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Pakistanis debate real enemy: girl-shooting Taliban or drone-firing US

mera ek Q hai mamas

agar ye ladki US drones se mar jati toh kya itna hangama hota ???

aisa mat samjho k mai taliban ko support de raha hu

Agar Taliban ka hath sa bhe mar jate tu itna shor ni hota...

Never forget that India was colonized, exploited and conquered with the help of no other than Indian people themselves. The reason?? Stupid royalties and mogouls fighting among themselves and using religion to hold masses backward. The same applies to Ottoman empire, they used religious authorities to legitimize their actions until the population turned too dumb to accept everything. The society eventually fell into a backward cult very similar to what is happening in Pakistan until a strong nationalist leader.

Ideologies have always failed to unify people over a long term be is Europe, Arabworld or Asia.
 
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Blame yourself, when bullets will be fired people will be killed. Those on the trigger are just happy to shoot. Look into the underlying factors of what invited this drone attacks. Seriously is the writ of state so weak that is cannot control a few rag tag fighter proxies it created for a specific purpose? the talibaboons think just because they defeated Soviet union with american weapons and tactical assistance of CIA + ISI, they are now strong enough to conquer the world with bare hands. The entertainment by mullahs just gives them an endless argument of legitimate cause.

You cant shoot down the drones without proving that you have a better and much more effective strategy to counter the menace. Doing so without the later is just declaration of war and next time instead of drones you will see American F16 flying high in the air. Let me know if PAF has the arsenal and balls of to face them?

For years, the youth is being brainwashed in the madrassah about divine help and whole bunch of nonsense...???

Then that means the United States is a psychopath? Even serial killers have had some injustices done to them. Do we go around saying "Aww poor serial killer, let him kill a few innocent people, what a killing spree or two, after all the society brought it upon itself". No you put him down.

If you are afraid of the serial killer than close down your shop. Close down Pakistan, if you are going to do everything someone makes you do by the gun, then you're not a country, declare yourself a colony of the United States. Btw, you have no right to decide upon whether or not we should fear the F16s, this has to be put to the vote of the Parliament. If the Parliament says no, take out the drones, the drones should be taken out, if the Parliament says bow to America, then you bow to it.

It would be more appropriate to ask this question of the Government of Pakistan, for its de facto acquiescence to the attacks by failing to raise the issue internationally at the UN and ICJ, and its own failures to extend its writ to the lawless tribal regions, are the real issues.

Obviously thats whom I'm questioning here, either they accept the drone strikes as their own, then we'll deal with them on how can they accept it without Parliamentary approval, or they act on the fact that they are against it, then shoot them down. The debate here is with the drone loyalists among our own nation.

Why is there not a massive rally on Consitution Avenue demanding these answers?

If you recall there are many such plans. Given there's only one person who can do it and its election season, hes probably biding his time. Constitution avenue has also been declared illegal for Jalsay, so doing anything there would invite a criminal case against you and hence debarr you from elections for 5 years.

Either after the elections that person will be in power or he'd then have nothing to lose to go ahead and do it.
 
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Obviously thats whom I'm questioning here, either they accept the drone strikes as their own, then we'll deal with them on how can they accept it without Parliamentary approval, or they act on the fact that they are against it, then shoot them down. The debate here is with the drone loyalists among our own nation.

That would be the appropriate way forward.

What needs to be kept in mind is that raising or lowering anti-Americanism within Pakistan is manipulated by certain agencies as a foreign policy instrument, but it is losing its effectiveness rapidly. Further, there is a real risk of losing control of this manipulation to the overall detriment of Pakistan.
 
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If you recall there are many such plans. Given there's only one person who can do it and its election season, hes probably biding his time. Constitution avenue has also been declared illegal for Jalsay, so doing anything there would invite a criminal case against you and hence debarr you from elections for 5 years.

Either after the elections that person will be in power or he'd then have nothing to lose to go ahead and do it.

I was referring to Constitution Avenue as symbolism for the corridors of power in Pakistan, but your points are taken well.

