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Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

LOL.

We don't need creativity. We need two artillery divisions with converging fire trajectories firing shells 45 kms in and around the areas hinted at for deployment of all the brand new armoured brigades and motorised infantry formations being put together. The creativity can come later; at the moment, we need to hold what we have.

We don't need to conquer a country several times bigger than ours for the sake of lebensraum; we don't need to drive through armies stronger than ours; we just need to see off whoever wants to shoot us up. :enjoy:
half measures buddy
or i must say desperate measures
from both sides
 
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Sir, that is very far from correct. I have worked in the steel industry in India and abroad for 12 years, and have worked in every single kind of specialisation of a particular kind of product, uniquely in Indian industry. If you look for Bharat Forge and look for what they are doing, in conjunction with specialised manufacturers of steel billets and barrel blanks, you might get a different view of things.

I have no comment about Germany in WWII, but very many of those whom I knew were trained in Germany, in the best metallurgical industries there. When I read some stuff in some other post on this thread (not yours), I was aghast at the abysmal ignorance on display. On reading your present post, I can only reflect that for someone who for his age and service has displayed almost an encyclopaedic knowledge of matters military, this is a little lacking.

My apologies if I have spoken out of turn.


Hon Joe Shearer,

What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.

As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.

Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.

I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.
 
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half measures buddy
or i must say desperate measures
from both sides

I was joking; channeling an aggressive bhakt bent on death and destruction.

Hon Joe Shearer,

What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.

As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.

Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.

I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.

Dear Niaz Sahib,

I have never made any bones about my high regard for your interventions; it is an honour that you chose to write on this. How I wish there was a climate conducive to allow a free movement of technicians between our two countries; even - I know I am being foolish, given today's dire straits that one of us is in - a collaboration to explore space together, with the wonderful engineers and scientists cordially welcoming other south Asian nations and nationals to participate.

My sincere good wishes for this holy month, and I hope you and your near and dear ones are enduring our afflictions of disease with fortitude and in comfort.
 
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I think the 100 km range being discussed is for rockets fired through the gun. I also don't think India is a benign state only looking to defend itself. This statement falls flat on how the status of Kashmir was unilaterally changed and sabre rattling by Indian officials about taking back Pakistani Kashmir.

Making basic grades of steel is one thing. Turning them into guns quite another. Going back in history, the British found that if they made canon balls by casting using fine graphite powder they could make smoother casts, which gave them a strategic advantage - giving them the ability to shoot their guns further out and lower gun wear and tear.

Did it matter how good the steel of the canon balls were? Probably did but less so than the manufacturing method. If I had to guess, this was also the problem with the Turkish artillery imported - they just weren't tough enough - not because they were made with sub-standard steel, but because of the various treatments that the West has perfected over time and history.

At the heart of this advantage of the West - which in their communities they mention - is the poor metallurgical intellectual maturity of the East. At the most basic level, our boys can go to the West and get a degree after memorizing notes, but few if any of them have a hands on "playing with the process".

Just go on Youtube and you will find all kinds of white guys making videos about bullion, steel, metal works, from bubas to sophisticated sounding Europeans. There are no Muslim or Indian equivalents of this. You had recently a Texan in his garage figuring out how Muslims made Damascus blades (also known as blades from Hind, or blades of India) that were the renowned swords of the elite Ottoman Janissaries.

These swords were not replicable until this buba figured it out. No one, for centuries could build them anymore. They would glow lightly in the dark and later research found nanotube construction. Known famously to cut through a falling silk scarf. And very likely a concept that gave rise to the Star Wars light saber.

When you don't have that level of a culture of metallurgy, or even a remote culture of metallurgy (you'll almost never find a desi graduate doing his own metal works and having fun with it), you really don't have a competitive basis for metallurgical innovation. I would wager, you won't find a Masters degree holder actually playing around with his trade.

You see, most of our graduates are trained from a young age to hate education but treat it as a social status. They earn degrees, often by rote learning, not because knowledge excites them but because their families and society expects them to get these degrees. These paper degrees really have little to no use for actually achieving technological advantage.

If you look further, you'd find "Lord" Macauley's Minute on Indian Education, and some underpinnings on why our whole educational epistemology is messed up, which ultimately nips us intellectually from the bud.

Anyways, my apologies for branching out.
 
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I think the 100 km range being discussed is for rockets fired through the gun. I also don't think India is a benign state only looking to defend itself. This statement falls flat on how the status of Kashmir was unilaterally changed and sabre rattling by Indian officials about taking back Pakistani Kashmir.

Making basic grades of steel is one thing. Turning them into guns quite another. Going back in history, the British found that if they made canon balls by casting using fine graphite powder they could make smoother casts, which gave them a strategic advantage - giving them the ability to shoot their guns further out and lower gun wear and tear.

