Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[Khan vilatey]

No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).

The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.

I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.

But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.

Very well written. Why do we need more towed artillery as they provide a much better target in terms of drones etc and are devoid of the shoot and scoot capability in an age of very effective fire finder artillery radars

k

 

[Path-Finder]

No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).

The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.

I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.

But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.

SH15 doesn't have an auto loader! are you sure?

 

[iLION12345_1]

@iLION12345_1 you also used to mention remote firing capability. What exactly is that?


I recommend you read his posts on Al Khalid an VT4. Very informative and well written (and researched).

Remote firing means being able to use the gun “unmanned”, as in, being able to fire it remotely from another location, for example a command post. This is also useful for firing multiple guns at the same time, all stationed at different locations, being controlled from a single command post or command gun. Reduces the manpower needed. It’s not a necessity, but can be useful in some conditions, especially when manpower is needed elsewhere.

Although I must say, I don’t understand the full application of the system yet either, since it also seems a little counterintuitive in some occasions to be leaving guns unmanned/with a smaller crew.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Very well written. Why do we need more towed artillery as they provide a much better target in terms of drones etc and are devoid of the shoot and scoot capability in an age of very effective fire finder artillery radars

k

Towed arty does have a few advantages over SP. One being weight and size, another being cost, and a third one being a lack of constraints that may come with having to design the gun carrier under the gun. Without that carriage, the guns capabilities can be greater, as they don’t have to factor in things like recoil (though modern tech has mostly covered this gap). It comes down to doctrine at the end of the day, PA prefers SPs over Towed, IA prefers Towed over SP. While this does allow IA to have a larger lead in Towed arty than we do in SP, I do think our strategy is more superior and forward thinking as more modern SP guns are starting to cover the demerits of the older ones over towed arty, doubly so in the case of wheeled SPs.

Very well written. Why do we need more towed artillery as they provide a much better target in terms of drones etc and are devoid of the shoot and scoot capability in an age of very effective fire finder artillery radars

k

Also note; well trained towed artillery crew can be just as mobile over most terrains as SP arty. That’s where the towing vehicles come into play. Shoot and scoot is still fully applicable

SH15 doesn't have an auto loader! are you sure?

Yes, I’m sure, it has a semi-automatic loader and not a fully automatic one unlike most Wheeled SP guns. You can see the large box on the back when it’s present.
While it does make it considerably lighter (something that was important for China in regards to their terrain and airlift capability), it does reduce the ROF and remove remote firing capabilities.

 

[iLION12345_1]

any idea of numbers on both sides (sp and tg)?

SPs are easy to keep track of, Towed guns not as much.
PA has nearly 550 SPs before any SH-15 orders (200 or more expected). India has 100, with 200 more on order.

India has over 2000 Towed artillery guns. Don’t really know the exact numbers but 2200~ would be a decent estimate.

Pakistan has somewhere between 1700-2500 depending on the estimate you use, I would say the numbers are maybe 2000~ At most, yes it’s quite a large spectrum, but too many of these guns are old or small calibre (105MM and below) and don’t have modern FCS or other systems, unlike the Indian guns. PA is working on this domain as well, HIT is making a towed arty gun for PA, foreign options will likely be considered too.

 

[Basel]

I can confirm that Pakistan has received operational units of SH-15 (more than 50), deal included TOT on its ERFB ammo as well. Details of the transfer already shared with @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Did PA purchased WS-36 shells?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

What happened to HITs towed howitzer?

 

[iLION12345_1]

What happened to HITs towed howitzer?

Still under trials, PA has not officially opened the trials/requirements for their Towed howitzers yet AFAIK. They’re focusing on SPs according to their doctrine atm. I’m sure they’ll start looking at towed guns after, HITs option should be among the competitors for that along side foreign options.

 

[truthseeker2010]

SPs are easy to keep track of, Towed guns not as much.
PA has nearly 550 SPs before any SH-15 orders (200 or more expected). India has 100, with 200 more on order.

India has over 2000 Towed artillery guns. Don’t really know the exact numbers but 2200~ would be a decent estimate.

Pakistan has somewhere between 1700-2500 depending on the estimate you use, I would say the numbers are maybe 2000~ At most, yes it’s quite a large spectrum, but too many of these guns are old or small calibre (105MM and below) and don’t have modern FCS or other systems, unlike the Indian guns. PA is working on this domain as well, HIT is making a towed arty gun for PA, foreign options will likely be considered too.

