Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214
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fatman17
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Talks on German marine, craft underway
ISLAMABAD: Naval Chief Admiral Noman Bashir has said that the Pakistan Navy needs aircraft and submarines and negotiations to buy submarine and aircraft from Germany is underway.
Pakistan Navy would chalk out strategy after evaluating the future challenges, he said while talking to media men after the convocation of Bahria University on Saturday.
"Pakistan navy cannot be strong without submarine and aircraft and we are holding talks with Germany in this respect but so far nothing has been finalised," he said. The world, he said, has become global village and Pakistan Navy is ready to meet any challenges in future.
"Pakistan Navy is the best navy in the region and is ready to face or stop any activity in sea limits," he said. Answering a question, he said Gwadar Port can play vital role to boost the country's economy in future. He said there is no truth that China is going to take control of Gwadar. The eye of whole world is on Arabic Ocean because this ocean has benefit for the world, he said.
The Pakistan Navy needs aircraft and submarines, said the navy chief, adding that negotiations to buy submarine and aircraft from Germany were underway.
"We have the best navy in the region and is ready to face or stop any activity in sea limits," said adding that the Pakistan Navy would chalk out strategy after evaluating the future challenges.
Post::FrontPage
the article is obviously not very clear - typical pak media muddled news!
ISLAMABAD: Naval Chief Admiral Noman Bashir has said that the Pakistan Navy needs aircraft and submarines and negotiations to buy submarine and aircraft from Germany is underway.
Pakistan Navy would chalk out strategy after evaluating the future challenges, he said while talking to media men after the convocation of Bahria University on Saturday.
"Pakistan navy cannot be strong without submarine and aircraft and we are holding talks with Germany in this respect but so far nothing has been finalised," he said. The world, he said, has become global village and Pakistan Navy is ready to meet any challenges in future.
"Pakistan Navy is the best navy in the region and is ready to face or stop any activity in sea limits," he said. Answering a question, he said Gwadar Port can play vital role to boost the country's economy in future. He said there is no truth that China is going to take control of Gwadar. The eye of whole world is on Arabic Ocean because this ocean has benefit for the world, he said.
The Pakistan Navy needs aircraft and submarines, said the navy chief, adding that negotiations to buy submarine and aircraft from Germany were underway.
"We have the best navy in the region and is ready to face or stop any activity in sea limits," said adding that the Pakistan Navy would chalk out strategy after evaluating the future challenges.
Post::FrontPage
the article is obviously not very clear - typical pak media muddled news!
t-birds
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By AHMED QURAISHI
Saturday, 27 June, 2009.
Ahmed Quraishi-Pakistan/Middle East politics, Iraq war, lebanon war, India Pakistan relations
ISLAMABAD, PakistanThe stench of a multimillion dollar scam can be smelled in the Pakistani capital. This time it has to do with the estimated $1.5 to 2 billion deal that the Pakistan Navy has almost finalized with Germany. But it seems there are strong lobbies in Islamabad that want to oblige France and buy French vessels because Paris is willing to pay heavy bribes. To ensure the deal is sealed with France instead of Germany, a junior bureaucrat has been appointed as Pakistans ambassador in Paris bypassing the Pakistani foreign office. Reports accuse President Asif Ali Zardari of orchestrating this appointment.
No one would be more disturbed at these developments than the government of Angela Merkel in Germany. Berlin went out on a limp to approve the Pakistani request for the submarines in the face of strong opposition to selling weapons to Pakistan.
India, whose 90% of weapons continue to be aimed at Pakistan while feigning peace and making excuses about threats from China, has launched a quiet diplomatic effort to convince Germany not to sell the vessels to Pakistan.
The deal with Germany is ready to be inked and the Germans await Pakistan to make a formal order for the submarines. But this order is not coming despite the visit by Pakistani Army Chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani to Berlin on 18 June. The Defense minister has also visited Germany earlier to discuss the deal.
Seven months ago, the CEO of the company that building the submarines for Pakistan visited Karachi and told The News International that the deal between Germany and Pakistan was 95% done.
So why is the Pakistani side reluctant now?
All is set for the new [German] submarines. Almost all hurdles have been removed. But we fail to understand why there is no pressure from the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) on DP MoD [Director of Purchases at the Ministry of Defense] to finalize the contract. Already the Indians are exploiting the situation and pressurizing the Germans to stop the sale. It is not less than a miracle that the Germans are adamant on going ahead with the sale despite the pressures. Pakistan Navy is set to lose this deal due to a lack of will, lack of decision making, and due to other vested interests.
One reason could be France. The French are lobbying to get Pakistan to cancel the German deal and buy French submarines.
