship with the United States of America and with the regional powers like China, our friends in the Arabian Gulf, Iran, and, of course, the Russian Federation also”.

Further, the defence minister said: “The international geopolitical situation sometimes becomes very difficult for us to balance between different interest groups, or different groups which are jockeying for power and international influence. And Pakistan being a vulnerable country, both economically and strategically, it becomes difficult for us.

“I think I’ll come back to my answer to your original question: once we have economic stability in our country, I think we will really be in a better position to handle this situation. Our vulnerability, economic vulnerability, actually exposes us to so many problems, which sometimes we are unable to tackle.”
ان وحشی جانوروں کا قصور نہیں ہے۔ قیادت، خیال، تعمیر قوم، یہ سب نہ تو ان بھیڑیوں کے بس کی بات ہے اور نہ یہ اس کام کے لئے سیاست میں آئے تھے ۔
جب بھی اقتدار کی بات آتی ہے، ان خونخوار جانوروں کے دماغ میں ننگی ناچتی عورتیں، غیر ملکی دورے، مفت کا مال، زمینیں، لوگوں کا خدا بننے کا حق ہی آتا ہے۔

پاکستان کے سیاستدان، سرکاری عہدیدار، اور طاقتور حلقے ایسے ہی ہیں، اور یہی ہماری بدحالی کی وجہ بھی ہے۔
اس سے کوئی فرق نہیں پڑتا کہ اقتدار میں کون ہے۔ یہ سب ایک جیسے ہیں۔
 
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To what extent are they going to? Just because your opinion is that generals are next to prophets or the most intelligent of the generally(pun intended) inept creatures in Pakistan’s ruling elite and political musical chairs doesn’t mean its accurate.

I wholeheartedly agree that IK is a narcissistic pied piper - no other term suits him. However, he did enfranchise the educated middle class who run the country and not the military - and if you cannot see that while sitting in the US for so many years then get out from under the rock and look at how the US economy works.

After hearing him in the recent interview with Wajahat Khan, it does appear that IK is a good human being with a good heart and good intentions (I'm starting with the positives). He is a proud Pakistani, who doesn't at all tolerate any foreign influence (be it US or China) in Pakistan's decision making.

However (here we go), he also appears to have lack of basic political and diplomatic accumen to survive amongst the dirty world of Pakistan politics coctailed with severly power hungry establishment. He did try to balance it for a while, but his impatience and habit of straight shooting captain got to him. He spoke too soon, too much without having a strategy. His only strategy was that awam's love and he thought that will be enough. He relied too much on half backed information from the astonishingly incomptent officials crowding him. He backed off where he should have been stubborn and he was stuborn when he should have re-evaluated.

While he is definitely not the miracle that can drag Pakistan out of this tremendous economic, constitutional and political turmoil she is in, IMHO, he certainly is the best amongst the available options. I hope he has learned his lessions that he is not an invincible captain who can motivate (bully?) a political cricket board and 16 players to lift a world cup. He is now captaining a highly disfuctinal quarter of a billion people and he will habe to step up on patience and diplomacy. He has to understand his limited resources (including incompent subordinates) and play a test match, not a T20. He has to be remorsefull what has happened to the country and what was his and others role in it and figure out how it can move on from here on.

P.S. 1. Being an Indian, I didn't want to give direct references to my innuendos as this will attract the trolls, but "Samajhdaro ko Ishare hi Kafi Hain".

2. This is my first post on ongoing Pakistan's situation since IK's arrest, when I posted a regret post on the way it was handled.
 
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About the OP article: Question is that is the Defense Minister and the Finance Minister using the same 'geopolitics' card to hide their failures in managing the economy by blaming America like Imran did for his ouster (March 2022 forward) or there really is fork in front of Pakistan after just a few more weeks? As I have been saying here, the Russia-Ukraine war is rapidly changing the global (or at least the Eurasian) geopolitics in which Pakistan will have to play its role to the point of taking a side.
Pakistan does not have to take sides in Russia-Ukraine and USA-China conflict. A lot of states have not

Pakistan's real issues are
1. economic crisis
2. India is marching ahead
 
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Any leaders who marginalises the middle class starts to oppress and torture them will only lead a nation to complete economic ruin. We see that clearly today. It's the action of these corrupt selfish leaders which has put pak in the position it is. Now Asif wants the US to appreciate Pak, what a joker.

Who will appreciate a begger leader and it'd begger team who are running around to different world leaders asking for loans. The US only respects economic might, these idiots and their previous ilk have never moved pak forward.
 
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projecting much? You literally saw me call IK a pied piper and yet are stuck on the same tone?

