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Pakistani scholar Javed Jabbar schools Indian politician Mani Shankar on history of India

T


He is good in the modern era too.

Panchi Nadiya Pawan Ke jhonke
Koi Sarhad Na Inhe Roke

His son, Farhan, is useless though. Does not have even a fraction of his father's talent. However, Dil Chahta Hai which he has directed is one of my favorite films, but I only like it because of Aamir Khan. He is an exceptional actor, and an outstanding human being.
 
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However, Dil Chahta Hai which he has directed is one of my favorite films, but I only like it because of Aamir Khan.

Akshaye Khanna was good too, as a mature-in-sensibility man in love with a woman older than him in age. I don't know of any other Hindi film where this angle has been covered.

He is an exceptional actor, and an outstanding human being.

Other than Dil Chahta Hai I liked him in Ghajini and Ghulam.
 
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Indians are like the hijras at a wedding. They have to make noise dance and do their tamasha
What kind of weddings do you attend?

Jabbar though eloquent is just wrong. Pakistan was conceived as a "homeland for Indian Muslims" which saw Islamic identity as monolithic. It was not meant to be pluralistic. Infact, at every point it tried to impose the Islamic identity to strangle its own pluralism. The East Pakistanis wanted Bengali to be an equal language - this was denied.

That was the biggest difference between the approach of the two new states. Nehru was foresighted enough to celebrate the diversity.

Jabbar is right about the rest - British India was a patchwork of direct British controlled areas and 500 + princely states. So the modern nation state of India only came into being on Aug 15, 1947.
 
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...as a mature-in-sensibility man in love with a woman older than him in age. I don't know of any other Hindi film where this angle has been covered.

Back then, it was an EXCEPTION. Today it seems like a norm in not just Bollywood cinema but also Indian society.

I remember in my times, no young boy would normally go after Bhabhis or married women with children. Today's generation of Indian boys have zero concept of protocol and common sense (as we often see in this Central and South Asian sub-forum filled with Indian boys who live in their parent's basement. They're funny.)

I am not a saint, and was quite a tharki myself (still am, a little despite my marital status.) But today's Indian boys have absolutely no standards in women.

Other than Dil Chahta Hai I liked him in Ghajini and Ghulam.

I like many of his older performances such as Sarfarosh, Hum Hai Rahi Pyar Ke, Akele Hum Akele Tum. He's become a little bit rusty lately but that's not his fault. Today's Bollywood directors and scriptwriters and co-actors have absolutely no originality or capability to entertain. I see that Aamir does not do too many movies even now.

I like Shahrukh Khan also but many of his movies are CRAP. Unlike Aamir, he is not very selective. Still he has done some exceptional movies like Swades, Darr, Anjaam
 
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I like Shahrukh Khan also but many of his movies are CRAP. Unlike Aamir, he is not very selective. Still he has done some exceptional movies like Swades, Darr, Anjaam

Swades is good and I am told Darr is too. I have actually used the line - "Tu haan kar ya na kar, tu hai meri, Kiran". :D

I like many of his older performances such as Sarfarosh

Although Sarfarosh was good, all actors good including Mukesh Rishi as Inspector Salim, I feel it was targeting Ghulam Ali somehow.
 
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... all actors good including Mukesh Rishi as Inspector Salim, I feel it was targeting Ghulam Ali somehow.

I did like that Inspector Salim character. Yes, Naseeruddin Shah's character did resemble Ghulam Ali but what good is a movie that doesn't have a convincing villain.

I agree with you, our Pakistani friends here may not like Sarfarosh that much. It does bash Pakistan mildly, but nothing like today's crappy Bollywood Bahoobally movies. Any criticism should be done with class.


If anyone else other than Aamir Khan was the lead character in that movie, it would not been so successful. That is what I like about him, he can play so many variable characters/ Aamir Khan has even played a Pakistani character in Earth.
 
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@Shantanu_Left @jamahir

A well elucidated Pakistani view on our own identity.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

I just saw the debate on that link you shared. These are my observations:

1) The "moderator" was being a jahill which is typical of Indian presstitutes. Why was he interrupting Mr. Javed Jabbar so much, and not letting him finish his sentences? The moderators like him are the reason I don't watch any Indian media videos, except for a few exceptions like The Hindu, Telegraph etc. They are all a shame in the name of journalistic integrity.

2) The points argued by Mr. Jabbar are valid. As you would know, I have said those exact points here on this forum. But, the Indian audiences could not believe their ears. Even some Indian liberals like Mani Shankar Iyer do not like Pakistanis defending their own nation. At least not in public (in private he may be different). Now let us remember in India, the Sanghi news channels frequently depict Mani Shankar Aiyar as a Pakistan-supporter, a desh-drohi and a gaddar towards India.

