Pakistanis of Greeks and Macedonians Descent

[RiazHaq]

Haq's Musings: Kalash Girls of Pakistan

Many Pakistanis of Chitral, Hunza, Gilgit and Nagir have long claimed descent from the Greek and the Macedonian invaders who were led into India by Alexander in 327 B.C. Among them are the Kalash people who live in Chitral, Pakistan.

Kalash Genes:


Last year, a genetic study reported in The New York Times found that the Kalash people's DNA seems to indicate that they had an infusion of European blood during a "mixing event" at roughly the time of Alexander's conquests in 4th century B.C. This isolated people are thus most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Greek-Macedonian armies who came to this region 2,300 years ago.

The study was published in February 2014 in the journal Science by a team led by Simon Myers of Oxford University, Garrett Hellenthal of University College London and Daniel Falush of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.

A 2013 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Human Genetics has found that vast majority of Indians today have descended from a mixture of two genetically divergent populations--Ancestral North Indians (ANIs) who migrated from Central Asia, the Middle East, the Caucasus, and Europe, and Ancestral South Indians (ASI), who are not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent.

Pakistan is a racially diverse country with a range of of skin colors and facial features. There are people of European descent in its northern areas like the Kalash along with the Sheedi or Makrani people of African descent in parts of the south along the Arabian Sea coastal line.

Sheedis of Sindh and Balochistan:

Sheedis are thought to be the descendants of African slaves brought to the shores of Pakistan at the height of the international slave trade that started in the 7th century and continued into the 18th century.

Also known as Siddis in other parts of South Asia, they are believed to have arrived in India in 628 AD at the Bharuch port. Several others followed with the first Arab invasions of Sindh in 712 AD. The latter group are believed to have been soldiers with Muhammad bin Qasim's Arab army, and were called Zanjis. Siddis are related to the Bantu peoples of Southeast Africa. They were brought to the Indian subcontinent as slaves by the Portuguese.

The Sheedis of Pakistan, also known as Makranis, live primarily along the Makran Coast in Balochistan, and southern part of Sindh. In Karachi, they are mainly concentrated in Lyari. Pir Mangho is revered by Sheedis as their patron saint. Sheedis have an annual celebration in Manghopir area around the shrine of their patron saint.

Chitral Valley:

A 10,000 ft high mountain pass and big glaciers separate the scenic Chitral valley, the home of the Kalash, from the Swat Valley that was hit by the Taliban insurgency in 2009. It has so far served to insulate these pagan people from the rising tide of intolerance and religious militancy in the Islamic Republic.



A CNN story calling the Kalsh "the happiest people in Pakistan" succinctly captured their lives in the following sentence: "Year round, the Kalasha dance their way through a stream of festivals and rituals, and socially and culturally, theirs appears to be a joyful existence".

Hunza's Greek and Macedonian Connections:

A few years ago, the neighboring Hunza people,who also claim descent from Alexander's men, found themselves in the middle of a tussle between the governments of Greece and Macedonia. Below is a post I wrote back in 2008 on this subject:

"I am honored to be in my country Macedonia", said Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan of Hunza, as he arrived in Skopje, the capital of the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia in July this year, according to Financial Times.

So what is the Wali of Hunza doing in Macedonia? It is hard to believe but true that Pakistan and Pakistanis figure prominently in the ongoing struggle for the inheritance of the legacy of Alexander, the Great, and with it, Macedonia as a moniker. Both Greece and the country of Macedonia, officially called the "Former Yugoslav Republic (FYR) of Macedonia" by UN and other international bodies, claim Alexander's legacy.

The prince, his wife Princess Rani Atiqa and their entourage claim descent from Alexander the Great’s conquering army, which reached their Hunza tribal homeland in northern Pakistan 23 centuries ago.

The princely state of the Hunza is currently in northern Pakistan, former part of Persia, and the place of their residence is, according to historic data, the most eastern point of the kingdom of Alexander of Macedonia.

