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Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

Hi,

Iaf maynot have all that equipment which is being written down about. Right now----the next 60 to 90 days are very crucial in india's economy---the fallout of india's enron scandal will take effect---secondly----india is possibly going to lose about 10 million jobs by the end of this year and possibly 30 millions plus plus in the next two to three years----india's economy maynot be strong enough to make all those purchases that they want to.

Pakistan has all their major purchase in the pipeline---some are already built and the others are on their way----india has yet to decide on quite a few of them---.

For pakistan----by the middle of next year---the true posture of the PAF will be visible to the naked eye.
 
Hi,

Iaf maynot have all that equipment which is being written down about. Right now----the next 60 to 90 days are very crucial in india's economy---the fallout of india's enron scandal will take effect---secondly----india is possibly going to lose about 10 million jobs by the end of this year and possibly 30 millions plus plus in the next two to three years----india's economy maynot be strong enough to make all those purchases that they want to.
Pakistan has all their major purchase in the pipeline---some are already built and the others are on their way----india has yet to decide on quite a few of them---.

For pakistan----by the middle of next year---the true posture of the PAF will be visible to the naked eye.

MastanKhan, you are a ThinkTank sir. So I expected a more balanced opinion above. I would like to mention a few points in response to your statements:
1> India has a number of profitable well-managed companies. The Birlas, Tatas, Reliance, Bajaj, Godrej all have been in business for decades, and in a couple of cases a century or more. There are profitable giant public sector companies like ONGC, BHEL, RCF. They are well-capitalized and have always been. A single tainted software company fudging its books by a billion dollars is just a hiccup for a country with a trillion dollar GDP. And what is the basis of your estimates of 10-30 million job losses? Some factual resources would help.

2> National security issues are #1 priority for any country. Period. If India feels current threat environment requires urgent decisions, she will take those decisions without delays.

3> You question whether India's economy is "strong enough" for defence purchases. Defence purchases typically involve foreign exchange outflows. India's foreign exchange reserves as of Jan 2,2009 are USD 255 BILLION.
Gold pushes up India's forex reserves
So as you can see, India can certainly afford to spend a few billionto defend herself, and then some more if needed. ;)
 
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Neo how much time will it take PAF to integrate Erieye into their infrastructure. The reason i ask this is because IAF has got the phalcon and they may have started to work for its integration while we are still waiting for the delivery.

This question can be best answered by Blain, Sir Murad or X_men but according to my knowledge it will take 2-3 months to integrate them.
 
MastanKhan, you are a ThinkTank sir. So I expected a more balanced opinion above. I would like to mention a few points in response to your statements:
1> India has a number of profitable well-managed companies. The Birlas, Tatas, Reliance, Bajaj, Godrej all have been in business for decades, and in a couple of cases a century or more. There are profitable giant public sector companies like ONGC, BHEL, RCF. They are well-capitalized and have always been. A single tainted software company fudging its books by a billion dollars is just a hiccup for a country with a trillion dollar GDP. And what is the basis of your estimates of 10-30 million job losses? Some factual resources would help.

2> National security issues are #1 priority for any country. Period. If India feels current threat environment requires urgent decisions, she will take those decisions without delays.

3> You question whether India's economy is "strong enough" for defence purchases. Defence purchases typically involve foreign exchange outflows. India's foreign exchange reserves as of Jan 2,2009 are USD 255 BILLION.
Gold pushes up India's forex reserves
So as you can see, India can certainly afford to spend a few billionto defend herself, and then some more if needed. ;)

The question mark regarding Indian defense purchases is the efficiency of its defense establishment and bureaucracy. Just one example to quote: India started process to acquire 126 fighters in perhaps 2001 and is still evaluating the tenders. Pakistan started evaluating the fighter to induct in service other than F-16 in around the same time and have already finalized FC-20 and the plane is expected to enter service by 2010.

As far as reserves are concerned the price of gold has gone down in recent months rather than going up so it is not a very good indicator of calculating a countries foreign reserves. What if gold plunges like the oil than what?

As far as job losses are concerned this should answer that:

Big-ticket job losses imminent in India?- Opinion-The Economic Times

DNA: India: Job losses: You ain't seen nothing yet

Indian exporters expect 10m job cuts
 
Redbaron,

All the companies that failed in the u s of a were very well respected and solid companies in the country in the begining of last year---till they met their sad demise.

Steel industry is in shambles all over the world---no sooner then later, india is going to feel the crunch. Nissan has reduced its production goal of manufacturing vehicles from 400k to 200 k in their upcoming assembly plant. That goal maybe further reduced. The steel industry is going to feel the pinch pretty soon if it already had not. The Mittals have lost a pretty penny on that.

