‘Pakistan’s armed forces far better today than ’65, ’71’

[coffee_cup]

lol, what has happened to the countries mentioned in you list?

Just wanted to present other way of looking at how things have changed since 1971 for worse for many unlucky countries around the world. It is not a given thing that with time everyone will have better weaponary etc.

Only a few countries were able to show iron resolve to face a massive existential enemy and despite all odds could bring their defences to a very respectable level.

Pakistan's success is by no means an ordinary one!

 

[Meengla]

I don't want this to turn into yet another 1965 war narrative. But here is my brief understanding of that war, especially after reading (from the NY Times paid archives) from 7th Sept. till the end of the war: The Indian attack through the international border was judged as a "classic" diversionary move to relieve the pressure in Indian-held Kashmir. It didn't seem like India was much interested in escalation and neither was Pakistan. But for weeks there WERE a lot of Indian moves into W. Pakistan to go deep but they met fierce resistance--indeed, Pakistani forces managed something well beyond the war-capabilities. That CAN'T be taken away.

Also, Ayub Khan is on record to have said that Indian forces were well-equipped--better than they were in 1962. Ayub blamed the West for the advanced Indian weaponry. Ayub said that India used the China bogeyman to acquire sophisticated weapons between 1962-65, only to use them against Pakistan. So, while our Indian PDF guests may be partially correct that Pakistan had qualitative advantage I think the Indian weaponry was not that bad--and neither was Indian war "preparedness" especially in light of 1962.

My personal opinion is that Pakistanis are justified to claim a "victory" in light of the odds--a purely military victory, and not a political or strategic victory. The Indian advancement for weeks was going to take a life of its own to "degrade" or even destroy the Pakistani state and yet that was not achieved.

As for 1971--it was essentially a victory for the Bangladeshi nationalists--as our BD friend rightly says above. India came in very late when the war was essentially already lost. Other than the humiliation of surrender--in a war of extremely heavy odds--Pakistanis don't cry over the loss of E. Pakistan. In fact, the loss of E. Pakistan was almost taken with a stride. Remember that: Even General McArthur had to run away with his tail between his legs at the height of American power in the Korean War.

On topic: Indeed, the missile capabilities of Pakistan are very lethal for India (and of course vice versa). Combine that with the upgraded air defense systems of Pakistan, I don't think, in a war on defensive footing, India can 'win' without destroying India itself. And I am not going to bother mention the nukes--they should never be used or even discussed. Only countries like Uncle Sam, Russia, and China can attack Pakistan and be "victorious" as things stand now.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Compare to 1971, today's Afghan forces are a joke
Compare to 1971, today's Iraq is destroyed
Compare to 1971, today's Yogoslavia (if we count all new countries together) has no power projection abilities
Compare to 1971, how many countries have rolled back their nuclear programs?

So as much as your Indian ego would like to belittle Pakistan's achievement in defence, it is something that we take pride in.

That despite all those sanctions and worst of Indian cross-border terrorism in Pakistan, we have thrived and made very significant progress!

Not to mention Germany. The most scientifically and technologically advanced nation on earth. It's military is significantly weaker than what it was in the 80s.

Think what the OP meant was in relative terms. Compared to our enemies who had a significant advantage over us in the 1950s-1990s, this gap has narrowed. This is evident by the fact that we have not been attacked by any enemies since 1971, 44 years. This fact can be seen in events since after 1998. Despite whatever anyone says or thinks, Pakistan is way more advanced in conventional and strategic weapons capability than it publicly portrays. This was the case in May 1998 when the majority of the world especially india were 100% certain that Pakistan possessed 0 nuclear weapons capability. Many leading indian scientists, military personnel and other so called indian experts vehemently claimed this. They got the shock of their lives on May the 28th 1998. That's why I always find it hard to believe anything indians say or claim. Most indians are prone to lying, half truths or saying things which fit their beliefs. Some indians claim that india is more advanced than the americans. Pakistan actually down plays all of it's military capabilities (except for using nukes against the indians) as to avoid sanctions and other passive punitive measures by the West.

but overall Pakistan have lost a lot of its reputation.At 65 USA used to give Pakistan unconditional support against India and China too was in favor of Pak and lot of world country respected Pakistan but not now

Other people's respect and opinions about us mean nothing to us members of the Pakistani race. We do not seek their approval or validation for our existence. We have a way of life that only we understand. An indian can never understand this.

 

[Meengla]

but overall Pakistan have lost a lot of its reputation.At 65 USA used to give Pakistan unconditional support against India and China too was in favor of Pak and lot of world country respected Pakistan but not now

No, 1965 or even 1971 didn't lead to Pakistan's loss of international 'image'.