If I understand you correctly to respond, it is unlikely that Imran Khan would win without the same kind of khaki shenanigans as many times previously, and further unlikely that there would be any substantive changes in policies, given that the present and future policies are made outside Parliament.
 
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Blame yourself, when bullets will be fired people will be killed. Those on the trigger are just happy to shoot. Look into the underlying factors of what invited this drone attacks. Seriously is the writ of state so weak that is cannot control a few rag tag fighter proxies it created for a specific purpose? the talibaboons think just because they defeated Soviet union with american weapons and tactical assistance of CIA + ISI, they are now strong enough to conquer the world with bare hands. The entertainment by mullahs just gives them an endless argument of legitimate cause.

All your posts are based on stupid assumptions. Assumption that there was any sort of terrorism at all, Talibaan were/are not terrorists infact they are freedom fighters who are doing whatever they can to protect their land and to repeal invading forces whether it be Soviets or the US. We all know the real outcome of the efforts of these rag tags.



You cant shoot down the drones without proving that you have a better and much more effective strategy to counter the menace. Doing so without the later is just declaration of war and next time instead of drones you will see American F16 flying high in the air. Let me know if PAF has the arsenal and balls of to face them?

PAF does not have anything that can take on USAF or USN, However the reactions....and my emphasis on the word 'reactions'.......of GoP can escalate to match US actions. If the USAF/USN violates our air space and carries out attacks then the bases where these jets take off from can be taken out including USN carrier battle groups. And so on.....it just depends how patriotic the leadership of the GoP is. I would not accept a single attack on my country be it from the India or any other country.



For years, the youth is being brainwashed in the madrassah about divine help and whole bunch of nonsense...???

Some are, yes. But do not be the ignorant who puts all Madrassah's on par with those that are deliberately dishing out hate mongers from within and without (in people like you)!
 
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It would be more appropriate to ask this question of the Government of Pakistan, for its de facto acquiescence to the attacks by failing to raise the issue internationally at the UN and ICJ, and its own failures to extend its writ to the lawless tribal regions, are the real issues.

Why is there not a massive rally on Consitution Avenue demanding these answers?

You have been told on many occasions before that the tribal areas were never 'lawless'! Perhaps it's time you stopped being a ....., you know what I mean.

These areas have been governed by tribal laws that have existed for decades, if not centuries and they do not appreciate interference. Their laws may make no sense to you or to me but that does not mean we forcefully implement our system on them.
 
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You have been told on many occasions before that the tribal areas were never 'lawless'! Perhaps it's time you stopped being a ....., you know what I mean.

These areas have been governed by tribal laws that have existed for decades, if not centuries and they do not appreciate interference. Their laws may make no sense to you or to me but that does not mean we forcefully implement our system on them.

You are confusing tribal customs and culture for LAW. There is a huge difference between the two.
 
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....... These activities fool stupid Pakistanis in to pressuring the Government to begin a military operation on their own land, to make their own people hostile towards the country and the Army.
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There is so much misinformation and so much Jih@di cr@p in your post, but I am going to focus on one.


Oh Bhai meray,

No civi can pressure Zardari to begin military ops. None!

All military ops are planned and arranged in GHQ. So you my dear sir have no idea about Pakistan.

The only thing Zardari government provides is the much-needed political cover so that our army is not dragged into mud by Jih@di media and people like you and local and international psycos (both Jih@di and lefties).


Secondly, our military has conducted ops in Swat, Malakand, South Wazirastan and local population despite of the inconvenience, did not oppose it, and instead welcomed it.

So you Sir are sitting somewhere on Mars, or at least out of Pakistan, because you have no idea about Pakistanis situation on the ground.

Among our military, we have now have a clear divide.

Young turks, young guns the captains, the majors and the colonels are ready to go and clear up the mess.

However some of the old generals serving and retired are opposing the ops against Talibaboons, why? because these old generals are still stuck in cold war era politics.

Who cares about 2-bit Mullah Qazi and their closet sympathizer like Imran Khan.

I tell you that a revolution is coming. Young officers like captains and majors are giving their lives everyday and so are the soldiers. While old generals are sitting in their comfy mess halls reliving Islamism of 30 years ago.