It is just a matter of time----india lives in this same planet as does china and america and europe and pakistan----if it dependends more on the u s of a and europe for its welbeing--guess what---it will feel the pain rather sooner than later. It is coming---no doubt about it---.

Oh by the way---TATAS are going to lose their shirt on Jaguar and land rover----what a poor timing to buy those piece of sh-it english cars and suv's company. It maybe chump change----but it is the psychological effect on the rest of the industry that creates the snowball effect.

The reserves are in proportion to the size of the country's economy / population---doesn't mean that india can spend at free will. Knowing india's past procurement habbits----defence purchases have never been a priority---when india was buying from russia---at least they could focus on either the MIG or the SU---and even then---it took awhile to make the decision----now there are 5 plus variants in the MRCA purchase---.

Oh----india would be spending a tidy bit of money in upgrading their security forces equipment for their cities----so it is not at all a rosy picture for india---.

Now this is my view and observation by keeping in mind the world economic picture which is extremely gloomy. Do any pakistani members feel or see anything wrong with this analysis.
 
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The question mark regarding Indian defense purchases is the efficiency of its defense establishment and bureaucracy. Just one example to quote: India started process to acquire 126 fighters in perhaps 2001 and is still evaluating the tenders. Pakistan started evaluating the fighter to induct in service other than F-16 in around the same time and have already finalized FC-20 and the plane is expected to enter service by 2010.

As far as reserves are concerned the price of gold has gone down in recent months rather than going up so it is not a very good indicator of calculating a countries foreign reserves. What if gold plunges like the oil than what?

As far as job losses are concerned this should answer that:

Big-ticket job losses imminent in India?- Opinion-The Economic Times

DNA: India: Job losses: You ain't seen nothing yet

Indian exporters expect 10m job cuts

Thanks Ejaz. Your point about past delays is well taken. But the enhanced threat perception recently, and especially after Mumbai attacks is bound to speed up matters related to defence procurement. The Phalcon arriving earlier than scheduled could be a coincidence, could be not - I don't know. But with the recent unstability in the region finally spilling over to Indian shores, GoI will be hard-pressed to move faster on a number of defence matters including the MRCA bids. This is my opinion, others may feel differently.

Regarding FC-20, I believe PAF was still at the evaluation stage (at least till very recently) as indicated by the below post in the J-10/FC-20 thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-37.html#post218666

My response to MastanKhan was primarily regarding Indian "Enron" and the "affordability" issues, and I stand by my opinion on these.

Regarding exact job losses, no doubt there is a global slump, but governments all over the world are announcing stimulus packages, and GoI is in the process of doing the same. Job-loss projections are less trustworthy than actual jobs lost measured after each quarter is over. So I would take the doomsday predictions with a pinch of salt.

Regarding gold prices, as the previous link I posted indicates, gold reserves are a mere USD 8 Billion out of USD 255 Billion total reserves, so a plunge in gold prices would not impact India's forex reserves significantly. You have to look at the foreign currency asset portion of the forex reserves, which stand at USD 245 Billion.

I don't doubt that we are in the midst of a global recession. The point I'm trying to make here is that India has enough reserves to service current debt payments as well as provide any collateral necessary for additional external financing even in this recessionary environment. Defence is and should be a country's top priority. I would not like delve further into an economics debate in this thread, but would gladly start a new thread on this topic elsewhere if anyone so wishes. Thanks.
 
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J10 have been cleared for purchase by the government. These shall enter PAF service by the designation of FC-20.

As far as foreign currency resreves are concerned these to some extent depend on the exchange rate of Indian Rupee to US dollar. If either of these take a beeting that the figures are bound to change.

One of the case is the reduction of Pakistani foreign currency reserves. In 2008 one of the contributing factor in the fall of our foreign currency reserve was the devaluation of Rupee. When the Rupee was at Rs. 65 to a dollar we had different foreign currency reserve and when it fell to Rs. 85 to a dollar the figure was different.
 
dear senior members and think tanks...can we please come back to the main subject because i know if i start on the issue of "INDIA" this will turn out to be like other indian forums on which i have been banned...so please coming back to the topic i just want to know if for example just to check out their equipment India sends its newly acquired Phalcon to the border near Lahore and tries to jam our radars...knowing the current stand off and the fact that we are not even close to get our EREIYE...can our ground controlled radar the TPS-77...avoid the jamming or not. and besides sir (Mastan Khan) can you please tell me when do we expect to get the chninese AEWs? and i can't resist saying this besides i am not a senior member or a think tank so i am somewhat off the hook...I PRAY that the Indian economy collapses so that the INDIANS come back down to earth their heads are getting too big for their bodies!!
 
Phalcon won't be sent close to Lahore especially in the present scenario. Also they have just received the plane and need to integrate it into their system and familiarize themselves before taking such a risky mission.

