Munition TOT is very much part of the deal.
Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions
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MH.Yang
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iLION12345_1
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I mean no offense, but you know absolutely nothing about the trials or PAs requirements and you’re well known for being extremely biased towards China. You have absolutely zero sources to prove your claims that western SPs wouldn’t do as well in the mountains as Chinese ones, And there’s nothing to point towards that fact anyways given the Western SPs cover for their increased weight with increased power and better transport platforms (SH-15 doesn’t have a dedicated platform below It, it uses a generic military truck, and even had a few ground clearance issues due to that, but you don’t see me bringing those up because they’re minor issues). I swear to god if the SH-15 had an auto-loader you’d be vehemently defending it right now for the sole fact that it’s made by the glorious Chinese republic that can do absolutely no wrong.
You’re trying to defend the Chinese SP despite me not even calling it bad. I already explained what The possible reasons could be for PAs decision to pick it, that obviously means it passed the trials when it came to range, mobility and other specifications, that doesn’t mean a compromise couldn’t have been made. So Please, Stop making stuff up, thank you.
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Are you telling me PA pick a SP that don't fits it requirement? What I mention are correct. Those bulky western SP don't perform well in hilly terrain. Condition for the SP to operate in those terrains are one of the requirement. SH-15 win the contest.
iLION12345_1
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No I’m telling you that you don’t know anything about PAs requirements. There’s a difference. I’ll leave it at that.
iLION12345_1
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I don’t doubt that there are many Chinese members here who are Unbiased in their posting, are actually knowledgeable about Chinese weaponry, and have links to the Chinese defense industry, I respect all such posters. You are not one of them. You find an issue where there is none.
And as if Pakistanis here no biased against Chinese arms and u r are definitely one of them. I have even seen Pakistanis member make the claim about JF-17 more sophisticated than J-10C before PAF chosen it as new fighter.
araz
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Have you gone bonkers or something? No one is biased. However people are allowed to express an opinion which reflects their experiences/knowledge. The Chinese have made substantial progress in their armaments industry and some of their products are good. In other areas they still lag behind. You make it look as if pointing out a deficiency is a slur on China. This sort of attitude is uncalled for and counterproductive.
The other aspect of this debate is when one buys an item it may not be the best in the market but may be adequate for the purpose. The reasons are many, price being one of them, ease of service, easy replacement, provision of TOT allowing buyer to establish the industry are others. It is not a question of having chosen the best but what suits us and our pockets. What is so difficult to understand with this concept?
Your incessent arguments are becoming boring and reflect poorly on the relationship between China and Pakistan and your own knoeledge. Please stop this silly childish attitude or you will be asked to leave.
A
I just want to have a last sentence. If you think there is no biased from Pakistanis side regards to Chinese weapon, you are just in denial. I am not claiming it all but definitely certain element from Pakistan that will regard anything from China as inferior to west. One of your long time senior members like @Super Falcon is great example. I think I do not want to explain it more.
Plenty of mis comparison, plenty of biased and mis information. Like some who can claim VT-5 is not a good tank. In what way, its not a good tank in its category as light tank? Precisely, it has the tag as light tank. Its not gonna fight a M1A2 or Challenger 2 on a sea level flat hard terrain. So that means its not a good tank? @iLION12345_1
Finally, flip thru the VT-4 tank earlier thread and see how much hatre and misinformation against this tank from many long time Pakistanis members , only for haters to eat humble pie when its selected by PA as it main strike force. Go ahead and keep denial there is no biased and no preference. I been here long enough to know whats happening.
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SD 10
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there is a biase , or maybe i noted it but it will go away with time as Pakistan further transition away from the west but it will take time. Most of the people here grow up watching american arms kicking Indian *** but with time Chinese arms will do the same and the opinion will change. Its easier for me to say mainly because i am much younger than the normal audience of pdf so give it some time. No one disputes China's role in helping Pakistan and if someone does, well there is no bigger fool than them but leave it. Opinions will change with time. We Pakistanis are slow learners!
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araz
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People on an open forum are allowed to express an opinion based on what they know. @iLION12345_1 has merely exercised his right and when questioned has presented the reasons for the opinion. As explained earlier Pakistan's choice of a weapons system is not only based on the best in the world but what is financially and otherwise viable as a project. If someone says XYZ system lacks ABC hardware it is not a sin to say so nor is it a bias.
People like you and a few more of your ilk are entirely the reason why senior posters have stopped posting due to harrassment by posters when faults of a system are counted.
I can respond to the glaring deficiencies in the Chinese system in the 90s as was related to me by senior PAF officials but obviously things have moved on . Are the Chinese now the best?........ NO. Are they getting there? Very definitely Yes.
The point I am trying to make is on several occasions the Chinese have come back with better products when one product is rated as deficient. Its relationship with PAF has evolved because of this aspect. It is what makes them better in that they learn from the input they get and improve their products more to satisfy the customer. I can give you 3-4 examples. We know the Z10 was sent back after extensive trials. J10A had problems poimted out by PAF. JFT radar saga with Leonardo Radars and then Chinese production of KLJ7 improved on PAF demands for a competitive system. Block 2 had MAWS from Indra till the Chinese came out with the ones on Block 3.
054A missiles are not as good as the ones on MILGEMS, till the Chinese come out with better ones.
I personally dont see a problem with pointing out what is wrong with systems as the Chinese make an effort to get a better system on board.
Your failure to understand this is simply a very myopic view point and needs to stop. I know you have been shown the door before for similar behaviour and if you dont stop this it will happen again.
The ball is very much in your court.
A
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iLION12345_1
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Again, you find a problem where there is none, I didn’t even call the VT-5 bad, it’s just that you lack basic comprehension skills. I said it’s not good for Pakistan because we have no use for it, a proper MBT is more useful for Pakistan. That’s why we buy the VT-4 and make the Al-Khalid-1. Though to be fair, the VT-5 is only average at best itself when it comes to light tanks.
As for your VT-4, it’s criticism was justified, it’s not a good MBT when compared to what else is available in the world apart from maybe in some of it’s C4I and Fire control systems BUT It’s the best by a long margin in the Indo-Pak theatre though, and the best option available for Pakistan.
In fact China doesn’t make any tank that’s comparable to the best of what’s available in the west or Russia, the ZTZ-99A is also average at best. It improves upon firepower and protection a little bit over the VT-4, but falls behind in technology, so it ends up at the same place. but don’t take it from me, I’m far too biased.
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Raja Porus
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@iLION12345_1 is the ammo of M109 compatible with PLZ-45? It is 45.cal while M109 is 52.cal
Another great option for PA to induct as new Gun and can be use to replace old M109 the way China coming Up in military Hardware field is simply amazing no doubt they will leave US behind in future
Zarvan
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This one and newly upgraded Turkish one could be our next target. Also I hope in towed artillery we consider AH 4.
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