Hunza folklore gave a shot in the arm to the ex-Yugoslav country of 2m – still embroiled, 18 years after independence, in a frustrating “name dispute” with Greece, whose northern province is also called Macedonia. Greece has opposed the country of Macedonia calling itself Macedonia. To pacify Greeks, the world calls the nation of Macedonia F.Y.R. Macedonia, where F.Y.R. stands for the former Yugoslav republic.

As Greece and F.Y.R. Macedonia fight over their claim to the name of Macedonia and Alexander's heritage, they have both been courting the Kalash and Hunza people of Pakistan. While the FYR of Macedonia rolled out the red carpet for the prince of Hunza, the Greek government is funding the cultural activities of the Kalash people of northern Pakistan.



Aleksandar Dimiskovski, a business consultant in Skopje, told Financial Times: “The [Hunza] visit provides affirmation of our ties to the former Macedonia of Alexander the Great. Approval from these people confirms that the legacy of ancient Macedonia belongs to the Republic of Macedonia, not just to Greece.”


The fair-skinned, blue-eyed Hunza people, whose own accounts trace their descent to Alexander’s march-weary troops, are renowned for their longevity and their high literacy rate, says the Financial Times story on Hunza. In the 1930s, scientists in Nazi Germany also combed the Himalayas in search of lost Aryan cousins.

In addition to the Macedonian prime minister and his cabinet, the Hunza delegation also met Archbishop of Ohrid and Macedonia, HH Stefan, and Skopje Mayor Trifun Kostovski, according to Turkish Weekly Journal.

The delegation visited sites and towns throughout Macedonia, and attended the renowned Galichnik Wedding. The Hunza visit was organized by Macedonian Institute for Strategic Research.

FYR Macedonia has been making efforts to seek the attention and support of the United States in its fight with Greece. As a part of this campaign, Macedonian officials attempted to ingratiate the US by trying to become an ally in the war on terror. Macedonian security officials planned and staged fake anti-terrorist raids in which six innocent Pakistanis and an Indian migrant were killed in cold blood in late 2001, two months after 911 attacks. The New York Times covered the details of this fake tale of terror in Macedonia in a May 2004 story. The Hunza prince's sponsored visit, and the warm welcome he received in Macedonia, seem to be a continuation of the same cynical campaign that started with the massacre of innocent Pakistanis in Macedonia.

Here's a video clip of Wali of Hunza's visit to Macedonia:

Related Links:

Haq's Musings

Pakistan's Greek and Macedonian Connection

Soccer Loving Sheedis of Lyari

Taliban Insurgency in Swat

Harvard Genetics Study Finds Most Indians Not Indigenous

Rising Tide of Intolerance in Pakistan

Pakistani Cover Girls

Pakistan's Top Fashion Models

Upwardly Mobile Pakistan


Haq's Musings: Kalash Girls of Pakistan

 

[Dubious]

As Greece and F.Y.R. Macedonia fight over their claim to the name of Macedonia and Alexander's heritage, they have both been courting the Kalash and Hunza people of Pakistan.

It is interesting people looking at Pakistanis for approval...Just get a genetic test to identify who more closely resembles the dead man called Alexander the great

Rather disgusting to stoop this low:

Macedonian security officials planned and staged fake anti-terrorist raids in which six innocent Pakistanis and an Indian migrant were killed in cold blood in late 2001, two months after 911 attacks. The New York Times covered the details of this fake tale of terror in Macedonia in a May 2004 story.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

This is big disrespect towards people of subcontinent and act of showing supremacy of a failed adventure of greeks and macedonians in the subcontinent.

This Alexander tried to change the genes and hereditary of every place he invaded. But after he was bashed by Purshotam(Porus) in Punjab region of Multan(now in Pakistan) he stopped his failed adventure out of fear. Later other empires from Indian side took back the territory. And greeks/macedonians were thrown out of the subcontinent into Iran.