And everytime a young captain gives the ultimate sacrifice, 5 more are ready to take his place. Knowing fully well that so many turncoats like Taliban Khan are rallying the $tupid educated elite against the very soldiers who are dying so that we all can live and our country doesn't turn into a tribal Islamist land like Afghanistan, or Somalia, or Yemen, or god forbid African tribal land like Sierra Leon.

Old generals and fake revolutionaries like Taliban Khan are on their way out. And so are the Islamists like Qazi and Mulla diesel and Hameed bulbul. All of them.

Soon our Pakistan will be sovereign, ALL of it including FATA. Then anyone coming over the border will have no reason to be here illegally. No fing faghani and no RAW agent $tupid enough to get his @rse kicked, and the treacherous goons like Mullee Radio will going to get their head chopped off).


Our motherland Pakistan Zindabad

and Taliban Khan, Hameed bulbul, Mullah radios and Ayatullahs murdabad.
 
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These areas have been governed by tribal laws that have existed for decades, if not centuries and they do not appreciate interference. Their laws may make no sense to you or to me but that does not mean we forcefully implement our system on them.

As long as tribals keep their laws to themselves there is no problem to anyone.But when these tribals start harbouring jihadis from Arabia,Chechnia,uzbekistan,Xingiang and god only knows where else and involve themselves or these harbored terrorists in conducting attacks afghanistan,Dont expect Afghan Govt to say "Oh its all tribal customs..These guys are doing this for centuries...so let it be".NATO and afghan govt will want pakistan govt to take action against its territory being uses as militant sanctuary..When Pak govt says those areas are not under the writ of pak govt,others have no option but to take actions themselves,and they are just doing that.Here lies the importance of pakistan govt to establish the writ of govt there..Or else they will have no voice to object drone strike..

These areas have been governed by tribal laws that have existed for decades, if not centuries and they do not appreciate interference. Their laws may make no sense to you or to me but that does not mean we forcefully implement our system on them.

As long as tribals keep their laws to themselves there is no problem to anyone.But when these tribals start harbouring jihadis from Arabia,Chechnia,uzbekistan,Xingiang and god only knows where else and involve themselves or these harbored terrorists in conducting attacks afghanistan,Dont expect Afghan Govt to say "Oh its all tribal customs..These guys are doing this for centuries...so let it be".NATO and afghan govt will want pakistan govt to take action against its territory being uses as militant sanctuary..When Pak govt says those areas are not under the writ of pak govt,others have no option but to take actions themselves,and they are just doing that.Here lies the importance of pakistan govt to establish the writ of govt there..Or else they will have no voice to object drone strike..
 
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As long as tribals keep their laws to themselves there is no problem to anyone.But when these tribals start harbouring jihadis from Arabia,Chechnia,uzbekistan,Xingiang and god only knows where else and involve themselves or these harbored terrorists in conducting attacks afghanistan,Dont expect Afghan Govt to say "Oh its all tribal customs..These guys are doing this for centuries...so let it be".NATO and afghan govt will want pakistan govt to take action against its territory being uses as militant sanctuary..When Pak govt says those areas are not under the writ of pak govt,others have no option but to take actions themselves,and they are just doing that.Here lies the importance of pakistan govt to establish the writ of govt there..Or else they will have no voice to object drone strike..

Perhaps you should decide whether it was these tribals that began hostilities or the other side. That could determine the real terrorist.
 
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You have been told on many occasions before that the tribal areas were never 'lawless'! Perhaps it's time you stopped being a ....., you know what I mean.

These areas have been governed by tribal laws that have existed for decades, if not centuries and they do not appreciate interference. Their laws may make no sense to you or to me but that does not mean we forcefully implement our system on them.
Then why Pakistan wants them to be under them, let them be independent.. writ of the state should be followed if you want them to be called as yours.. otherwise it is nothing but having two different set of laws, which is as abominable as it can get..
 
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Perhaps you should decide whether it was these tribals that began hostilities or the other side. That could determine the real terrorist.

