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Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

you make a claim, you prove it. It's not my job or headache. do everyone a favor, don't waste anyone's time anymore with your pa"trolling" duty, there's enough hindutva cyber warriors lurking around.

hINDUVIDATA MY ARSE.. You and your fellow national (Metal falcon) claimed IN to be superior only in numerical terms, so don't you think the onus is on you to prove the gospel truth..

IPF
 
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ok i have had my fill of the stupid crap that some of you think is acceptable on here. ANYMORE nonsense from anyone will result is infractions and bannings
 
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i dont see a reason why this thread should be locked because some bk moron decides to ruin the thread.

and please kindly edit my last post with this.

Guess what ... you are way off the mark. The contract has not been completely done yet. Add to that retooling your docks etc .. You are on a tangent on your timelines.

guess what. 95% of the contract has been finalized and of course the program is even ahead of 126 MRCA of your confused air force who still does not know what it wants.

Any ways like I said It will at best make life little difficult. I don't see any earth shattering changes in balance of power. Anyways PN has been a Sub focussed navy.
lol
like we have said to you earlier
"PLEASE do not switch timelines around!"
so by the time we get our first batch of U-214 along with 3+1 Agosta-90B AIP "2015" IN will have 4 inferior scorpene maybe 1 or 2 Nuclear subs and some old 209 and akula junk.
here is the sate of your mighty IN sub fleet.
Indian Navy's submarine fleet in poor health: CAG
The stinging CAG report states that no more than 48 per cent of India's submarine fleet is available for waging war, should India be attacked.
The report, tabled in Lok Sabha on Friday, says half of India's submarine fleet is in disrepair and a grossly inadequate, three decade-old radar network has left the country vulnerable to enemy attack.

now you know what we are talking about.

ASW is the most important part of discussion. I have included it as Mr Assad had talked about IN as a whole.. ASW is the most predominant way to engage sub. Period. Learn and then post.

keeping the timeline factor in mind, PN may have a better ASW before IN is able to have one because PN for the first time is getting a lot of attention from the top military brass. dont for get we will have the most (advance "13" P-3/P-3 AEW) and "6" anti-sub frigates and we may have a short time advantage over IN.

Yup if IAF chooses F18 then they have a better platform over the said competitors. F 18's sensor suites outclasses the rest any given Sunday.
any links? so which "sensor suites" outclasses even rafale? the thing is you dont know what you are talking about and you do not even know a thing or 2 about super hornet other then it has AESA radar “US stuff” which will satisfy your ego.


Ok quit posting to me if you don't know what you are talking about except mongering pathetic oneliners..... IN surface and maritime reconissance wing will be primarily engaging PNsubs...

lol this is not PM its a public forum and nether I am cutting your line on private phone conversations
 
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While the news is welcome, we probably shouldn't celebrate just yet.

IIRC, Jliu raised two critical roadblocks between Pakistan's procurement of the U-214.

1. HDW would not be interested in selling the U214 to Pakistan at the risk of losing a larger contract with the Indians.

This seems to have been overcome, going by the interview at the beginning of this thread.

2. The potential of the German parliament not approving the deal due to pressure from the Indian-Israeli lobby.

Before the Mumbai attacks I would have argued, in the light of dramatically improved US-Pak cooperation on the WoT, that the pressure from the Indo-Israeli lobby would not be an issue. Now, a lot is going to depend on how Pakistan's cooperation with the Indian investigation is going to pan out. Unreasonable Indian demands and lack of cooperation with Pakistan (little involvement in the investigation, limited sharing of information, and huge expectations) could also skew this against Pakistan, despite the willingness to cooperate from our side, but that is a matter for a different thread.
 
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Opening thread again.

Please leave the 'India vs Pakistan' arguments out of this please.
 
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While the news is welcome, we probably shouldn't celebrate just yet.

IIRC, Jliu raised two critical roadblocks between Pakistan's procurement of the U-214.