 

[As is - where is]

King Porus (the Latinisation of the Greek Πῶρος - Pôros, a representation of the Puru Vedic tribe) was the King of Paurava, an ancient kingdom located between the Jhelum and Chenab rivers (in Greek, the Hydaspes and the Acesines rivers) in modern-day Punjab, Pakistan, and later of dominions extending to the Beas (in Greek, the Hyphasis). Porus fought Alexander the Great in the Battle of the Hydaspes River in 326 BC (at the site of modern-day Mong) and was defeated. He then served Alexander as a client king.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

King Porus (the Latinisation of the Greek Πῶρος - Pôros, a representation of the Puru Vedic tribe) was the King of Paurava, an ancient kingdom located between the Jhelum and Chenab rivers (in Greek, the Hydaspes and the Acesines rivers) in modern-day Punjab, Pakistan, and later of dominions extending to the Beas (in Greek, the Hyphasis). Porus fought Alexander the Great in the Battle of the Hydaspes River in 326 BC (at the site of modern-day Mong) and was defeated. He then served Alexander as a client king.

If he was defeated why didn't Alexander march towards further east? And Alexander gave a piece of Land to the defeated king in Multan (Hydaspes) Nonsense!

Alexander was thrashed by Purshottam(Porus) in Pakistan brutally!

 

[Jaanbaz]

They are not Greek or Macedonian. They are native to the region. Their religion also shows signs of Paganism practised throughout Afghanistan by ancient Iranic or Indo-European people.

 

[As is - where is]

If he was defeated why didn't Alexander march towards further east? And Alexander gave a piece of Land to the defeated king in Multan (Hydaspes) Nonsense!

Alexander was thrashed by Purshottam(Porus) in Pakistan brutally!

After Aornos, Alexander crossed the Indus and fought and won an epic battle against King Porus, who ruled a region in the Punjab, in the Battle of the Hydaspes in 326 BC. Alexander was impressed by Porus's bravery, and made him an ally. He appointed Porus as satrap, and added to Porus' territory land that he did not previously own. Choosing a local helped him control these lands so distant from Greece. Alexander founded two cities on opposite sides of the Hydaspes river, naming one Bucephala, in honor of his horse, who died around this time. The other was Nicaea (Victory), thought to be located at the site of modern day Mong, Punjab.

East of Porus' kingdom, near the Ganges River, were the Nanda Empire of Magadha and further east the Gangaridai Empire (of modern day Bangladesh). Fearing the prospect of facing other large armies and exhausted by years of campaigning, Alexander's army mutinied at the Hyphasis River (Beas), refusing to march farther east. This river thus marks the easternmost extent of Alexander's conquests.

Plutarch:

"As for the Macedonians, however, their struggle with Porus blunted their courage and stayed their further advance into India. For having had all they could do to repulse an enemy who mustered only twenty thousand infantry and two thousand horse, they violently opposed Alexander when he insisted on crossing the river Ganges also, the width of which, as they learned, was thirty-two furlongs, its depth a hundred fathoms, while its banks on the further side were covered with multitudes of men-at-arms and horsemen and elephants. For they were told that the kings of the Ganderites and Praesii were awaiting them with eighty thousand horsemen, two hundred thousand footmen, eight thousand chariots, and six thousand war elephants."


Alexander tried to persuade his soldiers to march farther, but his general Coenus pleaded with him to change his opinion and return; the men, he said, "longed to again see their parents, their wives and children, their homeland". Alexander eventually agreed and turned south, marching along the Indus. Along the way his army conquered the Malhi (in modern day Multan) and other Indian tribes and sustained an injury during the siege.

 

[Dubious]

They are not Greek or Macedonian. They are native to the region. Their religion also shows signs of Paganism practised throughout Afghanistan by ancient Iranic or Indo-European people.

Their DNA was manipulated

Last year, a genetic study reported in The New York Times found that the Kalash people's DNA seems to indicate that they had an infusion of European blood during a "mixing event" at roughly the time of Alexander's conquests in 4th century B.C. This isolated people are thus most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Greek-Macedonian armies who came to this region 2,300 years ago.