Coincidentally, in 1995, the Pakistan Peoples Party was in power when the government bought three French Agosta 90-B submarines. President Zardari was an investment minister then. The incumbent French President Nicolas Sarkozy was also in power at the time as a minister and key aide to then French President Edouard Balladur. Ironically, both were powerful men who operated behind the scenes. And now both of them stand accused of receiving lavish kickbacks from the Agosta deal.
The French media has accused President Zardari of being part of a list of powerful people in both Paris and Islamabad who received kickbacks. The French judges have also accused others besides Mr. Zardari especially within the military of receiving parts of the bribe. On the French side, the bribe money from the deal helped finance the reelection campaign of Mr. Balladur in which Mr. Sarkozy played a key role.
A French judge has even accused some powerful Pakistanis including Mr. Zardari of having something to do with the murder of 11 French engineers in Karachi in May 2002 as a retaliation for the decision of Frances new government to cease bribe payments from the 1995 deal.
As recently as Friday, 26 June 2009, The Independent of London published a report titled Bribes and Bombs that mentioned the names of both President Zardari and President Sarkozy as prime suspects among others in receiving bribes for the French submarines. The opening paragraphs of the report said this:
A political scandal is gathering pace over claims that 11 French submarine engineers were murdered in a bomb attack in Karachi seven years ago to punish France for the non-payment of arms contract "commissions" to senior Pakistani officials. Lawyers for the French victims' families believe the attack, allegedly carried out by Islamist terrorists, was in fact part of a web of financial chicanery and political maneuvering which may yet severely embarrass senior figures, including the French President Nicolas Sarkozy and his Pakistani counterpart Asif Ali Zardari.
Interestingly, when Mr. Zardari decided to pay a visit to Paris in May, Mr. Sarkozy wasnt exactly a happy man. The French media highlighted a letter that the families of the 11 engineers sent to the French president showing displeasure at meeting Mr. Zardari. The German news agency, DPA, reported that Mr. Zardaris decision to visit Paris has placed the French president in a delicate position.
The Independent newspaper report published the following list of the key figures in the French submarine bribes scandal. This list is based on the French investigation into the murder of the 11 engineers.
The key figures: 15 years ago and now
Edouard Balladur, 80
THEN Centre-right prime minister in cohabitation with the Socialist president, François Mitterrand. Ran for presidency in 1995 but was knocked out by Chirac in first round.
ROLE It is alleged in documents seized by French police that his campaign quite possibly without his knowledge benefited from illegal kickbacks.
NOW Retired.
Jacques Chirac, 76
THEN Mayor of Paris and leader of the centre-right RPR party. Ran for the presidency in 1995 for the third time and won.
ROLE As president, he ordered the cancellation of the Pakistani "commissions", allegedly in pique against M Balladur.
NOW Retired.
Charles Millon, 63
THEN Chirac's defence minister in 1995.
ROLE Admits he cancelled Pakistani commissions on Chirac's orders.
NOW Faded from mainstream politics.
Asif Ali Zardari, 53
THEN Minister in government of his wife, Benazir Bhutto, who was murdered in 2007 after she returned to Pakistan.
ROLE Alleged to have "distributed" part of the commissions paid by France, which were legal under French law.
NOW President of Pakistan.
What is compounding suspicions is the decision by the Pakistani government to appoint a civil servant from the District Management Group [a classification within the Pakistani bureaucracy] as the Ambassador of Pakistan to France. This is an unusual appointment. For the first time, the Pakistan Foreign Office and the veteran diplomats there have been bypassed for this critical station. Again, Mr. Zardaris name has come up as the man behind the move and his spokesman had to step in to deny it.
So is the delay in the issuing of the order for the German submarines that were almost finalized in December 2008 has something to do with President Zardaris meeting with President Sarkozy of France in May 2009? Is the appointment of a junior civil servant as the envoy to Paris related to this? And has all of this something to do with the reluctance of the Ministry of Defense in issuing a purchase order for the German submarines?
The delay could also be an attempt at hurting the fast developing military ties between Pakistan and Germany.
Pakistan and Germany have deepened military and security ties over the past years.
Germany has become the fourth country after the United States, Japan and Russia to begin a strategic dialogue with Pakistan.
There are regular political-military talks with Pakistan army officials on security and military issues which include counter- terrorism and training of Pakistani officers in Germany.
Pakistani officers have received military training and education in Germany in recent years as part of military education and training programs
Pakistan needs the German Class-214 submarines. Indias military buildup is coupled with renewed aggressiveness toward Pakistan. The Indians are expected to use the naval buildup to bully Pakistan. It is imperative that Islamabad build up its naval defense to maintain peace through deterrence.
Saturday, 27 June, 2009.