Drones started pounding FATA only after the tribals started sheltering jihadis who cross border to attack afghanistan and return..Correct me if i am mistaken.
 
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There is a debate going on in regard to a statement made by Imran Khan on the 16th of October:

‘We have local affiliates and supporters. Sure, I can give big statements against the Taliban but that would make them Taliban targets.’

Imran Khan evidently thinks the security of his party workers is a legitimate enough reason not to take stand against Pakistani Taliban’s terrorism. But, I don’t think fear for the safety of his party’s workers is the primary reason he has constantly shied away from condemning terrorists, and prefers to rage against foreign and Pakistani forces instead. More importantly, I think that:

1) Imran Khan truly believes the Taliban bear at most a minimum portion of the blame; and,
2) Since the vast majority of Pakistanis prefer to blame the army or the Americans (instead of examining their own social, cultural or religious flaws) his rhetoric is politically expedient.

In the face of mounting moral and logical criticism from the small but noisy Westernized class (spurred by the Malala attack) he was, however, forced into a corner, and was—like all stubborn people incapable of self-correction—grasping at straws. Consequently we have this ill thought out statement. What is surprising is that he has implicitly admitted that it’s not morality but fear that dictates his political rhetoric.

I think criticism directed at him in light of this is legitimate.

I would like to address a counter-argument made by one of his supporters. Mr. Kasuri related an incident in which a burglar held him at gun-point and demanded entry to his house. Mr. Kasuri refused but reflected in his article that he would have agreed had the gun been pointed at his family. He then attempts to draw a parallel between his selfless concern for his family and that of Imran Khan’s purported concern for his party members.

Though I applaud Mr. Kasuri for his bravery, his attempt to equate his potential personal circumstances on that day to Imran Khan’s political posturing is completely flawed. The reason for this is simple:

Imran Khan is a politician aspiring to ultimate public office whose policies affect the safety and prosperity of citizens in the whole country; whereas Mr. Kasuri is simply a husband whose responsibility that day would have been only to his wife. Complying or not complying with the criminal’s hypothetical demand would have been a circumstantial decision with absolutely no bearing on anyone save himself and any family in the immediate proximity; not even on that particular criminal’s ability to harm others some other time. However if Mr. Kasuri was to allow harm to befall another family despite having the power to prevent such harm simply because inaction spares his family then I would have called him a coward, among other things.

A more appropriate metaphor would be that of a police officer or army commander in a position of authority, leading policemen or soldiers who—like the officer—are there because they want that particular responsibility. If such a person decided to avoid a band of Taliban militants entering Peshawar for fear of his unit taking casualties then that would be considered cowardice and dereliction of duty because, firstly, it would be against an implicit code of soldiery; and secondly, because those Taliban would then discharge their violence on others in the city, probably civilians. Thousands of such Pakistani officers and jawans have suffered injury, disfigurement, death and not to mention mutilation at the hands of these militants exactly because they are not cowards, and because they know and honor their responsibility as public servants, even when they get little or no recognition from the public whose lives they undoubtedly save. Is it too much to ask that politicians also inject a bit of selfless morality into their otherwise opportunist politics, especially of a politician who claims to be so uncompromisingly righteous? After all, don’t Imran Khan and his ilk aspire to be the ultimate commanders of Pakistan’s armies? One can’t help but wonder about the point of having commanders with this level of moral courage.

No one is asking Imran Khan and his followers to go fight the militants physically. But as an authoritative figure in the all-important political realm his refusal to make a stand against terrorism undermines the war against the TTP in a critical way. Ironically, Mr. Kasuri tries to justify Imran Khan’s refusal to stand up to militants by claiming it is because the army cannot provide his party sufficient security. Well, the army cannot provide anyone (including themselves) such security since:

• Doing so would require preemptive action against militant infrastructure (training camps, bomb making factories, hideouts, etc) which the military cannot take; because,
• Such action is not feasible without widespread and unwavering public support which, despite the tens of thousands of Pakistani lives lost, is missing; because,
• Public figures like Imran Khan—and the leaders of the PPP, ANP, PML-N, MMA and JI—refuse to invest politically in the war for reasons of nativity, expedience and cowardice.

