Pakistan's Afghan Burden

[S.Bukhari]

Fencing the durand line is a good idea, it would solve the taliban problem in Afghanistan. Afghanistan should agree to it and should also demand heads of haqqani nework and quetta shura leaders who are responsible for deaths of thousands of afghan civilians .

Why not it will also teach a great lesson to 5million filthy afghanis who will be kicked out of pakistan and once we fence this we wouldn't allow any afghani without a visa and there would be no terrorism in shape of TTP in pakistan as afghanis are hiding mullah radio and other terrorists.

 

[OrionHunter]

Now, often when you folks blame the ISI, sure enough it may work with India. But with Afghanistan unfortunately for you the background knowledge isn't enough to spin this kind of blame.

Do you know who was in Kabul before the taliban? Do you know why, how and where the taliban were formed? and under what circumstances?

Did you study the nature of their rise to power? Do you know the public response to the taliban at that time? Do you know where and when the ISI became involved and how?

Do you know anything of the state of Afghanistan during the civil war?
Do you know what it is that caused extremists fighting factions like the taliban to rise in Afghanistan in the first place?

Do you know of the ethnic divide, do you know who supported who after the civil war, do you know the tales of tyranny from all rulers?

Once you can answer almost ALL of those questions, you have no right assumptions to pass that sort of an opinion.



You should also realise why this 'strategic depth' crap even came about. Again ask yourself why.

Yes! Most of it!

But the bottom line is that the PA with the ISI are hand in glove with the Afghan Taliban to enable them to form the next government in Kabul so that there is a very pro Pakistan government in place. It all boils down to Pakistan's paranoia of a (non existent) threat of an Indo-Afghan nut cracker!

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yes! Most of it!

But the bottom line is that the PA with the ISI are hand in glove with the Afghan Taliban to enable them to form the next government in Kabul so that there is a very pro Pakistan government in place. It all boils down to Pakistan's paranoia of a (non existent) threat of an Indo-Afghan nut cracker!

First of all, I highly doubt you did, unless you've been involved in deep kind of debate before, there's only one Indian I've come across in all my foruming time who argued with the relevant history and facts, he is on this very forum, but not so active.

Let me sum it up for you briefly. The taliban were an entirely internal creation, resulting from an entire generation of children and young adults who grew up in a war torn nation, it's a tragedy, it really is. Now many factions existed at the times of the soviets, but never did they clash much, they all had their differences, but sometime in 1987 things did boil over a bit, long story short, some factions blamed the some of northern factions of conspiring with the soviets.

Then when the Soviets left, they left a HUGE power vacuum. You had their puppet government trying to stand in it's place, it faced huge problems, it's rule was entirely unsustainable, it's armed forces were wasted by AWOL and desertion. Then came the overthrow and a civil war, the horrors for which are all for us to see. There was a time where in Kabul, parts of the cities, some neighbourhoods, some streets were owned by individual militia leaders, it was utter lawlessness. A lot of ethnic massacres occurred. Down south, the perception of Dostum and Massoud was that of them being murderous devils.

Again long story short, cue the taliban, born out of what people called the 'Kandahar student movement' in 1994, taliban were a reaction to the times, and we had nothing to do with their creation. And compared to the rest, the taliban seemed like angels, people supported them, they bought order in the name of Islam, now the perception is of course different. But the point being, the Afghan taliban had a hugely successful campaign in the months following their creation, they swept through the land iwth great speed, only because of the fact that they did indeed have support.

That is the relevant background knowledge, I've condensed it a whole lot, a HUGE lot. But still, it was facts and history, not just rhetoric.

 

[American Pakistani]

1)Seal the Pak-Afghan border by erecting a wall with 24/7 surveillance. Just buy Wakhan corridor from Afghanistan & then seal the whole damn border.

2-a)Launch massive operation & crush the remaining TTP/BLA/etc terrorists on Pakistani soil brutally with zero tolerance.

2-b)Accept Afghan refugees as Pakistanis & give them citizenship. Educate their kids so that they can pull their stone age parents dark brains towards brightness & become better citizens of Pakistan.

 

[Marshmallow]

Pakistan’s Afghan burden (Farrukh Khan Pitafi)

An oft-repeated question one often comes across is: “What do you expect from the new Afghan government?” And invariably, the same mind- numbingly dull yet honest answer: “Same old blame game, what else!” Some may find this answer rather harsh, but come on, who are we kidding, we all knew this day was to come.