The study was published in February 2014 in the journal Science by a team led by Simon Myers of Oxford University, Garrett Hellenthal of University College London and Daniel Falush of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

After Aornos, Alexander crossed the Indus and fought and won an epic battle against King Porus, who ruled a region in the Punjab, in the Battle of the Hydaspes in 326 BC. Alexander was impressed by Porus's bravery, and made him an ally. He appointed Porus as satrap, and added to Porus' territory land that he did not previously own. Choosing a local helped him control these lands so distant from Greece. Alexander founded two cities on opposite sides of the Hydaspes river, naming one Bucephala, in honor of his horse, who died around this time. The other was Nicaea (Victory), thought to be located at the site of modern day Mong, Punjab.

East of Porus' kingdom, near the Ganges River, were the Nanda Empire of Magadha and further east the Gangaridai Empire (of modern day Bangladesh). Fearing the prospect of facing other large armies and exhausted by years of campaigning, Alexander's army mutinied at the Hyphasis River (Beas), refusing to march farther east. This river thus marks the easternmost extent of Alexander's conquests.

Plutarch:

"As for the Macedonians, however, their struggle with Porus blunted their courage and stayed their further advance into India. For having had all they could do to repulse an enemy who mustered only twenty thousand infantry and two thousand horse, they violently opposed Alexander when he insisted on crossing the river Ganges also, the width of which, as they learned, was thirty-two furlongs, its depth a hundred fathoms, while its banks on the further side were covered with multitudes of men-at-arms and horsemen and elephants. For they were told that the kings of the Ganderites and Praesii were awaiting them with eighty thousand horsemen, two hundred thousand footmen, eight thousand chariots, and six thousand war elephants."


Alexander tried to persuade his soldiers to march farther, but his general Coenus pleaded with him to change his opinion and return; the men, he said, "longed to again see their parents, their wives and children, their homeland". Alexander eventually agreed and turned south, marching along the Indus. Along the way his army conquered the Malhi (in modern day Multan) and other Indian tribes and sustained an injury during the siege.

Own created History of lies and fake information by the whites. A butcher like Alexander would give a territory to a lost king and then his man will revolt against him for not stopping because soldier who raped many women in the invasion, wanted to see wives?? Wow.

Our records say, he was brutally smashed to the grounds of Multan in Pakistan. And his generals and soldiers feared a counter attack with several thousand horsemen and elephants. Hence he tried to play diplomatic card of impressing Porus (Purshotam) to help him get out safely.

 

[As is - where is]

Own created History of lies and fake information by the whites. A butcher like Alexander would give a territory to a lost king and then his man will revolt against him for not stopping because soldier who raped many women in the invasion, wanted to see wives?? Wow.

It's a good strategy because the local populations will accept a local king and will be less likely to revolt.

It's described very clear on my post above. There were two main factors. The soldiers were:
1) exhausted by years of campaigning
2) afraid of the prospect of facing other large armies

Plutarch describes in detail that if Porus' army was able to cause such casualties to Alexander's army the soldiers didn't even want to think about the larger armies that they would be called to face further east.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

It's a good strategy because the local populations will accept a local king and will be less likely to revolt.

It's described very clear on my post above. There were two main factors. The soldiers were:
1) exhausted by years of campaigning
2) afraid of the prospect of facing other large armies

Plutarch describes in detail that if Porus' army was able to cause such casualties to Alexander's army the soldiers didn't even want to think about the larger armies that they would be called to face further east.

And his generals and soldiers feared a counter attack with several thousand horsemen and elephants. Hence he tried to play diplomatic card of impressing Porus (Purshotam) to help him get out safely after defeat it Hydapses

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

infusion of European blood during a "mixing event" at roughly the time of Alexander's conquests

Why hold onto the ''mixed-event''? There are many ethnicities who do not mix with others and I think it's kind of racist. Thankfully, the idea of Kashmiri only marriage is on the decline. My sister-in-law is from Punjab and another male cousin married to a Faislabadi.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This is big disrespect towards people of subcontinent and act of showing supremacy of a failed adventure of greeks and macedonians in the subcontinent.