Did it matter how good the steel of the canon balls were? Probably did but less so than the manufacturing method. If I had to guess, this was also the problem with the Turkish artillery imported - they just weren't tough enough - not because they were made with sub-standard steel, but because of the various treatments that the West has perfected over time and history.

At the heart of this advantage of the West - which in their communities they mention - is the poor metallurgical intellectual maturity of the East. At the most basic level, our boys can go to the West and get a degree after memorizing notes, but few if any of them have a hands on "playing with the process".

Just go on Youtube and you will find all kinds of white guys making videos about bullion, steel, metal works, from bubas to sophisticated sounding Europeans. There are no Muslim or Indian equivalents of this. You had recently a Texan in his garage figuring out how Muslims made Damascus blades (also known as blades from Hind, or blades of India) that were the renowned swords of the elite Ottoman Janissaries.

These swords were not replicable until this buba figured it out. No one, for centuries could build them anymore. They would glow lightly in the dark and later research found nanotube construction. Known famously to cut through a falling silk scarf. And very likely a concept that gave rise to the Star Wars light saber.

When you don't have that level of a culture of metallurgy, or even a remote culture of metallurgy (you'll almost never find a desi graduate doing his own metal works and having fun with it), you really don't have a competitive basis for metallurgical innovation. I would wager, you won't find a Masters degree holder actually playing around with his trade.

You see, most of our graduates are trained from a young age to hate education but treat it as a social status. They earn degrees, often by rote learning, not because knowledge excites them but because their families and society expects them to get these degrees. These paper degrees really have little to no use for actually achieving technological advantage.

If you look further, you'd find "Lord" Macauley's Minute on Indian Education, and some underpinnings on why our whole educational epistemology is messed up, which ultimately nips us intellectually from the bud.

Anyways, my apologies for branching out.
and ironically its not limited to steel it’s everywhere
the problem is youngsters r not given the flames in there bellies by elders to jump on the other side.
allama iqbal died crying and writing this very concept
his eagle portry is all about doing something extra ordinary
and no half measures
 
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I guess the maximum calibre we use along LC is 130mm. Which was used today hence the casualties in Kupwara occured pretty deep.

If I m not wrong 155mm M-198s are also used when India take matters to 155mm caliber on LOC.

Yes but India has introduced Dhanush to the theater now, so Pakistan will need to respond in kind or via some other way. I'd prefer guided projectiles at their FSBs for a one-time lesson.

What caliber it has and what it adds over Bofors they use??
 
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Hon Joe Shearer,

What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.

As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.

Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.

I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.

I have to take exception to this thinking of India as a historical nation, we apportion historical ownership of South Asian history to the modern state of India too readily.

Whilst I have no issue with the fact that India has a bigger industrial base, after all, it did inherit British India's industrial capacity, on which, it built with foreign help from the Europeans and the Soviets.

A sword or steel made at some point in history was made by the empire or Kingdom of that time, not by India, as represented in the form of the modern nation-state of India. India was a region, not a country, only post 1947 India is a country. it is an important differentiation that needs to be kept alive in this identity conscious world in which we live.
 
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8cdcd42c5498201db7fc1e.jpg

PCL-181 is SH15
PCL-181 brings great improvement for PLA artillery troops
Source
http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2020-05/07/content_9808544.htm
Editor
Wang Xinjuan
Time
2020-05-07 10:31:47

The domestically developed PCL-181155mm wheeled vehicle-mounted howitzers are commissioned to an army brigade under the PLA Eastern Theater Command. (Photo/Courtesy of Weibo @ CNR guofangshikong) Recently, it has been widely reported that China's new generation of 155mm vehicle-mounted howitzers, the PCL-181, have been delivered to troops of a brigade under the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Eastern Theater Command in batches. This reveals both the renewal of the main equipment, and even the overall improvement of the authorization system, tactical thinking, and equipment system of the PLA Army artillery troops.
Faster in response
The PCL-181 currently delivered to the PLA Army artillery troops will be mainly used to replace the active PL-66 152-mm towed gun-howitzers and a small part of the remaining Type 59-1 130-mm towed cannons. Compared with the latter two, the PCL-181 features "fastness" as its most prominent technical advantage --- to be specific, its "fastness" in response, marching, and aiming.
First, its response is fast. Within three minutes, the PL-66 152-mm towed gun-howitzer can only complete the transition from marching state to combat state; while thanks to its integrated wheeled chassis and highly automated electromechanical hydraulic servo system, the PCL-181 can realize the whole process from parking to combat state, then to launching six projectiles, and finally to withdrawing and transferring. This means a qualitative leap for the tactics of the PLA Army artillery troops.
Second, its marching is fast. With the integration of wheeled chassis and artillery, the PCL-181 can reach the maximum design speed in marching, with no need to worry about the rollover accident caused by overspeed, which is hardly possible for the PL-66 152-mm towed gun-howitzer.
Third, its aiming is fast. The PCL-181 is equipped with the world-leading automatic fire control system (AFCS). Following the input of the target azimuth data, the vehicle-mounted fire control computer can automatically settle the shooting elements and automatically adjust the azimuth and height of the artillery. However, such element adjustments of the PL-66 rely entirely on manual operation.
Lighter and smaller
At present, the PLA Army artillery troops have already been equipped with the PLZ-05 155mm self-propelled howitzers. Why is the PCL-181 still needed?