1. HDW would not be interested in selling the U214 to Pakistan at the risk of losing a larger contract with the Indians.

This seems to have been overcome, going by the interview at the beginning of this thread.

2. The potential of the German parliament not approving the deal due to pressure from the Indian-Israeli lobby.

Before the Mumbai attacks I would have argued, in the light of dramatically improved US-Pak cooperation on the WoT, that the pressure from the Indo-Israeli lobby would not be an issue. Now, a lot is going to depend on how Pakistan's cooperation with the Indian investigation is going to pan out. Unreasonable Indian demands and lack of cooperation with Pakistan (little involvement in the investigation, limited sharing of information, and huge expectations) could also skew this against Pakistan, despite the willingness to cooperate from our side, but that is a matter for a different thread.
well, I don't really know what to say? From what I can see, there is reversal in roles between, Germany, a former sub supplier to India, and France, a former sub supplier to Pakistan. Germany has bagged deals with the koreans, greeks, turks, and I think the Italians are included as well. I don't think any event will put a stop to their momentum.

for the past few months, there have been plenty of German delegations visiting Pakistan, promoting economic cooperation and pledging aid. More importantly, the German army chief paid a visit to Pakistan personally. Germany's supply lines run through Pakistan, that is another factor to pay attention to. If Pakistan withdraws its troops from the western border, and goes even further allying itself to the TTP like recent news articles are suggesting, well you get the picture.

don't worry, Agno, this was a done deal a long time ago. :cheers: this time, all submarines will be constructed in Pakistan. Also keep in mind, that we can fulfill our next future submarine requirement with the turks. The turks will develop their own hull based off the U-214, it will be larger, house their latest command&control, subsystems, sonars, torpedos co-developed by turks and south koreans, and their own hydrogen fuel cells.

here is a recent news article giving us a good idea about Germany's policies.

Germany agrees to write off 40m euro Pak debt

Monday, December 01, 2008
By Shafqat Munir

ISLAMABAD: Germany on Sunday agreed to write off euro 40 million of Pakistan debt on the condition that Pakistan invests Ä20 million in domestic health programmes supported by the Global Fund.

HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria remain public health threats in Pakistan with approximately 85,000 people living with HIV and many lives lost every year due to malaria and tuberculosis.

To date, the Global Fund has approved funding for six programmes fighting HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria in Pakistan worth more than US$130 million over five years. Of this amount, approximately US$37 million has already been disbursed to the country.

A tripartite agreement under ‘Debt2Health’ initiative was signed in Doha (Qatar) on the sidelines of the UN follow-up conference on Financing for Development among Germany, Pakistan and the Global Fund with a commitment to fight AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria. Pakistan became the second country after Indonesia to benefit from ‘Detb2Health’ financing instrument, a type of debt swap for health. In September 2007, Germany agreed to write off Ä50 million of Indonesian debt of similar nature.

The agreement with Pakistan was concluded between Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul, the special envoy of the UN Secretary General for the conference, German federal minister for Economic Cooperation and Development, Minister of State for Finance and Economic Affairs Hina Rabbani Khar and Dr Michel Kazatchkine, Executive Director of the Global Fund at a signing ceremony followed by a press conference.

Speaking on this occasion, Hina Rabbani Khar said, “The ‘Debt2Health’ initiative allows us to turn debt into urgently-needed new resources for health in Pakistan.” She hoped that other creditor countries would join this initiative and offer ‘Debt2Health’ agreements to Pakistan and other countries struggling with high disease burden and high levels of debt service.

“The Debt2Health is a win-win situation for Pakistan, Germany and the Global Fund. Pakistan receives more investments in health, the Global Fund increases predictability for its work and Germany contributes its share to the global fight against AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria,” said the German minister, adding, “I am proud that Pakistan and Germany are among the pioneers in this new initiative which bears testimony to the good relations between our countries.” The Global Fund’s Executive Director, Michel Kazatchkine, also hailed the agreement. He said: “‘Debt2Health’ goes beyond traditional financing for development.”