Ahmed Quraishi-Pakistan/Middle East politics, Iraq war, lebanon war, India Pakistan relations
ISLAMABAD, PakistanThe stench of a multimillion dollar scam can be smelled in the Pakistani capital. This time it has to do with the estimated $1.5 to 2 billion deal that the Pakistan Navy has almost finalized with Germany. But it seems there are strong lobbies in Islamabad that want to oblige France and buy French vessels because Paris is willing to pay heavy bribes. To ensure the deal is sealed with France instead of Germany, a junior bureaucrat has been appointed as Pakistans ambassador in Paris bypassing the Pakistani foreign office. Reports accuse President Asif Ali Zardari of orchestrating this appointment.
No one would be more disturbed at these developments than the government of Angela Merkel in Germany. Berlin went out on a limp to approve the Pakistani request for the submarines in the face of strong opposition to selling weapons to Pakistan.
India, whose 90% of weapons continue to be aimed at Pakistan while feigning peace and making excuses about threats from China, has launched a quiet diplomatic effort to convince Germany not to sell the vessels to Pakistan.
The deal with Germany is ready to be inked and the Germans await Pakistan to make a formal order for the submarines. But this order is not coming despite the visit by Pakistani Army Chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani to Berlin on 18 June. The Defense minister has also visited Germany earlier to discuss the deal.
Seven months ago, the CEO of the company that building the submarines for Pakistan visited Karachi and told The News International that the deal between Germany and Pakistan was 95% done.
So why is the Pakistani side reluctant now?
All is set for the new [German] submarines. Almost all hurdles have been removed. But we fail to understand why there is no pressure from the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) on DP MoD [Director of Purchases at the Ministry of Defense] to finalize the contract. Already the Indians are exploiting the situation and pressurizing the Germans to stop the sale. It is not less than a miracle that the Germans are adamant on going ahead with the sale despite the pressures. Pakistan Navy is set to lose this deal due to a lack of will, lack of decision making, and due to other vested interests.
One reason could be France. The French are lobbying to get Pakistan to cancel the German deal and buy French submarines.
Coincidentally, in 1995, the Pakistan Peoples Party was in power when the government bought three French Agosta 90-B submarines. President Zardari was an investment minister then. The incumbent French President Nicolas Sarkozy was also in power at the time as a minister and key aide to then French President Edouard Balladur. Ironically, both were powerful men who operated behind the scenes. And now both of them stand accused of receiving lavish kickbacks from the Agosta deal.
The French media has accused President Zardari of being part of a list of powerful people in both Paris and Islamabad who received kickbacks. The French judges have also accused others besides Mr. Zardari especially within the military of receiving parts of the bribe. On the French side, the bribe money from the deal helped finance the reelection campaign of Mr. Balladur in which Mr. Sarkozy played a key role.
A French judge has even accused some powerful Pakistanis including Mr. Zardari of having something to do with the murder of 11 French engineers in Karachi in May 2002 as a retaliation for the decision of Frances new government to cease bribe payments from the 1995 deal.
As recently as Friday, 26 June 2009, The Independent of London published a report titled Bribes and Bombs that mentioned the names of both President Zardari and President Sarkozy as prime suspects among others in receiving bribes for the French submarines. The opening paragraphs of the report said this:
A political scandal is gathering pace over claims that 11 French submarine engineers were murdered in a bomb attack in Karachi seven years ago to punish France for the non-payment of arms contract "commissions" to senior Pakistani officials. Lawyers for the French victims' families believe the attack, allegedly carried out by Islamist terrorists, was in fact part of a web of financial chicanery and political maneuvering which may yet severely embarrass senior figures, including the French President Nicolas Sarkozy and his Pakistani counterpart Asif Ali Zardari.
Interestingly, when Mr. Zardari decided to pay a visit to Paris in May, Mr. Sarkozy wasnt exactly a happy man. The French media highlighted a letter that the families of the 11 engineers sent to the French president showing displeasure at meeting Mr. Zardari. The German news agency, DPA, reported that Mr. Zardaris decision to visit Paris has placed the French president in a delicate position.
The Independent newspaper report published the following list of the key figures in the French submarine bribes scandal. This list is based on the French investigation into the murder of the 11 engineers.
The key figures: 15 years ago and now
Edouard Balladur, 80
THEN Centre-right prime minister in cohabitation with the Socialist president, François Mitterrand. Ran for presidency in 1995 but was knocked out by Chirac in first round.
ROLE It is alleged in documents seized by French police that his campaign quite possibly without his knowledge benefited from illegal kickbacks.
NOW Retired.
Jacques Chirac, 76
THEN Mayor of Paris and leader of the centre-right RPR party. Ran for the presidency in 1995 for the third time and won.
ROLE As president, he ordered the cancellation of the Pakistani "commissions", allegedly in pique against M Balladur.
NOW Retired.
Charles Millon, 63
THEN Chirac's defence minister in 1995.
ROLE Admits he cancelled Pakistani commissions on Chirac's orders.