The closest it would be to Lahore would be around 200 km.:lol:
 
hi can anyone give me a credible link to the tracking range of Phalcon and how many targets it can track. cuz i want to compare our EREIYE to it...thanx
 
hi can anyone give me a credible link to the tracking range of Phalcon and how many targets it can track. cuz i want to compare our EREIYE to it...thanx

No "credible" link will exist as the figures tend to be restricted information.
Also most of the ranges quoted will be inaccurate anyway.

The listed range for Erieye is 350 Km in dense electronic clutter but like the ranges posted for Phalcon they are only indicative for obvious reasons.
 
one quick question KEYSERSOZE(by the way off the record like the name keysersoze...from usual suspects right??)!! ok ya so my qucik question is does EREIYE having jamming capabilites or is it just a platform that is airborne radar that can sustain sustain electronical jamming...!! thanks...
 
one quick question KEYSERSOZE(by the way off the record like the name keysersoze...from usual suspects right??)!! ok ya so my qucik question is does EREIYE having jamming capabilites or is it just a platform that is airborne radar that can sustain sustain electronical jamming...!! thanks...

Both......

It is a AESA radar which has the capabilities to jam.

5 September 2005
Radar Becomes A Weapon
By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie
Aviation Week & Space Technology

Directed energy takes an unexpected turn and surfaces as a handy antimissile device that can be built into aircraft, ship and ground-based radars

Radar is emerging as one of the key weapons--nearly all of them still shrouded by secrecy--in the Pentagon's growing arsenal of nonexplosive devices.

Knowledge that radar can produce violent effects on electronic systems is not new. More than 20 years ago, bomber aircraft radars were capable of generating enough concentrated noise jamming to burn out the valve amps (tube amplifiers) in fighters attempting an interception. The emergence over the last few years of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, and its ability to provide high average power for appreciable times, makes such electronically destructive devices all the more attractive and effective.

The weapons-effect utility of the AESA will provide a useful adjunct to other "nonkinetic"--not relying on explosives or impact--weapons research being done in the U.S. and in Europe. The intent is to develop an arsenal of weaponry that limits, or perhaps eliminates, collateral damage and unintended casualties, a particular concern with civilians in countries that coalition forces are trying to aid.

Arrays designed for carriage by aircraft appear to be focused on cruise missiles and self-defense against anti-radiation, home-on-jam and air-to-air missiles. The radars seem particularly effective against the latter categories because energy available to focus on the approaching missile increases as an inverse square as distance decreases.

With large ground- or sea-based AESA-type arrays, the targets are to include ballistic missile warheads, supersonic sea-skimming missiles or shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles that threaten airport operations.

Some of the airborne AESA radars, designed for X-band frequencies, use thousands of small transmitters/receivers, each a couple of inches square, that allow the array to conduct many tasks simultaneously. Those include detection of small, even stealthy targets, tracking and communications. Along with the AESA's high average power, there are also bandwidth benefits and the ability to utilize flexible waveforms.

They can also be used for "jamming," a term now encompassing weapons effects on enemy electronics from the right combination of power, waveform, frequency and pulse length. Possible AESA techniques for attacking another radar could include burning through the target radar's antenna side-lobes, filter side-lobes, or other known features of the target system. Radar specialists suggest it is reasonable to suppose this capability is already available to some fielded systems.

The AESA transmitters can also be focused on other targets to deliver bursts of X-band radio frequency energy into the vulnerable electronics of missiles--the current focus--or enemy aircraft and helicopters or computer systems. Under such assault, computers become confused and missiles lose interest in their targets.

MOREOVER, THE AESA radar is related to high-power microwave (HPM) just beginning to emerge as missile defense systems. The primary difference is that AESA radars produce a sustained pulse for microseconds over a limited frequency range to create an effect while HPM produces a one-pico-sec. pulse of much greater power over gigahertz of frequencies, says a long-time Pentagon radar specialist. A laser beam, by comparison, would have to be held on the target for several seconds.

Some industry specialists say such descriptions oversimplify the technology because both AESA radars and HPM can produce a variety of pulse lengths and bandwidths. They contend the only difference between AESA radars and HPM systems are the waveforms and RF power levels. Both systems use the same electronics technologies and those electronics are optimized for the performance needed to achieve the desired radar or HPM effect. That goal is often to confuse or damage enemy electronics.

These capabilities aren't openly discussed. Moreover, those with knowledge of the technology offer many caveats.

"It's not wise to characterize all AESA radars as potential weapons," says an aerospace industry expert in advanced radars. "Most radars are for defensive purposes only." Also, "one does not need an AESA to turn a radar into a weapon. It can be done with other technologies. High power is required, but beyond that, it's mostly a software issue.