Germany agrees to write off 40m euro Pak debt
 
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ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2008

Jane's Defence Weekly

Pakistan on verge of selecting HDW submarine

Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok

Pakistan appears close to selecting Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft's (HDW's) Type 214 design for its next-generation submarine requirement in preference to the Scorpene offered by DCNS.

According to media reports in Karachi, HDW Chief Executive Officer Walter Freitag said the company had drawn up technical specifications to build the three boats in Pakistan and that a contract was almost complete.

Spokesmen for the Pakistan Navy (PN) and the Pakistan Ministry of Defence told Jane's on 27 November that they were not prepared to comment on the reports. However, an HDW spokeswoman said she would not deny Freitag's statement that "the commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent".

She added: "We can confirm that we have been in discussions with the Pakistan government and the Pakistan Navy about the submarines, but we are not in a position to reveal the nature of those talks."

Freitag, who was attending the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar in Karachi, reportedly said the first submarine would be delivered to the navy 64 months after contract signature, with boats two and three following within 12 months.

The PN has been evaluating the Type 214 alongside the French-built Scorpene for a contract worth around USD1.1 billion. Because India decided in October 2005 to acquire six Scorpenes, DCNS initially offered Pakistan a modified design called Marlin.

The new submarines will replace the PN's two French-built Hashmat-class (Agosta 70) boats, which date from the 1970s. A contract award was expected in December 2006 but has been put back three times, even though the navy's requirement is for delivery around 2013.

The vessels will be built under licence by Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW), which has been modernising its facilities to prepare for the submarine project. A source at KSEW told Jane's that this upgrade work was approximately one year away from completion.

Pakistan also operates three DCNS-designed Khalid-class (Agosta 90B) submarines, the last of which, PNS/M Himza , was built in Karachi and commissioned in September 2008.

© 2008 Jane's Information Group
 
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Pakistan appears close to selecting Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft's (HDW's) Type 214 design for its next-generation submarine requirement in preference to the Scorpene offered by DCNS.

According to media reports in Karachi, HDW Chief Executive Officer Walter Freitag said the company had drawn up technical specifications to build the three boats in Pakistan and that a contract was almost complete.

Spokesmen for the Pakistan Navy (PN) and the Pakistan Ministry of Defence told Jane's on 27 November that they were not prepared to comment on the reports. However, an HDW spokeswoman said she would not deny Freitag's statement that "the commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent".


this peace of news is very authentic I read it on Janes.
:victory::victory::victory::victory::victory:
 
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Well this peace of news was just released on 2nd december...anything before that was rumours and speculations.
 
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But First we need to make more Agosta 90b.
Here i also hve question can we make more,if we want to make more,Are we need more hulls from France..
It will take abt 8 year to induct these submarine(U214) in our inventory.
Our inventory is already reduced by 4.Would that, we hve 4 more as soon as possible.
 
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Well once our Agostas are upgraded and all are fitted with Mesma they will be a credible threat to any naval force and a credible stop gap before full 214 deployment.
 
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Pakistan is the first nation bordering the Indian Ocean to acquire an air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarine capability.

PNS/M Hamza, the country's third and final Khalid-class (Agosta 90B) has this capability.

Submarine are very sophisticated and expensive piece of equipment. Numerical strength does not matter but capability of the machine does.
 
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seniors can someone please guide what was the hurdel in procurment of U212 a far better platform compared to the U214 having a nonmagntised hull, virtually silent and undetectable.

aslo please can canyone tell if the U214will also be using the fuel cell same as those of U212 which are said to be really advance technology!

and again what went wrong for U212 as it would have been the best option, being regarded as among the best in conventional subs, was there the money factor only as i have not heared of any other problem!

Guidance from you will be really helpfull
thanx
 
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