This Alexander tried to change the genes and hereditary of every place he invaded. But after he was bashed by Purshotam(Porus) in Punjab region of Multan(now in Pakistan) he stopped his failed adventure out of fear. Later other empires from Indian side took back the territory. And greeks/macedonians were thrown out of the subcontinent into Iran.

Not quite. Alexander conquered all of modern Pakistan and although he wanted to go east into what is now India his troops refused. The Greeks were Not thrown out. After Alexander died ancient Pakistan came under control of the Gangetic based empire of Maurya however this did not last long. After some 25 years this part of Pakistan ( the area that is now Pakistan's capital Islamabad ) came under the control of Bactrian Greeks and the Gandhara Greeks flourished and left a rich legacy in Taxila where the impact of Hellenism can be seen in the ruins and coins found in the area.

Bactrian Greeks coins from Taxila, Pakistan.

Gandara, Sirkap, Pakistan. Greek influence can be seen.

Greco-Buddhist art - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Not quite. Alexander conquered all of modern Pakistan and although he wanted to go east into what is now India his troops refused. The Greeks were Not thrown out. After Alexander doed ancient Pakistan came under control of the Indian based empite of Maurya however this did not last long. After some 25 years this part of Pakistan ( the area that is now Pakistan's capital Islamabad ) came under the control of Bactrian Greeks and the Gandhara Greeks flourisged and left a rich legacy in Taxila where the impact of Hellenism can be seen in the ruins and coins found in the area.

Bactrian Greeks coins from Taxila, Pakistan.

Gandara, Sirkap, Pakistan. Greek influence can be seen.

I do not trust history created by the west in books, and this map existed for very short period of time, which was soon taken over by other empires of the subcontinent and they ruled for more than 1000 years. What as proof lied was some buddhist statutes in those regions and Indo.Iranian architecture

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Greeks in Ancient Pakistan
by Rafi Samad.

Alexander the Great of Macedonia established a vast empire in the 330s and 320s BC by storming across the globe from his northern Greek homeland as far as today’s Pakistan, where he spent three years before dying in Babylon in 323 on his return march to Greece at the age of 32. His premature death meant that his empire instantly fell apart, but also guaranteed Alexander’s own enduring unique fame, whether as Alexander or Sikander. After Alexander the Mauryans from Northern India dominated the area for a while, only to be replaced by descendants of Alexander’s soldiers who remained in the Bactrian region north of the Hindu Kush.
It was during the centuries that followed that what we now think of as Indus Greek culture flourished. It was of course a culture that brought together many different elements into a new synthesis, most exquisitely expressed in the masterpieces of Gandharan sculpture, which increasingly focused on Buddhist themes. It also produced work of the highest quality in coinage, in jewelry and in other fields, for example, town planning.
Alexander had chroniclers with him, so that in contrast to most earlier and many later empire builders, precise and reasonably reliable details of his life and campaigns survive, and for the later period there are works by Greek writers such as Megasthenes. These written sources add a whole new dimension to the silent evidence of numismatics, architecture and art.
Rafi Samad, an engineer by training, has carefully assembled all the available evidence, together with the work of specialist research scholars, to provide this straightforward account of the Greeks in the Indus region, for which he coins the term Indusland. After a general introduction, he proceeds chronologically from Alexander’s campaigns of 3274-324 BC to the philhellenic Scythian, Parthian and Kushan dynasties from about 85 BC to 490 AD. Further chapters discuss intellectual and religious interaction, the Greek influence on both architecture and Gandhara art, and finally trade and commerce.
The author has performed a valuable service in bringing together such scattered information. Some of the most useful parts of the book are effectively catalogued, for instance, of the Greek cities; the statues which show the development of Gandhara art; coins and some of the other finds from Taxila, the pre-eminent locus of Greek interaction with local cultures.
In the sections of the book devoted to Alexander, the focus is inevitably on his military campaigns and victories. This emphasis on the military aspects of the subject reflects the primary sources, since the contemporary writers focused almost entirely on the campaigns and the regions through which they and the army passed. Samad is cool-headed about the identification of various uncertain locations, a topic which has sometimes roused pathological levels of scholarly passion.
Nevertheless the concentration on Alexander is excessive, and reflects a more general problem. Samad fails to distinguish sufficiently between the impact and importance of overlordship on the one hand, and the longer term quotidian dynamic of different communities, many of them initially traders rather than soldiers, living and interacting together. The book is therefore rather less than the sum of its several excellent parts, since solid detail in the specific chapters is sometimes contradicted is facile general statements elsewhere. The author knows but forgets that there were already Greek traders in the area before Alexander arrived. Trade and commerce, which ought to be central, only appear as a short final chapter.
A similar reluctance to look at previous or wider contexts is apparent in chapters 8 and 10, which deal with interaction in philosophy and religion. Many of the archaeologists and historians whom Samad acknowledges are western, and he is certainly right in perceiving an earlier imperial bias which claimed the flow of enlightenment to have been entirely a one-way process.
But his own efforts are weakened by unconscious acceptance of the old imperial belief, wrong on all counts, that the Greeks were the forerunners of the Roman and British empires, and therefore entirely in an anachronistic western camp. Thus he opens chapter 10 by claiming that they had been isolated and unaware of higher religious concepts until Alexander’s eastward campaigns, but then admits that contact with the Achaemenid empire had started the process three centuries earlier. As today, processes of cultural contact and exchange took place through many different channels.
The book is copiously illustrated, although many of the pictures and all of the maps are smudgy. It is also let down by poor copy-editing. Greek and Latin endings for personal names are used indiscriminately, as are upper and lower case for terms such as Silk Route. Such flaws are not only irritating but undermine the credibility of what is in fact a useful book.