The full combat weight of the PCL-181 vehicle-mounted howitzer is 25 tons, only about half compared with the PLZ-05 155mm self-propelled howitzer.(Photo/Courtesy of Weibo @ CNR guofangshikong) The PCL-181 has a full combat weight of 25 tons, only about half compared with the PLZ-05. Since there are certain restrictions on the total weight of vehicles on many bridges and highways, the PCL-181 is superior to such heavy-duty tracked vehicles as the PLZ-05 in terms of mobility. In addition, with a smaller overall size, the PCL-181 has no worries about "overrun"(the overall height exceeds 3.6 meters or overall width exceeds the train cabin) when transported by rail, and can get through almost all railway sections to reach a freight station nearest to the destination.
Besides, the PCL-181 weighs only 25 tons, which is just within the cargo capacity of China's Y-9 tactical transport aircraft. Each Y-9 tactical transport aircraft can carry one PCL-181, and as long as there are a sufficient number of transport aircraft groups, the rapid deployment of the organically assigned artillery troops as a whole within nearly a thousand kilometers can be realized. This will undoubtedly greatly improve the rapid reaction capability of the PLA Army.
In addition, the PCL-181 is more cost-effective with a lower price, so the procurement cost can be reduced to a considerable extent while ensuring equivalent firepower. Under the premise of controlling the procurement cost, it is possible to completely replace the old towed artilleries such as the Type 59-1 the PL-66, which are now active in quantity. In this way, the situation in which a variety of large-caliber artillery coexist in the equipment system of the PLA Army artillery units will be thoroughly changed: artillery of 130 mm and 152 mm calibers are to be completely eliminated, only with that of 122 mm and 155 mm calibers retained.
More flexible

The PCL-181 vehicle-mounted howitzer is equipped with the military high-mobility truck chassis, which make it good at long-distance mobility on road. It was reported that the service members of an Army brigade under the Eastern Theater Command just drove the PCL-181 to their camp after unloading at the freight station. However, when it came to receiving the PLZ-05 155mm self-propelled howitzers in the past, they had to carry them back with heavy-duty wheeled trailers.
According to statistics, the total mileage of China's expressway network has exceeded 100,000 kilometers at present. Therefore, the PCL-181 can quickly reach designated areas by using its wheeled chassis of long-distance rapid maneuverability in North China, East China, and South China where the expressway network is relatively dense. In addition, the PCL-181 is also superior to the PLZ-05 in terms of maneuverability and operational flexibility in mountainous areas, deserts, Gobi deserts, and plateaus.
 
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Do we have turkish PANTER 155MM HOWITZER. WIKI SAYS WE PURCHASED IT IN 2008 09
 
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I have to take exception to this thinking of India as a historical nation, we apportion historical ownership of South Asian history to the modern state of India too readily.

Whilst I have no issue with the fact that India has a bigger industrial base, after all, it did inherit British India's industrial capacity, on which, it built with foreign help from the Europeans and the Soviets.

A sword or steel made at some point in history was made by the empire or Kingdom of that time, not by India, as represented in the form of the modern nation-state of India. India was a region, not a country, only post 1947 India is a country. it is an important differentiation that needs to be kept alive in this identity conscious world in which we live.


Honorable Sir,

It is a historical fact that iron/steel manufacture in the Indian subcontinent is very old. There would be hardly anyone visiting Delhi, a Muslim in particular, who has not gone to see the Qutub Minar. Right next to it is the ‘Asoka ki lat’ or the iron pillar of Asoka. This means that India blacksmiths were making Iron pillar during the 3rd century B.C.

You can buy Shahnameh Firdousi from large book shops or even try to read it online; you will surely come across mention of Indian Swords may times; clearly indicating that Indian armament was known in Persia during 10th Century AD. By the way, by Hindustan Firdausi, means the North-Western subcontinent as he mentions 'Qanauj' as the seat of the Indian King.