I believe Pakistan's image started to suffer around approximately 1988-89--when Pakistan refused to play ball with Uncle Sam WRT to political solutions in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan wanted to gain a lot from the Soviet quagmire while Uncle Sam couldn't care less by then. I also believe Pakistan had "served" its purpose by then for Uncle Sam. The Pressler Amendment came swiftly! Even though the West's 'benevolent dictator' Zia ul Haq was gone, and "democracy" had returned to Pakistan (Benazir's rise in late 1988), Pakistan was of not much consequence.

By some time in the 90s, Pakistan was already being considered as a 'state sponsor of terrorism'; long before 9/11. After 9/11, we all know how the 'image' has been tarnished.

In today's world, Uncle Sam's media can make the Vatican a den of child molesters and Somalia to be a victim of Russian terrorism IF the media chooses to! The media in America--even the NY Times--essentially toe the official policy lines. Outliers like Huffington Post simply can't match the officially followed lines. Even the NPR toes that line.

 

[Asian.Century]

It is a fact that India lost all wars to seven times smaller nation Pakistan, tell me when has India, which was divided so many times is actually the same India before it was in 1947 ?? tell me did Bangladesh became same as before 1947 ??? what r the gains of 1947/48 kashmir war, when Pakistan took half of kashmir & NA? what did India achieved in 1965? according to ur Indian General he wanted to have bear and lunch in Lahore?? where is Lahore since 1965 ? Does Bengalis want to be part of India ??? Bengalis hate you Indians to the core ? What was that defeat, that u supported Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and later Pakistan, but yet got defeated badly....or those objectives of India that it wanted a tamil Hindu rule in Srilanka, but with help of Pakistan, Srilankans defeated India and killed the LTTE Hindu leader. 1999 Kargil war, who owns the mountain peaks and valleys till today ? Has India got back A total of around 140 Indian Army posts in Kargil area of J&K which were taken by the Pakistan Army?

Come on just because throughout 1000 year history muslims or Pakistanis rule, they do not talk or chest thumb to much about victories and wars, doesn't mean lies become true and facts becomes lies now, and history is reversed.

To defeat Pakistan, Pakistan must cease to exist, Pakistan Army, Industrial, & Economic Capacity must be finished, Pakistan's Nuclear, Missile, Airforce, Naval power completely finished like Iraq, Libya etc...any capacity to resist by Pakistanis must end....Indians know they cannot defeat Pakistanis seven times smaller nation, Indians know, Pakistan cannot be undone, Pakistan is here to stay...it cannot be erased..

it was India that was broken, divided and dismantled many times since 1947 !!!

 

[WaLeEdK2]

It is a fact that India lost all wars to seven times smaller nation Pakistan, tell me when has India, which was divided so many times is actually the same India before it was in 1947 ?? tell me did Bangladesh became same as before 1947 ??? what r the gains of 1947/48 kashmir war, when Pakistan took half of kashmir & NA? what did India achieved in 1965? according to ur Indian General he wanted to have bear and lunch in Lahore?? where is Lahore since 1965 ? Does Bengalis want to be part of India ??? Bengalis hate you Indians to the core ? What was that defeat, that u supported Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and later Pakistan, but yet got defeated badly....or those objectives of India that it wanted a tamil Hindu rule in Srilanka, but with help of Pakistan, Srilankans defeated India and killed the LTTE Hindu leader. 1999 Kargil war, who owns the mountain peaks and valleys till today ? Has India got back A total of around 140 Indian Army posts in Kargil area of J&K which were taken by the Pakistan Army?

Come on just because throughout 1000 year history muslims or Pakistanis rule, they do not talk or chest thumb to much about victories and wars, doesn't mean lies become true and facts becomes lies now, and history is reversed.

To defeat Pakistan, Pakistan must cease to exist, Pakistan Army, Industrial, & Economic Capacity must be finished, Pakistan's Nuclear, Missile, Airforce, Naval power completely finished like Iraq, Libya etc...any capacity to resist by Pakistanis must end....Indians know they cannot defeat Pakistanis seven times smaller nation, Indians know, Pakistan cannot be undone, Pakistan is here to stay...it cannot be erased..

it was India that was broken, divided and dismantled many times since 1947 !!!

Regarding the Kargil issue they claim they got all their posts back because Pakistan agreed to withdraw. Can you give further details on this.

 

[deepak.chauhan2312]

Other people's respect and opinions about us mean nothing to us members of the Pakistani race. We do not seek their approval or validation for our existence. We have a way of life that only we understand. An indian can never understand this.