NOW Faded from mainstream politics.
Asif Ali Zardari, 53
THEN Minister in government of his wife, Benazir Bhutto, who was murdered in 2007 after she returned to Pakistan.
ROLE Alleged to have "distributed" part of the commissions paid by France, which were legal under French law.
NOW President of Pakistan.
What is compounding suspicions is the decision by the Pakistani government to appoint a civil servant from the District Management Group [a classification within the Pakistani bureaucracy] as the Ambassador of Pakistan to France. This is an unusual appointment. For the first time, the Pakistan Foreign Office and the veteran diplomats there have been bypassed for this critical station. Again, Mr. Zardaris name has come up as the man behind the move and his spokesman had to step in to deny it.
So is the delay in the issuing of the order for the German submarines that were almost finalized in December 2008 has something to do with President Zardaris meeting with President Sarkozy of France in May 2009? Is the appointment of a junior civil servant as the envoy to Paris related to this? And has all of this something to do with the reluctance of the Ministry of Defense in issuing a purchase order for the German submarines?
The delay could also be an attempt at hurting the fast developing military ties between Pakistan and Germany.
Pakistan and Germany have deepened military and security ties over the past years.
Germany has become the fourth country after the United States, Japan and Russia to begin a strategic dialogue with Pakistan.
There are regular political-military talks with Pakistan army officials on security and military issues which include counter- terrorism and training of Pakistani officers in Germany.
Pakistani officers have received military training and education in Germany in recent years as part of military education and training programs
Pakistan needs the German Class-214 submarines. Indias military buildup is coupled with renewed aggressiveness toward Pakistan. The Indians are expected to use the naval buildup to bully Pakistan. It is imperative that Islamabad build up its naval defense to maintain peace through deterrence.
Jako
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I think this is the same guy,pak warrior-pakistani bachcha......and no doubt he is an indian......this is embarassing guys,how can someone get down to this level!?.....i apologise on his behalf,all indians are not the same.....he is a ******* retard.....hope u guys understand
DarkStar
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don't worry, no culture, religion, country is free from such spasticated morons...
although i'd hoped the civil environment we provide on this forum would make such occurnces less and less. Some hope.
ouiouiouiouiouioui
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are we dicussing here something serious...or this is a propaganda
Seeing a 'Degrading pattern of PAK' in his posts, once I had accused him of being an Indian and he cleverly ditched it. My gut feeling was that he was one of the lowest of the low of BR type Pakistani haters but definitely clever a like fox. BTW, JAKO dada thanks vary much for admitting it and it is absolutely new from a Indian to me, which shows new breed of Indians are emerging. I really appreciate it from the bottom of my heart.
Jako
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Who is Indian or did i miss something out here??
you were extremely lucky to miss it ,dude......believe me!
Myth_buster_1
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usman ansari is right on the spot for the first time!
guys pakistan navy have to decide what they want zardari cant do any thing and he is not that power full at the movement if any thing happen from zardar side opposition will give him hard time
wait till september german might be rethinking we need sub and germany cant delay after sep we have to go for some thing
wait till september german might be rethinking we need sub and germany cant delay after sep we have to go for some thing
this thread is for discussion ony i am not saying that U deal will not go through
If geman by any chance dont sell us the U boats what are the best option for pakistan
I think instead of going to french once again we shuld go for chinese subs we have some expertise we buy two or three best availabe chinese subs and then work with them for improving the technological stuff
If geman by any chance dont sell us the U boats what are the best option for pakistan
I think instead of going to french once again we shuld go for chinese subs we have some expertise we buy two or three best availabe chinese subs and then work with them for improving the technological stuff
TaimiKhan
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well in my opinion the best option for the time being would be french submarines as we have infrastructure for it.
As for chinese subs, well newer models are coming into operations but their capability is still not known publicly. What is known is that their combat system may be based on french combat system by Thales, which french had given to china in the 80s, and as for the latest chinese non-nuclear sub, it has some design familiarity with the Russian kilo class subs, so there seems nothing new in them, but i think pak navy should start looking towards chinese navy, as if not now, in future chinese subs would be of great quality, as they are also going for a very modern and effective submarine force by keeping american subs as their foes, so they would be making something to counter the state of the art submarines and ASW ships.
As for chinese subs, well newer models are coming into operations but their capability is still not known publicly. What is known is that their combat system may be based on french combat system by Thales, which french had given to china in the 80s, and as for the latest chinese non-nuclear sub, it has some design familiarity with the Russian kilo class subs, so there seems nothing new in them, but i think pak navy should start looking towards chinese navy, as if not now, in future chinese subs would be of great quality, as they are also going for a very modern and effective submarine force by keeping american subs as their foes, so they would be making something to counter the state of the art submarines and ASW ships.
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