There is an underrated and underreported hostility between the two countries with very deep historical roots. And it has nothing to do with any “cross-border infiltration”. The land that we now call Pakistan once used to endure repeated excesses of marauding hordes of invaders from Afghanistan. For them, the real prize was India’s capital, Delhi, and we were only a sideshow meant for pillage. And this was even before Pakistan’s birth.

When Pakistan was created, there was only one country that voted against its admission into the United Nations. Not India, not any regional or global power. Surprise, surprise: it was Afghanistan. Saad Akbar Babrak, the assassin of the nascent country’s first prime minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, was Afghan by nationality. Many have still not forgotten the issue of greater Pashtunistan that once was pushed forward by the then Afghan government to dismember the newly-formed state. Speaking of cross-border terrorism (a border that the Afghan side does not accept since Pakistan’s inception), it might be of interest to you that in 1950, Pakistan had to suspend the trans-shipment of petroleum to Afghanistan in retaliation for Afghan tribal attacks across the border. The purpose of bringing these archaic facts up is to highlight the nature of hostility that has almost always prevailed on the other side of the Durand Line.

Our Afghan peers never get tired of blaming Pakistan for their suffering. But frankly, Islamabad is not responsible for the stupid decisions of their rulers. In a country that took its modern form after the Soviet Union’s disintegration in the 1950s, we were responsible neither for the creation of the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan, nor its Parcham and Khalq factions that brought Soviet invasion upon them. The rebellions that were used as an excuse for invasion were also staged by Afghan nationals — not any foreigners. Even the Afghan Taliban are, above anything else, a ragtag army of Afghan nationals.

Let us face the truth. No matter how harsh we are on the now defunct Soviet Union, the US or our own country, for intervening in the internal matters of Afghanistan, they all viewed themselves as friends of Afghanistan and stepped in to help at the call of Afghan citizens. But that is what Afghanistan does. It sucks its friends in its conflicts, destroys them and then very conveniently blames them for everything too.

In the 12 years after 9/11 and the subsequent US occupation, Afghanistan has very effectively exported its conflicts to our territory. Of course, there is no point in denying Islamabad’s stupidity in trying to influence Afghanistan. But the fact is that while it simultaneously seeks our help, it undermines the Durand Line, encourages the US invasion of Pakistan and its nationals habitually smuggle weapons and drugs through Pakistan, Afghanistan is a deadly brother and a deathly ally.

Back in the 1920s, during the Khilafat Movement, some Muslims of India decided to migrate to Afghanistan. Afghanistan closed its borders and countless perished. For the past 35 years, Pakistan has housed the largest population of Afghan refugees — the largest population of refugees in any country and yet we are the proverbial bad guys. As someone who believes that these refugees be now naturalised, I am the first one to accept that they have not lived in luxury, but they have lived and in circumstances not very dissimilar to a majority of Pakistani citizens. There is one hell of an ungrateful country there then.

And there is no point in blaming India for all this. I tell you, many Pakistanis who wince at the prospects of Narendra Modi becoming India’s prime minister find it easier to work with a government led by him than any in Afghanistan. And if this comes across as a diatribe to you, sirs, you know all you have to do is only to look into the mirror.

Published in The Express Tribune, April 5th, 2014.

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SOURCE: Pakistan’s Afghan burden – The Express Tribune

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nice spellings lol ....ill read later...thnks for sharing it with us!

 

[Marshmallow]

1)Seal the Pak-Afghan border by erecting a wall with 24/7 surveillance. Just buy Wakhan corridor from Afghanistan & then seal the whole damn border.

2-a)Launch massive operation & crush the remaining TTP/BLA/etc terrorists on Pakistani soil brutally with zero tolerance.

2-b)Accept Afghan refugees as Pakistanis & give them citizenship. Educate their kids so that they can pull their stone age parents dark brains towards brightness & become better citizens of Pakistan.

why hasnt it yet been sealed or fenced then? what's stopping us? if the differences are very serious and are like that since Partition?

 

[OrionHunter]

First of all, I highly doubt you did, unless you've been involved in deep kind of debate before, there's only one Indian I've come across in all my foruming time who argued with the relevant history and facts, he is on this very forum, but not so active.