Instead, politicians feed confusing, counter-productive narratives that further undermine the military’s ability to act, by blaming the army for:

• Supporting the militants through its secret intelligence services for ideological reasons; or,
• Encouraging militancy by inflicting casualties in operations for ‘dollars from America’; and,
• Even a mixture of the above two contradictory claims.

In other words the army cannot provide security to anyone, including the PTI, because Imran Khan undermines their ability to do so, and NOT the other way around. Pakistan’s army chief has not only explicitly owned up to the war on numerous occasions but is pleading for political backing on a regular basis. That is, unfortunately, beyond the capacity of the politicians who have chosen to stick to their sickeningly banal and myopic rhetoric.

PTI supporters such as Mr. Kasuri like insist their leader does take a stand against terrorism by quoting his statements like ‘those responsible for the attack on Malala are unworthy of human beings let alone Muslims’. I find this to be disingenuous. We know he is not taking a stand against the TTP through these verbal acrobatics but is, instead, being entirely self-serving. He is merely:

1) Dodging criticism by seemingly condemning an indefensible act of barbarity; while,
2) In actuality feeding the poisonous conspiracy theory that the real culprits were ‘not Muslims’ but CIA or ISI agents out to malign the Taliban; thus,
3) Protecting himself and his followers from the wrath of the Taliban who are unlikely to attack someone who refuses to believe their organization can do any wrong even when they themselves have admitted to it; and instead practically acts as their biggest propaganda mouthpiece in regard to their problem with drones and military operations.

Lastly, a legitimate question is if Imran Khan would apply this moral logic to the fight against government dictators. Musharraf was hardly the most brutal of Pakistani leaders so perhaps that explains why the PTI was quite willing to campaign against his government so voraciously without fear of backlash. But what if it were Z. A. Bhutto or Zia-ul-Haq—both known to use widespread violence against their political opponents—or maybe some other brutal authoritarian leader in the future? Would Imran Khan give the following statement?

‘We have local affiliates and supporters. Sure, I can give big statements against [insert dictatorial regime] but that would make them government targets’.

I don’t think so. Then why is the safety of his supporters only a concern in relation to the Taliban? Because unlike the Musharraf regime or any other potential authoritarian government the Taliban do not stand in the way of him and high office. This means I don’t consider Imran Khan a coward, atleast no more than I do other politicians in Pakistan, but his selfish opportunism does make him something else, something worse. He constantly attacks politicians on their lack of morality, when he is evidently on the same moral plain himself, and that makes him a hypocrite.

Why do I write this article about Imran Khan and not the others? Because the other politicians are what they are: barely educated, feudalistic, violent, morally bankrupt thugs for the most part. But Imran Khan is destroying my hopes for the rising middle class and the new generation.
 
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Agar Taliban ka hath sa bhe mar jate tu itna shor ni hota...

Never forget that India was colonized, exploited and conquered with the help of no other than Indian people themselves. The reason?? Stupid royalties and mogouls fighting among themselves and using religion to hold masses backward. The same applies to Ottoman empire, they used religious authorities to legitimize their actions until the population turned too dumb to accept everything. The society eventually fell into a backward cult very similar to what is happening in Pakistan until a strong nationalist leader.

Ideologies have always failed to unify people over a long term be is Europe, Arabworld or Asia.

@somebzoo: I admire for your sane post...And one classic example how a monster wheather is good for me or not always eat up the master is LTTE...India created LTTE...what has happened? LTTE eliminated one of the brightest Indian young leader....So exmaples are plenty that needs to be seen...If you ignore then donot blame the histroy...
 
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Then why Pakistan wants them to be under them, let them be independent.. writ of the state should be followed if you want them to be called as yours.. otherwise it is nothing but having two different set of laws, which is as abominable as it can get..

Different states can enjoy independent laws under a single constitution. Take the US as an example, they have different laws for different states which are under 1 constitution. But the land belongs to the US, still.
 
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