No I think you need respect in international community.This is not a time when country can grow by itself this is globalization age.Image is very Important.You can not deny the fact that if you country is having bad Image Internationally you can not grow.This is happening in Pakistan.I as an Indian can not understand it you are right about that as we put political agenda and economic agenda as far as possible so we can grow and we can stick to our other agendas too.May be you will call me Hindu banya metality(btw I am rajput) but Economics is the backbone.

Come on just because throughout 1000 year history muslims or Pakistanis rule, they do not talk or chest thumb to much about victories and wars, doesn't mean lies become true and facts becomes lies now, and history is reversed.

Pakistani rule when?

 

[xperia]

Pakistani armed forces may be better equipped now then they were in 65 but the morale, motivation have gone down a lot. we as a nation have become more and more materialistic and greedy in every walk of life and armed forces are no exception to it. I am sure same is true for the other side of the border

 

[krakatoa]

Umm, if it wasn't won by Pakistan, who won it? India? after losing and bargaing real estate on both sides, i am not sure what garbage you were taught about 1965.

Just like Indians claim all wars were won by India, when in 1948, Pakistan marched and captured a good chunk of Kashmir.......an inch of which India still hasn't been able to take back since.

Just like Indians claim all wars were won by India, when in 1948, Pakistan marched and captured a good chunk of Kashmir.......an inch of which India still hasn't been able to take back since.

how can i make is my signature? I am not much into profile things

 

[Assange]

You should also note that pakistan was on the defence with our aims to not let sialkot, lahore and kasur fall into indian hands and we succeeded in that.

I don't know how long we are going to about something which happened 50 years ago...with just historical facts....what happened has happened it is better to move forward and for future.....

Just like Indians claim all wars were won by India, when in 1948, Pakistan marched and captured a good chunk of Kashmir.......an inch of which India still hasn't been able to take back since.

Boss I think you are ill informed about the history...Please read before commenting this because this post might fuel lots of trolls here....

Please don't forget Pakistan's so called army was pushed back from Srinagar and Uri sector which was in their stronghold...For more information please google and read it...

Alongwith India given back Haji pir pass to Pakistan .

Yea Pakistan did win battles...but in the end you should see who conquered sizable territory ....

 

[Manindra]

I don't want this to turn into yet another 1965 war narrative. But here is my brief understanding of that war, especially after reading (from the NY Times paid archives) from 7th Sept. till the end of the war: The Indian attack through the international border was judged as a "classic" diversionary move to relieve the pressure in Indian-held Kashmir. It didn't seem like India was much interested in escalation and neither was Pakistan. But for weeks there WERE a lot of Indian moves into W. Pakistan to go deep but they met fierce resistance--indeed, Pakistani forces managed something well beyond the war-capabilities. That CAN'T be taken away.

Also, Ayub Khan is on record to have said that Indian forces were well-equipped--better than they were in 1962. Ayub blamed the West for the advanced Indian weaponry. Ayub said that India used the China bogeyman to acquire sophisticated weapons between 1962-65, only to use them against Pakistan. So, while our Indian PDF guests may be partially correct that Pakistan had qualitative advantage I think the Indian weaponry was not that bad--and neither was Indian war "preparedness" especially in light of 1962.

As we had got serious defeat in 1962, how can we manage to equip such large army & train them just in 2.5 years ?
Even Pakistan Army bring bad name Patton due to lack of sufficient training as it deployed immediately after purchase.
I don't know about Pakistan Army but Indian Army was not prepared for war.
Ayub Khan was good administrator but suck big time in military & strategic affairs (He shown his timidity in WW2 also).
After successful attack IA planned to go deep but timidity of Major General Niranjan Prasad timidity bring disgrace to Indian Army.
After Lt. General Harbaksh singh takes command IA rebound again in war theatre.
In Pakistani side story is more serious as Ayub change commander in mid battle when PA caught IA through throat in Akhnoor.

My personal opinion is that Pakistanis are justified to claim a "victory" in light of the odds--a purely military victory, and not a political or strategic victory. The Indian advancement for weeks was going to take a life of its own to "degrade" or even destroy the Pakistani state and yet that was not achieved.

How can PA claim victory when inititor of this war was PA themself to add a territory & in the end fight to save their own territory. PA was prepared & other side IA was recovering from 1962 defeat, poor economic condition of country barring quick upgradation etc.
In commanding level, both sides of commanders did as much errors that this war should be called 'Comedy of Errors'

As for 1971--it was essentially a victory for the Bangladeshi nationalists--as our BD friend rightly says above. India came in very late when the war was essentially already lost. Other than the humiliation of surrender--in a war of extremely heavy odds--Pakistanis don't cry over the loss of E. Pakistan. In fact, the loss of E. Pakistan was almost taken with a stride. Remember that: Even General McArthur had to run away with his tail between his legs at the height of American power in the Korean War.