Let me sum it up for you briefly. The taliban were an entirely internal creation, resulting from an entire generation of children and young adults who grew up in a war torn nation, it's a tragedy, it really is. Now many factions existed at the times of the soviets, but never did they clash much, they all had their differences, but sometime in 1987 things did boil over a bit, long story short, some factions blamed the some of northern factions of conspiring with the soviets.

Then when the Soviets left, they left a HUGE power vacuum. You had their puppet government trying to stand in it's place, it faced huge problems, it's rule was entirely unsustainable, it's armed forces were wasted by AWOL and desertion. Then came the overthrow and a civil war, the horrors for which are all for us to see. There was a time where in Kabul, parts of the cities, some neighbourhoods, some streets were owned by individual militia leaders, it was utter lawlessness. A lot of ethnic massacres occurred. Down south, the perception of Dostum and Massoud was that of them being murderous devils.

Again long story short, cue the taliban, born out of what people called the 'Kandahar student movement' in 1994, taliban were a reaction to the times, and we had nothing to do with their creation. And compared to the rest, the taliban seemed like angels, people supported them, they bought order in the name of Islam, now the perception is of course different. But the point being, the Afghan taliban had a hugely successful campaign in the months following their creation, they swept through the land iwth great speed, only because of the fact that they did indeed have support.

That is the relevant background knowledge, I've condensed it a whole lot, a HUGE lot. But still, it was facts and history, not just rhetoric.

I've never disputed the history or the birth of the Taliban as you have brought out. What I'm trying to put forward is the recent past, present and the future.

You tell me, hasn't the ISI been supporting the Afghan Taliban especially the Haqqani faction/Quetta Shaura? Why? Please answer this question, not the history of the Taliban of which there is no dispute.

And another to buttress my claims. You must be aware of the infamous Kunduz airlift, to evacuate hundreds of top commanders and members of the Taliban, their Pakistani military advisers including ISI agents and Pak army personnel from the city of Kunduz in November 2001 just before its capture by U.S. and the Northern Alliance forces.

The U.S. administration agreed to the airlift in an attempt to appease Mush and avoid destabilizing the Pakistani government, who, although overtly an ally of the U.S. in the WOT, had always supported the Taliban. This Pakistani evacuation of anti-U.S. fighters belonging to the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the ISI is also detailed in the BBC documentary, Secret Pakistan: Double Cross and Backlash.

So, do you still deny the PA / ISI's deep linkages with the Afghan Taliban? Gen Hamid Gul doesn't hesitate to say so. No wonder he is called the father of the Taliban! He even led the failed attack on Jalalabad. According to Brigadier Mohammad Yousef, an officer of the ISI, "the Jihad never recovered from Jalalabad". As a result of this failure, Hamid Gul was sacked by Benazir Bhutto and replaced by Lt Gen Shamsur Rahman Kallu, who pursued a more classical policy of support to the militants fighting Afghanistan.

In a nutshell what I wanted to bring out was the fact that the PA and the ISI have been deeply involved with the Afghan Taliban for years and will therefore try to never allow this investment to go in vain.

 

[kushan]

Well fencing the border is not an option, first of all none of our country got the economy to build and maintain the fence or wall. Not to mention the huge amounts of soldiers from both countries who would have to patrol it, otherwise the tribal border citizens of both countries would blow their way through the fence.

What is needed is corporation on mutual interests, such as economic development and stability, only in that way peace and friendship between our two government are possible.

Afghanistan do not need to share the costs of fencing, mining and monitoring the border, its pakistan's idea. Afghanistan can not defeat terrorism if the border remains porous. Peace and friendship with Pakistan can be achieved once afghanistan recognizes the durand, it will stop pakistan from scheming and interference in afghanistan. Economic interests of pakistani pakhtuns are in pakistan so let them have a pakistani dreams.....

 

[Afghan-India]

Afghanistan do not need to share the costs of fencing, mining and monitoring the border, its pakistan's idea. Afghanistan can not defeat terrorism if the border remains porous. Peace and friendship with Pakistan can be achieved once afghanistan recognizes the durand, it will stop pakistan from scheming and interference in afghanistan. Economic interests of pakistani pakhtuns are in pakistan so let them have a pakistani dreams.....

Pakistan can not alone build the fence, you guys just don't have the economy for it.