Incidentally, the first ordinance factory in Indian was established in 1712 when the Dutch Ostend Company established a Gun Powder factory in 1712 at Ichhapur, West Bengal. Currently, there are 41 ordinance factories in India. (https://ofb.gov.in/ )

This is no doubt true that present-day India is different from old Hindustan. Nevertheless, Iron ore mines of ancient times happen to be in the regions that are now part of modern India.
 
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Honorable Sir,

It is a historical fact that iron/steel manufacture in the Indian subcontinent is very old. There would be hardly anyone visiting Delhi, a Muslim in particular, who has not gone to see the Qutub Minar. Right next to it is the ‘Asoka ki lat’ or the iron pillar of Asoka. This means that India blacksmiths were making Iron pillar during the 3rd century B.C.

You can buy Shahnameh Firdousi from large book shops or even try to read it online; you will surely come across mention of Indian Swords may times; clearly indicating that Indian armament was known in Persia during 10th Century AD. By the way, by Hindustan Firdausi, means North-Western subcontinent as he mentions 'Qanauj' as the seat of the Indian King.

Incidentally, the first ordinance factory in Indian was established in 1712 when the Dutch Ostend Compo nay established a Gun Powder factory in 1712 at Ichhapur, West Bengal. Currently, there are 41 ordinance factories in India. (https://ofb.gov.in/ )

This is no doubt true that present-day India is different from old Hindustan. Nevertheless, Iron ore mines of ancient times happen to be in the regions that are now part of modern India.

It is heartening to know you are well-read, probably more than myself on this particular topic. but, if you read my reply, I never disputed your facts, in fact, I added to them and provided a reason why it is so. My contention was that your original argument was pitting India in comparison to Pakistan and you had used ancient history to justify your answers.

My point was and is that historical India and modern India are two different entities and how they are to be used to prove a given point must be done with some considerations. You had blanketly given modern India a historical linkage that was not appropriate in your argument.

It is fair to say India has a history of metallurgy going back into its ancient past, but you cannot use that point when comparing it to Pakistan, because Pakistan also has a rich history in metallurgy going back into its own ancient past. The modern state of India is more advance than the modern state of Pakistan because it had inherited a more advanced industrial base at independence, whereas Pakistan did not have an industrial base at all at independence, nothing, zero, zilch, and other countries were very willing to help India far more than Pakistan with new technologies. This interpretation I think is fair and accurate.
 
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Indian steel and Indian swords were very famous with Arabs even in times of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Hind was an exotic place for them. Still Hind/Pak is kinda exotic for Arabs. That's why some women were called Hind adding to their allure etc.
Hon Joe Shearer,

What you say about the Indian steel industry is correct. After China, India & Japan are the largest steel producer in the world with the output 0f 105-million tons of steel in 2018.

As a student of history, I am aware that canons were manufactured in India during Akbar the Great era. Additionally, I just finished reading an abridged version of Shahnameh Firdousi, completed towards the end of the 10th Century, wherein swords made of Indian steel are mentioned in several places.

Head of the Institute of Chemical Technology of Punjab University during the late ’50s/early ’60s was Dr. Niaz Ahmed. He was very proud of the fact that he had worked in the Jamshedpur Tata steel plant ( in operation since 1912) during the 1940s’. On the other hand, Steel Industry in Pakistan is relatively new. Pakistan Steel was completed in January 1985.

I also remember reading in one of the English newspapers during the 1965 wartime that Indians had 6 Ordinance factories whereas Pakistan had only one at Wah. It would, therefore, be impossible to deny the fact that India is way ahead of Pakistan in terms of military hardware production capability.
 
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Indian steel and Indian swords were very famous with Arabs even in times of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Hind was an exotic place for them. Still Hind/Pak is kinda exotic for Arabs. That's why some women were called Hind adding to their allure etc.

One of my Emirati colleagues had a daughter named Hind, on inquiry he told me it meant someone owning 100 camels (signifying wealth in old times). However, you could be right as I came across the word 'Muhannad' meaning a sword made in India; thus the name Hind could be related to Hind (India in Arabic).

There are also families with the surname 'Al'Hindi'. This refers to those who had been trading with India. One must not forget that trade relations between the subcontinent & Arabian Peninsula are very old. According to legends, the Cheramaan Juma Mosque in Kerala is said to have been built around 630 AD implying during Holy Prophet (PBUH) lifetime! Perhaps a member from Kerala could shed more light on it.
 
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FYI the reason Damascus blades, those used by the elite Ottomans, were called blades of Hind, was because the peculiar iron ore (which had a certain impurity that made them extra special) were mined in the Subcontinent and exported - for a long time perhaps hundreds of years. They then went through a special (proprietary) process to turn them into the famous Damascus blades.

When those iron ore mines eventually dried up, the technology was lost due to disuse (and other deeper sociological, economic, political and fundamentally theological factors).
 
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