"Wide bandwidth is needed in order to find a vulnerable frequency for the target," he says. "Purpose-built HPM systems would be better in this than most AESAs."

THE NEWLY EMERGING "HPM [devices] come in different flavors," says a second industry specialist. "It can make it uncomfortable for a human being to be in the beam by relying on high average power to heat the skin. Another is used to confuse or burn out missile seekers. The level of peak and/or average power depends on the specific technique being used to counter the threat.

"In general, high peak power is not unique to HPM [devices]," he says. "Radars also use high peak power in long-range search modes, and AESA [arrays] are used for both. The discriminators are the waveform properties and techniques, which include power, duty cycle, pulse length, etc., to counter the various threats, not the technology that goes into the AESA itself. AESA [arrays] support HPM, radar, communications and electronic warfare applications. What makes them unique are the properties of the waveforms that are transmitted."

There are AESAs fielded that operate at HF frequencies (re-locatable over the horizon radar) to millimeter waves (communications and other radar applications). The transmitter/receiver (T/R) modules for these devices can range from several feet to less that 1/4-in. square. Moreover, many frequencies beyond Xband can be exploited to produce weapons effects.

AESA radars on fighter aircraft aren't particularly suited to create weapons effects on missiles because of limited antenna size, power and field of view, a senior U.S. Air Force official says. And, while weapons effects from radars are interesting, "There's no requirement yet for the capability," at least on smaller aircraft, he says. The military's primary concern for now is high-resolution radar with moving target and synthetic aperture capabilities.

While it's easier to plug the energy-hungry system into city electrical power grids as ground-based systems or the Navy's next generation of electric-propulsion ships such as DD(X), the capability is also quickly moving into airborne systems.

A weapons capability exists in a handful of F-15Cs modified with the APG-63(V)2 radars for cruise missile defense and the latest production F/A-18E/Fs. It will soon be part of the F/A-22 and B-2 as part of their radar upgrades, and AESA is also to equip the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. HPM is eventually to be part of the Joint Unmanned Combat Air System payload, and the huge 4 X 21-ft. MP-RTIP AESA radar array is to fly on the E-10. An AESA array is also to be carried by the British Astor.

As to weapons effects, the AESA radar offers the best way to generate high, sustained power where countermeasures demand average power, the radar specialist says. However, weapons effects or countermeasures will vary depending on the target's sensitivities. Very high peak power, short duration pulse may be the best method for attacking enemy electronics. In that case, the attack might better and more cheaply be delivered by an HPM weapon. An AESA is best used where it can use its radar function to locate the target and focus its energy. It can then rapidly move to other targets and select how long it wants to dwell on each.

The radar's weapons effect is measured in watts/sq. cm. AESA arrays are more efficient and reliable since their RF and low-noise amplifiers are near the radiators so that very little energy is lost. The beam is produced by ganging the effects of thousands of lower-wattage T/R modules.

There are lots of similarities between ground-based HPM systems and AESA radars including the T/R modules. In fact, ground-based HPM is becoming affordable because the proliferations of AESA radars has driven the price of modules down.

"HPM and AESA radar are not much different," said the radar specialist. However, "HPM is not trying to be a radar. It's much simpler to concentrate the beam into a peak power pulse [since it's not busy detecting, tracking and identifying targets]. The instantaneous power it creates can burn out missile front ends [including focal planes and imagers]."

BY COMPARISON, AESA "radar uses more elaborate wave forms that focus on detection," he says. "They put more sustained energy onto enemy missiles and burn out the low noise amplifiers and receivers in a seeker." Other specialists caution this generalization isn't necessarily always true.

While HPM produces higher peak power, AESA often generates greater average power. That produces different operational and targeting strategies. For example, Raytheon's airport protection system uses infrared sensors to find the target and determine where to focus its beam. It also produces effects at longer range, possibly as much as 100 mi., because it produces powerful pulses of energy. AESA radar has the built-in ability to find and track a target, so it can be held on the target for the necessary additional microseconds needed to create its weapons effect.

Some HPM pulses are designed to be very broadband, covering "many gigahertz" of frequencies, so they are more likely to find any opening or vulnerability in a target, the radar specialist says. AESA radar has a narrower frequency range, but it uses its radar capability to identify a target, search a library for its vulnerable frequencies and then tailor the signal for the specific target.
 
Both......

It is a AESA radar which has the capabilities to jam.

5 September 2005
Radar Becomes A Weapon
By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie
Aviation Week & Space Technology

... but it uses its radar capability to identify a target, search a library for its vulnerable frequencies and then tailor the signal for the specific target.

There is nothing new.

This article is about the capabilities of the platform but where does it say that Pakistan will get the platform with jamming capabilities?
 
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