However, while in your opinion (and you just admitted that you have NO idea of Pakistani politics or involvement of its demographics until recently )
At least I am honest enough publicly to say what I had said above. But to exaggerate that to the extent of 'no idea'?? I am still well aware of Pakistan's society and its political history--and far better than the expat kids who probably can't read or write in Urdu. And regardless of whether I paid attention to Pakistan's recent politics, the events after April 2022, which I have been closely following, absolutely convinced me something about Imran Khan: I have concluded that while his 'intentions' may be good, he is a total dumb-a$$ politician. He is where right now because of his dumbness and arrogance, combined with some other adjectives. Ponder that with an open mind. BTW, you and other PDF fanbois playing down Imran's personality as being a mere Narcisistic is disingenuous: He is far worse than a Narcisstic person: He is a total dumbass person to be in the topmost slot in a country like Pakistan.

Because if you consider the military holy and all that is holding Pakistan together - that is what it says. The military is part of the people and needs to return to the control of its people.

Once again you twist my words and that's so unbecoming of a senior like you: I have always said here that the military needs to go back to the barracks. But the way Imran went about that--and by the way he went about that ONLY after the military refused to intervene on his behalf after April 2022--was the wrong way: You bring down the last standing institution in Pakistan, the Pakistan's best and last line of defense, you bring down 'Pakistan'. But then what do the expats care?? Sitting in comfort in richer countries and would play the flute while Pakistan burns.
As I had repeated here many times: Imran in could have been the Erdogan of 2003 in 2018 but Imran chose to be the Nawaz Sharif of 1999.
 
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Pakistan does not have to take sides in Russia-Ukraine and USA-China conflict. A lot of states have not

Pakistan's real issues are
1. economic crisis
2. India is marching ahead

Yes, you are correct. 'Absolutely Yes!'.
One reason I started this thread was to show the strategic thinking in Pakistan. The Pakistani Defense Minister Kh. Asif is comparatively a saner voice in Pakistan. The second point was to expose the hypocrisy and the gullibility of the PTI fanbois about the 'Cypher' and the 'American Conspiracy to topple Imran Khan' and about the 'Imported Govt' and about the 'Absolutely Not!' blah blah which propelled Imran to the new heights after April 2022.
Only when people start to recognize how stupid Imran is, and how much of a pathological liar he is, and how opportunistic he is, then we may see a reversal of the Imrandoo Virus pandemic from Pakistan.
 
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I wholeheartedly agree that IK is a narcissistic pied piper - no other term suits him. However, he did enfranchise the educated middle class who run the country and not the military - and if you cannot see that while sitting in the US for so many years then get out from under the rock and look at how the US economy works.
I am amazed at your benign gutter rhetoric. Right now the nation is being demolished by the very people that are running the show BUT IK is a narcissist! so if IK is a narcissist then what is PDM and Junta?

moohdhi is your country and that skeleton in house blanco jointly made statements against Pakistan. I don't see the non narcissist mofo doing anything for Pakistan.

BUT IK is a narcissist piedpiperer.

what a load of shit.


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I think the sense here is, "If not the generals, then are we going to let the corrupt politicians run the show?" Though the concern about corrupt politicians is 100% true, it's also clear that these politicians cannot survive without the Army's leadership. PTI was brought in and taken out by the Army; these parties don't have it in them to survive on their own. So, you remove their (politicians) support base (generals), you remove the corruption. It's literally a logical equation: "If X needs Y to survive, then removing Y will remove X + Y."

People also ignore that the corrupt generals rose on the backs of good generals or (if we're being pessimistic) on the backs of good officers who weren't politically good enough to be picked for a star. In other words, we can mobilize effective commanders if we nullify the corrupt leadership at the top, be it in the military, political space, and even the bureaucracy. The mediocre class (or, as I'd call 'em, "mediocrats") all need each other to survive.
And that is the other side of the coin - the PTI cultists going “napak fauj” or other demeaning monikers not realizing that the PA(or the overall military) is much more than these mediocre conniving lot and more of the hard working, dedicated, disciplined lot that ensures they do their job and not cross lines either. Yet now those which could have been enfranchised to work alongside reformists within the civilian side are either dejected or defiant and the civil-military divide is an unsealable one now.

I am amazed at your benign gutter rhetoric. Right now the nation is being demolished by the very people that are running the show BUT IK is a narcissist! so if IK is a narcissist then what is PDM and Junta?

moohdhi is your country and that skeleton in house blanco jointly made statements against Pakistan. I don't see the non narcissist mofo doing anything for Pakistan.

BUT IK is a narcissist piedpiperer.

what a load of shit.
Emotional Cultism gets you nowhere - especially from a Brit whose PM cozyed up to Modi as well and is in Indian.

Instead of recognizing the issues with IK and working to ensure PTI survives you like all blind PTI or TLP cultists (no difference apparently In thought process) have their “aleh salam” in their leadership. So go worship IK, put a moorti someplace in your car of him and clasp hands in front of it and start on whataboutism whenever anything is mentioned against him - regardless of whether the other person considers and is on record in multiple posts stating that compared to the scum that is PDM, IK is a better option.
 
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