 

[kushan]

Why not it will also teach a great lesson to 5million filthy afghanis who will be kicked out of pakistan and once we fence this we wouldn't allow any afghani without a visa and there would be no terrorism in shape of TTP in pakistan as afghanis are hiding mullah radio and other terrorists.

TTP is pakistan indigenous problem, in kunar and nuristan they are provided sanctuaries by your friends afghan taliban who are controlling those two provinces thanks to their sanctuaries in pakistan. Fencing durand will keep your taliban filth away from afghans who want peace and stability, not terrorism which stems from north waziristan and quetta.

Pakistan can not alone build the fence, you guys just don't have the economy for it.

So what? Its pakistan's headache how to build 2600 km long fence on mostly mountainous terrain...

1)Seal the Pak-Afghan border by erecting a wall with 24/7 surveillance. Just buy Wakhan corridor from Afghanistan & then seal the whole damn border.

Who told you wakhan corridor is for sale?

 

[S.Bukhari]

TTP is pakistan indigenous problem, in kunar and nuristan they are provided sanctuaries by your friends afghan taliban who are controlling those two provinces thanks to their sanctuaries in pakistan. Fencing durand will keep your taliban filth away from afghans who want peace and stability, not terrorism which stems from north waziristan and
Why don't you peace loving very brave afghanis get lost from Pakistan it's been 40years since you ran away from your motherland and leave Us alone as we are terrorists .
I hope GOP kick out every single afghani from Pakistan so they may know the difference of enemy and friend.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I've never disputed the history or the birth of the Taliban as you have brought out. What I'm trying to put forward is the recent past, present and the future.

Then what?? The real story of their origin rubbishes any claim that Pakistan had to to do with it back then. And if you mean now and only now. Let me ask you, logically, because I do not know what compels you to make such a weird assumption.

If we didn't make these people, if we didn't properly back them, and if we ever did it was out of pure need and lack of other options, let me ask you, what on earth would poses us to start backing them after 9/11? After the US invasion? After the formation of the TTP?

This again makes me doubt you knew any of that story I just dictated.

You tell me, hasn't the ISI been supporting the Afghan Taliban especially the Haqqani faction/Quetta Shaura? Why? Please answer this question, not the history of the Taliban of which there is no dispute.

Absolute load of tosh. Again, you displease history, I see, especially the kind that doesn't suit your opinion. It may interest you to know who supported these people back in the 1980's.

Now, what do I mean by showing you these pics? We were once involved with these people and a whole host of other bad elements and our role in Afghanistan undoubtedly mutated later on in to something much uglier.

But where is the evidence my dear that we are still involved with all these people? Not a shred of credible evidence.
The only sources that really try to hit this home are the Afghans of all people, who claimed the ISI's hand even in the embassy bombing in Kabul, something which Hillary Clinton completely denied, there is no evidence at all. And these are what is called pressure tactics, and a political game at home. Scapegoat Pakistan became since about 2009, I'd say. It suddenly became convenient to put the blame on apparent failure and eventual defeat.

But I ask you now, who are the Haqqani Network, once again, I'm sure you don't know, but they are Afghan, their aims and ambitions are all in Afghanistan. The fact that they crept in to North Waziristan, does that mean ISI or Pak did it, NO! That is foolish, A lot of people poured right through after a mismanaged invasion, including refugees, Afghan talibs, tribesman, and what are now the TTP.

Now I ask, what again would poses us to back these guys? Especially the Haqqanis engaged in anti-NATO/US attacks? What the bloody hell do we possibly have to gain, huh?!? And why is it that if someone claims that they're in North Waziristan, they so conveniently ignore the fact that US drones hover over with army and govt consent, so if they are there, they are being hit and that is under our blessing.

Also, don't confuse the Afghan taliban and the Haqqani Network, and factions within that network with each other and the Afghan taliban. Yes, they're all evil, but speaking their name in the same breath and trying to blur the lines like that?? Try harder matey...

And don't get me started on support for Afghan taliban, that's an utter load of crap.

And another to buttress my claims.

I'd say quit. The other claims didn't seem to fair so well.

You must be aware of the infamous Kunduz airlift, to evacuate hundreds of top commanders and members of the Taliban, their Pakistani military advisers including ISI agents and Pak army personnel from the city of Kunduz in November 2001 just before its capture by U.S. and the Northern Alliance forces.

