Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Small objection Humvee became a death trap similarly to our pickups when Iraq saw scores of Humvee getting blown to shreds causing the US to go and Purchase South African RG31 MRAP. Which was followed by engineers from South Africa working with US truck makers to provide MRAPS up till present time. This Spanish vehicle is a Humvee as well.

I maybe wrong BUT the need for MRAPS will never subside as IED's Suicide attacks on army convoy are not going away anytime soon! All Nations are stockpiling MRAPS just look at Kuwait smaller than Lahore and more MRAPS than PA!

Yea, but the Humvee was mentioned in the context of general utility, not COIN.

 

[Army research]

Small objection Humvee became a death trap similarly to our pickups when Iraq saw scores of Humvee getting blown to shreds causing the US to go and Purchase South African RG31 MRAP. Which was followed by engineers from South Africa working with US truck makers to provide MRAPS up till present time. This Spanish vehicle is a Humvee as well.

I maybe wrong BUT the need for MRAPS will never subside as IED's Suicide attacks on army convoy are not going away anytime soon! All Nations are stockpiling MRAPS just look at Kuwait smaller than Lahore and more MRAPS than PA!

Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

...anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?

Unlikely since Pakistan didn't really pursue the towed Panter @Arsalan

 

[Arsalan]

Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?

Unlikely.

I have heard on this forum that Turkish have done some modification in the gun system and that they are fully operation with Turkish armed forces now. However as far as PA is concerned they were not very impressed with the system. The only possibility will be that we get to see that modified gun, it suites our needs and then we opt for the same technology, both in the towed guns in shape of Panter and also the upcoming wheeled SPH version if the same. However as mentioned by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is all very unlikely. For now, T5-52 and Nora B52 are the two options and we are going for one of them. The next step (logically) will be tracked SPH and our first choice is likely to me more M109s from USA. However there are some very impressive Chinese options available as well.

Personally, i will like our top brass to work on a universal modular platform on the lines of Armata. Get one hull that then meets our needs of next generation tank, SPH, IFVs, Recovery Vehicle, APC and may be even anti-air point defence system. This will be a long term solution. The basic idea will be to design or seek a modern hull with good design features and excellent materials and couple it with two or may be even three different types of engines to make the basic platform for all the above mentioned roles. For examples, a 1500hp engine for the tank and a 1200hp or even 800hp for SPH, IFV and other stuff. Next is a modern APS suite, ideally with some hard kill mechanism to be fitted where required. This will address our needs for coming decades and we can focus our energies on other things as the mechanized divisions will be able to handle pretty much anything our adversary an throw at them and will give us our own ARMATA! I just wish the concept is there. We may seek other systems in relatively lower numbers to get our hands on all the required technologies. Like dealing with Ukraine in tanks (OPLOT version) may give us access to that engine tech. We can do the same for other sub systems, get the best bang for buck from various suppliers and use it all to make a tailor made platform to meet all our needs.

 

[Zarvan]

Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?

If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8

@Path-Finder @Arsalan

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Unlikely.

I have heard on this forum that Turkish have done some modification in the gun system and that they are fully operation with Turkish armed forces now. However as far as PA is concerned they were not very impressed with the system. The only possibility will be that we get to see that modified gun, it suites our needs and then we opt for the same technology, both in the towed guns in shape of Panter and also the upcoming wheeled SPH version if the same. However as mentioned by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) it is all very unlikely. For now, T5-52 and Nora B52 are the two options and we are going for one of them. The next step (logically) will be tracked SPH and our first choice is likely to me more M109s from USA. However there are some very impressive Chinese options available as well.

Personally, i will like our top brass to work on a universal modular platform on the lines of Armata. Get one hull that then meets our needs of next generation tank, SPH, IFVs, Recovery Vehicle, APC and may be even anti-air point defence system. This will be a long term solution. The basic idea will be to design or seek a modern hull with good design features and excellent materials and couple it with two or may be even three different types of engines to make the basic platform for all the above mentioned roles. For examples, a 1500hp engine for the tank and a 1200hp or even 800hp for SPH, IFV and other stuff. Next is a modern APS suite, ideally with some hard kill mechanism to be fitted where required. This will address our needs for coming decades and we can focus our energies on other things as the mechanized divisions will be able to handle pretty much anything our adversary an throw at them and will give us our own ARMATA! I just wish the concept is there. We may seek other systems in relatively lower numbers to get our hands on all the required technologies. Like dealing with Ukraine in tanks (OPLOT version) may give us access to that engine tech. We can do the same for other sub systems, get the best bang for buck from various suppliers and use it all to make a tailor made platform to meet all our needs.

