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Pakistani Soldiers Wounded in New Kashmir Confrontation With India

says the racist redneck kkk guy how ironic
Finally, a Pakistani who proclaims that I am NOT an Indian! Success at last! :woot:

Of course I'm none of the things qamar1990 accuses me of. But I'm not necessarily better than every Pakistani, either. I'm not the one born into a culture and nation with all these problems. I'm not the one facing most of the difficult and profound moral choices discussed here. I'm not the guy risking his neck every day with Baluchi separatists, "Islamic" terrorists, or criminals on the street or as superiors.

I respect that there are limits to people's courage - or foolishness. Yet when drastic improvement comes to Pakistani it will be the people who are courageous and foolish and who paved the route to success who will get the credit, not I.
 
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@TheRafael00000 I could give you and the poster who thanked yo a fitting reply but I'm refraining, coz I dont want to stoop down to your level. Any was I'm reporting your post. :angel:
 
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What, you automatically believe what the Pakistani Army says about the incident? As far as I know by the time a Pakistani is in his late teens he's already well aware that he hears a lot of lies from Pakistani politicians and military leaders about events and conditions he can see for himself. Why would you think they would be any more truthful about events far away from you? Why aren't you, as a patriotic Pakistani, calling for an independent investigation of this incident?

Hey juda why do you keep poking your needle nose into these LoC related threads? Go worry about your furloughs or your border with Mexico or something. Are you really that desperate for attention?

Not people but soldiers.Theres a difference between people and soldiers.IA has every right to kill pakistani soldiers after the recent incident.

Well two can play at that game then. If indian media is to actually be believed then 5 out of 6 soldiers of a "unit" were killed by soldiers who magically crossed 5 km into iOK and whacked them.

The 6th indian soldier with magical abilities of his own managed to drop his rifle, run and hide in a bush without being detected either

If we were day dreamers with vivid imagination like you bhartis then we'd have already scripted a low budget flick about it the way you guys are known to do :laugh: :laugh:
 
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It's perfectly logical to blame Pakistan for provoking border incidents. It is not an undeserved prejudice. It may be unfair to do so but it is not, given the record, unjust.

No, I don't grasp your logic here: "It's an old conflict so you can't blame reputation". That doesn't make sense: it's an old and continuing conflict and there's no evidence nor reason to think that Pakistani military leaders' command, motivation, and methods have changed.

Democracy isn't about choosing princes but about holding leaders to account. I don't think Pakistanis grasp that very well but I think that realization is growing, don't you agree?

I think the Turks and Egyptians here have some things to say about that.

I'm suspicious of the Indians, too. But I'm also aware of the standard Pakistani response, "You can't blame us, you have no proof!" - which implies that the Pakistani mind-set is that as long as no proof exists Pakistan should be allowed to get away with it and no Pakistani will ever investigate such matters. Contrast that with the Indian approach of investigating recent alleged border incidents with China: the ground incursions were real but the airspace violations were mythical and the fault was Indian for riling up tensions.

I'm doing my best but I can't, in showing you the truth, entirely protect you from feeling humiliated. If you're not in the military it isn't your fault, though you should pursue the investigation: if you are in the military, you need to think carefully about whether your loyalty lies with your superiors or with your country. (It can't help that Pakistani soldiers have sworn different oaths depending on what class and year they graduated, as the Supreme Court noticed a year or two back.)

No , the last thing it is ' is being perfectly logical ' . Maybe , you should edit your first post in the thread talking about taking ' sides ' and exhibiting ' bias ' , when all I see is the same in your posts . Given the record , this wont be the first time , the Kashmiris living on this side of the border have been killed by the Indian forces .

What I cant understand is that how the Second Kashmir War is used in a argument to give ' guilty verdict ' to Pakistan . Why bring your ' perceived reputation ' and ' past history ' biases , when you didn't want anyone to automatically believe something without proper investigation ? There's a reason why the methods and thinking of the Pakistani military leadership and common Pakistani hasn't changed , because the others aren't ready to change their aproach .

I know well the concept of democracy . What you dont understand , is the Pakistani politics and the nature and MO's of politicians . Strangely , the realization why the politicals leaders are inept in managing the country and corrupt to the core , is growing very fast , seeing the not-so-fruitful results of two successive democratic regimes now .

Apples and Oranges , there . I talked about military having a certain leash on this ' democracy ' .

Yet I never heard a word against them from you , for reasons quite apparent . You were quite sure from your very first post that Pakistan , without any evidence , is at fault here . Because , until yesterday , Indian defense minister wasn't even sure if it was the ' Pakistan Army ' , he would only get the enlightenment today after the massive uproar at the Parliament . The version has changed three times until then because its strange that PA units move 5 KM inside the other side of the LOC . The same standard response is true for the other side too , not just Pakistan . Doesn't imply nothing , maybe you understand more than there really is , the simple point is bring the proof and then blame anyone . What should Pakistanis investigate there ? How Indians abducted and killed 4 residents of Azad Kashmir and got 5 soldiers killed in retaliation ?