2300 guns for army of 1.2 million is way underequiped. I think it would be at least 3000+ given that pak has 2000.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Still under trials, PA has not officially opened the trials/requirements for their Towed howitzers yet AFAIK. They’re focusing on SPs according to their doctrine atm. I’m sure they’ll start looking at towed guns after, HITs option should be among the competitors for that along side foreign options.

With this massive SPG deal they should have gotten licensed production deal and used the know how to fast track local gun programe.

 

[iLION12345_1]

2300 guns for army of 1.2 million is way underequiped. I think it would be at least 3000+ given that pak has 2000.

Not really, it’s not just the quantity here they matters, it’s also the quality. Most of not all the Indian guns are 152MM or greater in caliber with modern FCS, ammo and other systems. And over 40% or PAs towed guns are 120MM caliber or below with no modern FCS or ammo. Their 2300 guns are 2300 guns. Our 2000 guns are like 1100 large caliber guns of which a fraction are actually modern.

With this massive SPG deal they should have gotten licensed production deal and used the know how to fast track local gun programe.

I’m pretty sure ToT is included with SH15, although no confirmation yet. HIT already makes good artillery barrels, it’s the rest of the system they’re making for the first time, but the barrel is the hardest part.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not really, it’s not just the quantity here they matters, it’s also the quality. Most of not all the Indian guns are 152MM or greater in caliber with modern FCS, ammo and other systems. And over 40% or PAs towed guns are 120MM caliber or below with no modern FCS or ammo. Their 2300 guns are 2300 guns. Our 2000 guns are like 1100 large caliber guns of which a fraction are actually modern.


I’m pretty sure ToT is included with SH15, although no confirmation yet. HIT already makes good artillery barrels, it’s the rest of the system they’re making for the first time, but the barrel is the hardest part.

I think the Army's SPH procurement may depend on HIT's in-house gun. If it meets the Army's requirements, HIT may develop it further into a truck-mounted SPH. This solution may give the Army that relatively low-cost solution to supplant the bulk of its guns.

 

[Raja Porus]

Also note; well trained towed artillery crew can be just as mobile over most terrains as SP arty. That’s where the towing vehicles come into play. Shoot and scoot is still fully applicable

 

[Zarvan]

No problem. The SH-15 is actually a rather smart choice by the PA. I like that They didn’t pick a tracked option because frankly all the tracked options based off the M109, including the K9 inducted by india, the T-155 from Turkey and most versions of the M109 (even the new A7s) are honestly just average at best. They have fundamental design flaws that can’t be fixed unless they are redesigned from the ground up (one of the reasons countries like Germany, Britain etc retired their M109s and made their own guns).

The Chinese and Russian tracked SPs on the other hand are really impressive. I’m totally speculating here, but if PA does go all in on SH-15s, we might see PLZ-05s as a future replacement option for PAs M109s as well. I assume PAs decision to go for a wheeled SP was also influenced by cost and versatility, PAs doctrine focuses a lot on SPs and they already have nearly 600 tracked ones, yet they want a significantly larger number, so going for wheeled makes sense, especially ones with dedicated transport platforms underneath that shouldn’t have much of an issue in any terrain, even our deserts (especially when the engineers operate with them). While tracked SPs offer their own distinct advantages, These are more mobile than tracked SPs and they also out range Indias K9s while also being cheaper.

I’m mildly surprised PA went for the SH-15 given it doesn’t have an auto-loader and they wanted one on their next SP (I was expecting them to pick the South African or Serbian option), but then again this one’s from China so they likely got much a much better deal + ToT + interoperability with the rest of the assets like VT-4 and Z-10ME. Plus the SH-15 due to this lack of auto-loader is much lighter, hence more mobile, and also cheaper, while having a gun that’s just as, if not more capable than the other options.
China was even willing to modify the guns to Pakistani specifications, as they always are. That being said, PA might go for two separate new SP artys due to the aforementioned auto-loader (and other requirements), they do seem to be conducting second trials after all, so we’ll see where thag goes.

But in a nutshell, the performance of this thing is no issue, I don’t know how any of the guns performed in actual trials, but they were literally all good picks on paper (Nora B52, SH-15, South African G6 etc) , I’d have been happy if PA picked any single one. Now I hope PA starts catching up on the towed artillery side of things too, because india dominates that field as much as we dominate the SPs.

We didn't went for tracked one because right now we were looking for wheeled ones. Right now we have enough of M-109. We would upgrade them further and when time will come we would look for tracked ones also. Turkey and China will be main contenders in that one also. Right now PA was looking for wheeled ones and we got them now. As for towed that is also under works.

 

[ARMalik]

There is Much more stuff on its way across all services. Serious Heavy Military build continues.