Be it the NORA B-52, T5-52 or (for discussion's sake) Panter, media rumours have it that Pakistan will seek to manufacture 80% of its order domestically. If they're finally going to pull in a 155 mm gun, then I suspect it'll be for towed, wheeled SPH and, in time, tracked SPH. Should the gun be accessible, then building an armoured turret and placing it on a chassis, even a tank chassis, is doable - and there are several, e.g. South Africa, Slovenia, Poland, Ukraine, etc - with experience doing it.

 

[Arsalan]

If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8

@Path-Finder @Arsalan

The numbers will matter here. Plus we are talking about SPH not IFV or wheeled APC here. The main thing is about the artillery procurement, Wheeled SPH to be exact.

Be it the NORA B-52, T5-52 or (for discussion's sake) Panter, media rumours have it that Pakistan will seek to manufacture 80% of its order domestically. If they're finally going to pull in a 155 mm gun, then I suspect it'll be for towed, wheeled SPH and, in time, tracked SPH. Should the gun be accessible, then building an armoured turret and placing it on a chassis, even a tank chassis, is doable - and there are several, e.g. South Africa, Slovenia, Poland, Ukraine, etc - with experience doing it.

True sir. BTW, we do make those 125 barrels for our tanks, perhaps we should have ventured working on a 155mm for artillery too. However that have not happened.

 

[denel]

I will however say that Buffel MRAP the one I mentioned is far far cheaper than the other ones available like MAXXPRO and Toyota pickup plus we can get them for peanuts. Literally peanuts, Sri Lanka is making them under license and so can we. My whole argument is Buffel is far better protection than the death trap Toyota Pickups. If Buffle can Survive the extremely harsh environment like Namibia then it will be absolutely at home in Pakistan. @denel can back me up here!

absolutely. ther are thousands lying in storage outside Pretoria and Bloemfontien.

 

[Path-Finder]

Not that I object your views but kuwait is smaller than Lahore, but extracts more oil than all of Pakistan, for them purchasing and maintaining (fuel) MRAPS shouldn't be a problem. As for Pakistan , hopefully something is being worked out for MRAP production but before these we have a more urgent need of IFVs, anyways could the Turkish panter based SPH factor into PA plans ?

What would be extra cost for maintenance? maintenance will be lower if its made in Pakistan 100% surely?

If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8

@Path-Finder @Arsalan

I read that post by horus and as always I will wait for official confirmation. before Turkey there was talk of IFV from China which according to some people was as good as done deal. but nothing further happened other than years went by and the news got old.

 

[Zarvan]

What would be extra cost for maintenance? maintenance will be lower if its made in Pakistan 100% surely?


I read that post by horus and as always I will wait for official confirmation. before Turkey there was talk of IFV from China which according to some people was as good as done deal. but nothing further happened other than years went by and the news got old.

After wheeled IFV is next and you may never hear any official announcement you would only a picture of it in Pakistan army use or a video of some exercise where you would see this weapon. From China and Pakistan we now a days most of the times quietly get a weapon

 

[Path-Finder]

After wheeled IFV is next and you may never hear any official announcement you would only a picture of it in Pakistan army use or a video of some exercise where you would see this weapon. From China and Pakistan we now a days most of the times quietly get a weapon

If it comes from Turkey we will know about it as they will announce it in their news. Only China keeps things tight lipped.

 

[Basel]

I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!

You are such as a**!!!


Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).

AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs



T5-52.




G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)

Your post about G-6 suggest it can be good contender to be part of strike units of PA.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

If upcoming Turkish SP Truck Mounted Artillery is exactly based on Panter than it has not chance of coming to Pakistan because Panter is way to heavy. From Turkey we need to get IFV and MRAP. By the according many haven't bothered to ready a post of @Horus on Turkish Land and Vehicle section he claims or it seem he is claiming that Pakistan has selected PARS 8 X 8

@Path-Finder @Arsalan

This gonna be Awesome we need them in very good Numbers

this gonna be awesome with this Turret installed on top of PARS 8x8

 

[Zarvan]

If it comes from Turkey we will know about it as they will announce it in their news. Only China keeps things tight lipped.

Many things we get from Turkey are not announced but I think the upcoming defence exibition we would sign deal for both ships and these APC

 

[Path-Finder]

Many things we get from Turkey are not announced but I think the upcoming defence exibition we would sign deal for both ships and these APC

Hazrat APC is not the size of the match box. Images would appear online and you would likely post them.