You are doing your best to protect your hypocritical approach towards things , whilst blaming people of ' being biased ' and ' automatically believing things just because their Govt says so ' . Even the politicians are suspicious of the whole episode , despite the Prime Minister not being a big fan of the military . The Supreme Court remarks aren't considered verdicts or orders , I thought you would know that .
 
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Does Pakistan really need more wars to re-empower the military, steal away democracy, and reduce its citizens to mere subjects?

who is talking about wars? :laugh:

the military is already empowered and Pakistanis place huge trust in the military; and a democratic election (despite flaws) took place so your thinking is old and out-dated
 
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No , the last thing it is ' is being perfectly logical ' . Maybe , you should edit your first post in the thread talking about taking ' sides ' and exhibiting ' bias ' , when all I see is the same in your posts . Given the record , this wont be the first time , the Kashmiris living on this side of the border have been killed by the Indian forces .
Which has nothing to do with who provoked the incident by firing first.

You're raising a red herring here: I'm not passing judgment on who did what. I'm pointing out that the record of Pakistan means that it is not entitled to the benefit of doubt.

I know well the concept of democracy . What you dont understand , is the Pakistani politics and the nature and MO's of politicians . Strangely , the realization why the politicals leaders are inept in managing the country and corrupt to the core , is growing very fast , seeing the not-so-fruitful results of two successive democratic regimes now .
I'm the guy who is always saying Pakistan needs fifty Imran Khans not just one. Competent democratic government is built through competition. It is Pakistan's tragedy that its generals succumb to sweet evil whisperings and decide not to give democracy and democratic values time to work.

Apples and Oranges , there . I talked about military having a certain leash on this ' democracy ' -
The Turks believed they used to need and the Egyptians certainly believe it now. The military in Turkey was seen in the past and in Egypt today is seen as empowering democracy at the expense of militarism and tyranny. Whereas military rule in Pakistan promotes division, external and civil war, and extremism.

You are doing your best to protect your hypocritical approach towards things -
I'm pointing out that reasons to think more poorly of Pakistani than of India here are well-deserved. It's unfair of course because not only doesn't the Pakmil get appropriately blamed when it does bad it doesn't get appropriately praised when it does good. Solzhenitsyn pointed out that this was the problem the KGB suffered during Soviet times when its actions were similarly immune from review.

It's long past time that the Pakistani Army should be held accountable to civilians. My criticism will cease, I think, when Pakistan's parliament appoints and empowers an Inspector General that can investigate these and other matters. You're suffering from what Shuja Nawaz noted is a decades-long deliberate effort to exaggerate the image and heroics of the military to justify its place on top. So how can you be sure you're in a position to appreciate how accurate your opinion is or not?
 
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Solomon in our neighborhood you need a strong empowered army otherwise we would get eaten.

We are bordering Iran, Afghanistan and India who are hostile in some form or another.

We have no option but to empower the army for our own safety.

You know how the Indians are like, they will neither live or let live.
 
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Well two can play at that game then. If indian media is to actually be believed then 5 out of 6 soldiers of a "unit" were killed by soldiers who magically crossed 5 km into iOK and whacked them.

The 6th indian soldier with magical abilities of his own managed to drop his rifle, run and hide in a bush without being detected either

If we were day dreamers with vivid imagination like you bhartis then we'd have already scripted a low budget flick about it the way you guys are known to do :laugh: :laugh:

So according to you no one can escape an ambush and the 6th soldier should have been killed only...great logic.

just curious to know could you please tell me who lost aksai chin to china in parts from 1959 & fully by 1962 ? was it Burma ?

http://orbat.com/site/sinoindianwar/images/maps/aksai_polit_mod.png

The comparison was between Pakistan and India not China.Moreoever we lost Aksai Chin but gained Sikkim,Goa,Junagadh,Hyderabad..what about that?
 
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Hey juda why do you keep poking your needle nose into these LoC related threads? Go worry about your furloughs or your border with Mexico or something. Are you really that desperate for attention?



Well two can play at that game then. If indian media is to actually be believed then 5 out of 6 soldiers of a "unit" were killed by soldiers who magically crossed 5 km into iOK and whacked them.

The 6th indian soldier with magical abilities of his own managed to drop his rifle, run and hide in a bush without being detected either

If we were day dreamers with vivid imagination like you bhartis then we'd have already scripted a low budget flick about it the way you guys are known to do :laugh: :laugh:

a pakistani saying that?? strange.. :cuckoo:
 
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Which has nothing to do with who provoked the incident by firing first.