With nearly 50,000 strong army in eastern sector (their are enough ammunition & other supplies to fought war long) they can give IA bloody nose & Tiger Niazi was capable commander.
But when he saw that General Yahya khan was making merry with wine & women then what option he had left.
The night before fall of Decca Yahya was doing party with Queen of melody Noor Jahan.

Bangla Desh would never independent if India didn't intervene as they would be crushed by PA.

On topic: Indeed, the missile capabilities of Pakistan are very lethal for India (and of course vice versa). Combine that with the upgraded air defense systems of Pakistan, I don't think, in a war on defensive footing, India can 'win' without destroying India itself. And I am not going to bother mention the nukes--they should never be used or even discussed. Only countries like Uncle Sam, Russia, and China can attack Pakistan and be "victorious" as things stand now.

Thats why none of side want to full scale war like old days instead prefers media, economic, terrorism, narcotics war or short skirmish.

 

[vsdave2302]

I belive that all air forces in the world are better than 65 and 71 today. What is so special?

 

[Assange]

Dont worry mate and kindly mind your own business. you along with other few indians have nothing to do with this. when there is a discussion sure participate but no need reply when you have not been asked anything

Boss I think you are in a wrong place this is a forum where everyone can comment on others comment....I think you have not fully understood what this PDF forum means....By the way I have been part of this PDF forum for the past 5 years I just read this forum unless otherwise it is needed I don't comment...My message count is a testament of that....

And again, when confronted with facts please contradict it with facts don't be a troll....

 

[krakatoa]

Boss I think you are in a wrong place this is a forum where everyone can comment on others comment....I think you have not fully understood what this PDF forum means....By the way I have been part of this PDF forum for the past 5 years I just read this forum unless otherwise it is needed I don't comment...My message count is a testament of that....

And again, when confronted with facts please contradict it with facts don't be a troll....

I have been reader of this website since mumbai attack happened. There barely is a day when I dont visit and see whats happening. I always love to learn but the quality of this website has gone so low just because of the attitude of you guys. i dont like to misbehave and i try my best not to say what makes other feel bad and here it has become so difficult to do. sarcasm all around. If i had to troll am sure there were over a million opportunities to do that since i have been observing this website. if i post my ideas here sure go ahead and discuss but see my post again. i dont want to discuss anything. I asked how to do one thing and didnt start any discussion on what was written. i hate to make others feel bad and in discussions here thats pretty impossible. words cut sharper than sword and in debates we have lost a lot of respect for other nations. Islam does not teach us to talk like how we are forced to talk here because of sarcasm.

Pissed off much at the facts? You said India invaded Kashmir. I proved you wrong. So you're running like a hen in a pigsty trying to rationalise your falsehoods!

How can you prove me wrong when i didnt even discuss anything?

 

[Assange]

I have been reader of this website since mumbai attack happened. There barely is a day when I dont visit and see whats happening. I always love to learn but the quality of this website has gone so low just because of the attitude of you guys. i dont like to misbehave and i try my best not to say what makes other feel bad and here it has become so difficult to do. sarcasm all around. If i had to troll am sure there were over a million opportunities to do that since i have been observing this website. if i post my ideas here sure go ahead and discuss but see my post again. i dont want to discuss anything. I asked how to do one thing and didnt start any discussion on what was written. i hate to make others feel bad and in discussions here thats pretty impossible. words cut sharper than sword and in debates we have lost a lot of respect for other nations. Islam does not teach us to talk like how we are forced to talk here because of sarcasm.

Wow!!! that's great you have been an avid follower this website great...

By the way, you should read the thread fully so that you can understand what I was asking to a member of this forum about what happened in Kashmir in 1948...I was telling that Pakistan's forces were forced back from Srinagar and Uri sector by the then Indian Army...And you are quoting that and tell me to mind my own business...I don't know what you saw wrong in my post...

I personally feel that you are trying to involve me in a verbal altercation here with you and eventually I will get banned from this website....

And last point...I am happy that you are concerned about the quality of the post done this forum Admin of this forum has taken enough measures to curtail it and if there was any problem with my post he would have definitely intimated me about it...So up to now I have not received any such message from him...So I would kindly ask you to refrain from making such a comment on others to mind their own businesses