Greeks in Pakistan.

The invasion of Alexander the Great of the territories,which now constitute Pakistan ,was an event of great significance not only because of the extraordinary nature of the military expenditure undertaken by one of the worlds greatest conquerors, but also because it was the first time that direct contacts were established between Europe & South Asia. Alexanders invasion opend up a new era of mutually benificial trade and cultural exchanges between the two regions,more than 2,000 miles apart.

The fairly intense interaction between ancient South Asia and Greece,which commenced with the invasion of invasion of Alexander in fourth century BC, continued for almost seven centuries till the middle of 5th century AD. After Alexander it was the Seleucid and Bactrian Greeks settled in West and Central Asia,who continued to interact from across the borders,before the Bactrian/Indus Greeks conquered Gandhara and Punjab, Ancient Pakistan in the begining of 1st century BC.The Indus Greeks were succeeded by the philhellenic Scythian,Parthians and Kushans,who continued to rule Ancient Pakistan,till the middle of 5th century AD

During this extensive period,the nature and extent of Greek involvement and the impact,which the interactions produced in Ancient South Asia and Greece,has been the subject of much controversy.This book incorporates the latest material,which has become available through the research of international scholars.This material has been critically evaluated and supplemented by the author´s own critical analysis of the Hellenistic influences on local art and the influence of eastren Philosophy and religions on the intellectual movments in Greece and elsewhere in Europe.

The book also seeks to identify places and regions mentioned by Alexander´s Generals in their accounts of his military campaigns in the territories,which now constitute Pakistan.It provides latest information on the Alexandrias and the cities founded by the Indus Greeks in this region and on the cantoments and military posts established by Alexander.

A modern reminder of Pakistan's connection with Alexander's Greeks.

I do not trust history created by the west in books, and this map existed for very short period of time, which was soon taken over by other empires of the subcontinent and they ruled for more than 1000 years. What as proof lied was some buddhist statutes in those regions and Indo.Iranian architecture

I have done lots of reading on the subject. What do you trust? Legends and myth spun by revisionist Hindutwa Indians ?

@Shan-e-ibrahim

Why do I get a feeling your a Indian ...?