You're raising a red herring here: I'm not passing judgment on who did what. I'm pointing out that the record of Pakistan means that it is not entitled to the benefit of doubt.

I'm the guy who is always saying Pakistan needs fifty Imran Khans not just one. Competent democratic government is built through competition. It is Pakistan's tragedy that its generals succumb to sweet evil whisperings and decide not to give democracy and democratic values time to work.

The Turks believed they used to need and the Egyptians certainly believe it now. The military in Turkey was seen in the past and in Egypt today is seen as empowering democracy at the expense of militarism and tyranny. Whereas military rule in Pakistan promotes division, external and civil war, and extremism.

I'm pointing out that reasons to think more poorly of Pakistani than of India here are well-deserved. It's unfair of course because not only doesn't the Pakmil get appropriately blamed when it does bad it doesn't get appropriately praised when it does good. Solzhenitsyn pointed out that this was the problem the KGB suffered during Soviet times when its actions were similarly immune from review.

It's long past time that the Pakistani Army should be held accountable to civilians. My criticism will cease, I think, when Pakistan's parliament appoints and empowers an Inspector General that can investigate these and other matters. You're suffering from what Shuja Nawaz noted is a decades-long deliberate effort to exaggerate the image and heroics of the military to justify its place on top. So how can you be sure you're in a position to appreciate how accurate your opinion is or not?

Yeah , right after you said how it was perfectly logical to blame Pakistan for provoking border incidents . Hypocritical , much , again ? A biased man accusing others of being biased , ironic , huh ? :azn: As for the judgement , you already passed it in your earlier posts whilst accusing others of ' believing things blindly ' .

Imran Khan isn't doing well in the province , he's given the mandate to govern . Election promises are different thing , now its time to deliver instead of blaming the past all along for all the problems he's facing now and doing nothing to improve the situation . There's a reason why Pakistani public doesn't really like democracy and that reason is the past record of politicians . The army interferes when it sees that things are getting out of control and someone well needs to do something .

For now , the approach will remain the same . Democracy is functioning , but with a certain military leash . There's no military rule today and except for one , their record was still better than the political leaders .

You are pointing out the reasons , after giving the ' guilty ' verdict in your first post . I see , parts of my posts haven't been answered since they prove the things otherwise , instead of the ' automatically believe a version because of perceived reputation ' mode of operation of yours . Well , Pakistan military will always be blamed for NATO failures in Afghanistan , because thats more convenient for the coalition than accepting failures and the flawed approach in Afghanistan , nothing strange and nothing that we hope , will change . Otherwise , Islamabad used to be much-appreciated ally of the West after its success in Soviet war . Remember , victory has many fathers but defeat is an orphan . Its strong past time that first political leaders first present themselves for accountability , publicly and properly give the details of their assets , tell the nation of the corruption records they have made , learn to take responsibility of their actions and then ask the military leadership to be accountable to them . We aren't really waiting for your ' criticism ' to cease , seeing your hypocritical approaches , now are we ? Everyone else is biased , but you aren't somehow , right ? I know my military well , I know its history , I know its mistakes and blunders but then again I know the reasons to justify its place on top , as well .
 
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So according to you no one can escape an ambush and the 6th soldier should have been killed only...great logic.

Actually that is exactly what i am saying....why would they

a.) leave a witness

b.) risk turning back and have him run back to the rifle and radio he dropped to report "evil Pakistani faujis" taking out 5 of the counterparts in his "unit" and then shoot back at them as they "retreated"

does it make sense to you? You guys claim our troops have some super-human ability to cross that deep across into iOK un-detected -- so you seem to imply they were hell bent on killing indian just for the sake of it. Why let that one live?

great logic! But I'm not buying it at all. This is fabricated, and I will wait till indian provide one shred of evidence because your D.M. Antony going to Door-knab Goatwami on Times Now and saying "we have verified proof" etc. is just not cutting it.

Many Kashmiris are angry about indian occupation of Kashmir. It easily could've been a one-off incident or some form of retaliation. I remember in the papers a week back or so I saw this.


Indian troops cross LoC, kidnap 4 Kashmiris
 
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Actually that is exactly what i am saying....why would they

a.) leave a witness

b.) risk turning back and have him run back to the rifle and radio he dropped to report "evil Pakistani faujis" taking out 5 of the counterparts in his "unit" and then shoot back at them as they "retreated"

does it make sense to you? You guys claim our troops have some super-human ability to cross that deep across into iOK un-detected -- so you seem to imply they were hell bent on killing indian just for the sake of it. Why let that one live?

great logic!

Firstly it was .5 km and not 5 km.

Secondly the last time i checked not every Pakistani troop had a NVG and firefights are unpredictable so anything can happpen.We have had soldiers lying for 12 hours in jungles after having 3 bullets in their stomach and still surviving.
 
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