Again I pity anyone who bought in to all that crap. Another history lesson is in order.You mentioned Northern alliance, you know who these people are? Murderers, thugs, opportunists, militia as immoral and as rag tag as the taliban themselves.

When they swept through Afghanistan again with US support, they committed massacres of many people, including civilians, foreigners, captured talibs, so on.

Dostum in fact, threatened Pakistanis in Afghanistan, said that he'd treat them badly. We did airlift some diplomats, bureaucracy, some military, some Pakistanis, even the ordinary that were in Afghanistan, otherwise they'd have been killed.

The scale of this lift was blown way out of proportion. Furthermore, unlike those who argue some massive alien spaceship carried out 5000 talibs in one night, just before Kunduz fell. A load of crap.

For starters, the US knew of the lift, denied knowledge so as not to get the press jumping. Secondly, it had been occurring a few nights before kunduz fell, which indicates that the story that we flew out last ditch fleeing militia is a load of crap. Also, the US did have it's suspicions afterwards, but then after talks with us, we exchanged lists of passengers and exact details, and since then, no member of the US staff or NATO has ever bought up the matter again. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the US may actually have helped facilitate the lift. I could tell you a few more details, but this should suffice.

On a side note, I ask you, of all the key leaders of AQ and Afghan militants we caught throughout the years, once again, what would posses us to go and try freeing them, especially when the US was on bear mode in 2001 'you are either with us or against us'?

Once again, rubbish claim.

The U.S. administration agreed to the airlift in an attempt to appease Mush and avoid destabilizing the Pakistani government, who, although overtly an ally of the U.S. in the WOT, had always supported the Taliban. This Pakistani evacuation of anti-U.S. fighters belonging to the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the ISI is also detailed in the BBC documentary, Secret Pakistan: Double Cross and Backlash.

Please for the love of all that is holy, never mention that BBC rather B'BS' report in our convo again.
That was utter propaganda, and a while back I posted an extremely lengthy post on the details of that BS documentary.
In fact, I even wrote a very angry letter to the BBC about this particular report.

And as above, the whole airlift of evil thing's a lie.

So, do you still deny the PA / ISI's deep linkages with the Afghan Taliban?

Absolutely.

Gen Hamid Gul doesn't hesitate to say so.No wonder he is called the father of the Taliban! He even led the failed attack on Jalalabad. According to Brigadier Mohammad Yousef, an officer of the ISI, "the Jihad never recovered from Jalalabad". As a result of this failure, Hamid Gul was sacked by Benazir Bhutto and replaced by Lt Gen Shamsur Rahman Kallu, who pursued a more classical policy of support to the militants fighting Afghanistan

Ask yourself what time this man used to be king, not now, and yes we did some time during the mid'late 90's, where there was no other option alive in Afghanistan, when Afghanistan was in civil war. Even then we were reluctant to involve ourselves. But the situation was dire, we had an unstable neighbour, armed to the brim, ready to explode, millions of refugees, drugs and guns trade. We had Afghanistan imploding in civil war.

So yes, he is right, but you yourself said not to consider the past, because it's not always relevant. Also notice that today's taliban and talibs before 9/11 were very different. All one has to do is analyse the events immediately after 9/11 to realise.

Though, that's a story for another day.

In a nutshell what I wanted to bring out was the fact that the PA and the ISI have been deeply involved with the Afghan Taliban for years and will therefore try to never allow this investment to go in vain.

If you could see my face when I reacted to this sentence....

In my own cute little nutshell I'll say what I am trying to bring out is that unfortunately, watching a BS documentary and using wiki makes you no expert on any of this. Also, that we may have been involved with the talibs at some time, but that was never a problem for anyone for a while (again a story for another day), it was only for a short period. And everything about it is either utter BS or extremely exagerated

TTP is pakistan indigenous problem, in kunar and nuristan they are provided sanctuaries by your friends afghan taliban who are controlling those two provinces thanks to their sanctuaries in pakistan. Fencing durand will keep your taliban filth away from afghans who want peace and stability, not terrorism which stems from north waziristan and quetta.

 

[Armstrong]

@EyanKhan @Hyperion - You were supposed to reply to this thread !

 

[EyanKhan]

@EyanKhan @Hyperion - You were supposed to reply to this thread !

sorry bhai no time to read big threads or go into long discussions, preparing for exams

 

[Armstrong]

sorry bhai no time to read big threads or go into long discussions, preparing for exams

Good Luck !