Aiyar has been to that country many times. If there is one liberal they want to send to Pakistan first, it will be him. Of course, Mani Shankar is a representative of Congress, so he has to follow certain political compulsions. His actual private views might be very similar to mine. In fact, his frequent dalliances with Pakistan (and hugging of Pakistanis) has cost Congress party dearly in the past. As I said earlier, in India, if you are seen as a friend or well-wisher of Pakistan, then it automatically makes you an enemy of India. Look at the way I am being treated on this forum by my own countrymen, as an example. In the '90s, I studied at a fairly inclusive school in cosmopolitan Mumbai. We had lots of Hindus, Muslims, boys, girls, etc. But even then, Pakistan was taught to be the enemy. I remember a slogan that was sometimes used in the school parade ground: "Pakistan ka jo yaar hai, wo desh ka gaddar hai, gaddar hai.." (whoever is friend of Pakistan, is a traitor of India). However, even as a schoolchild, I never accepted that kind of stupid slogan. Outside the school, most people I grew up with weren't anti-Pakistan. Many Pakistani actors, actresses, singers, would often come for concerts or work in Bollywood movies, just a few hundred meters away from my home. Also I once personally met a very youngish Shoaib Akhtar as a teenager even though I'm not a cricket fan. In this light, I feel Mani Shankar Aiyar was only trying to be diplomatic. His private views might be very different, otherwise he wouldn't keep going to Pakistan frequently.

So, in short, I would have expected Mr. Jabbar to be aware of Mani Shankar's compulsions, and not lash out at him. He should have instead schooled that G.D. Bakshi which I would have cheered.

3) G. D. Bakshi is of course, full of shite. He's a lapdog of Narendra Modi, not even worth discussing. I don't even consider him human.

4) Javed Akhtar has a different angle. His points are valid, he doesn't want to see India become a religion-dominated country like Pakistan is. Javed Akhtar is an agnostic Muslim, and absolutely secular like me. So, his views are somewhat similar to mine. Of course, he is forced to bash Pakistan because as I said, in India, you can't simultaneously be seen as a friend of Pakistan, and loyal to India. Especially not when you're a Muslim. As @xeuss would also agree, it's harder for Indian Muslims to support Pakistan than for Hindus.

these Hindutvadis might hate Mani Shankar Aiyer or someone like me, at least they know we are "on their side." They have this mistaken notion that they can perhaps, "reform" us. We don't have to prove it! Unfortunately, for some Indian Muslims in Javed Akhtar's or Asauddin Owaisi's position, they have to constantly prove that they are loyal to India.
 
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Who told you that, except for the Hindutva gangs ?

The Mughals and co. were rulers like any other, but the first three did much to make India their home.

All the Indians at my work (especially the ones from Gujarat, Mumbai, and UP). Gujaratis are the worse, their hatred is so obvious. One of the Gujrati guy was telling me that if it wasn't for the invaders Afghans, I (as in me) would still be Hindu and how much he hates Jinnah. I replied to him that I am the people that invaded (I am Pukhtoon) so i would not have been a Hindu and I love Jinnah for separating us from dumbasses like you.

Punjabis are by far the most friendly, it doesn't matter if they are Sikh or Hindus, they are just more interested in having fun and enjoying life.
 
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The fact most Pakistani and Aryan India speak the same languages derived from Sanskrit , to the point they can easily converse today, is suggestive of common origins?
In fact Southern India and NE are co-opted India , but todays Pakistan seem to be the historical India of old .
 
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@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

I just saw the debate on that link you shared. These are my observations:

1) The "moderator" was being a jahill which is typical of Indian presstitutes. Why was he interrupting Mr. Javed Jabbar so much, and not letting him finish his sentences? The moderators like him are the reason I don't watch any Indian media videos, except for a few exceptions like The Hindu, Telegraph etc. They are all a shame in the name of journalistic integrity.

2) The points argued by Mr. Jabbar are valid. As you would know, I have said those exact points here on this forum. But, the Indian audiences could not believe their ears. Even some Indian liberals like Mani Shankar Iyer do not like Pakistanis defending their own nation. At least not in public (in private he may be different). Now let us remember in India, the Sanghi news channels frequently depict Mani Shankar Aiyar as a Pakistan-supporter, a desh-drohi and a gaddar towards India.

Aiyar has been to that country many times. If there is one liberal they want to send to Pakistan first, it will be him. Of course, Mani Shankar is a representative of Congress, so he has to follow certain political compulsions. His actual private views might be very similar to mine. In fact, his frequent dalliances with Pakistan (and hugging of Pakistanis) has cost Congress party dearly in the past. As I said earlier, in India, if you are seen as a friend or well-wisher of Pakistan, then it automatically makes you an enemy of India. Look at the way I am being treated on this forum by my own countrymen, as an example. In the '90s, I studied at a fairly inclusive school in cosmopolitan Mumbai. We had lots of Hindus, Muslims, boys, girls, etc. But even then, Pakistan was taught to be the enemy. I remember a slogan that was sometimes used in the school parade ground: "Pakistan ka jo yaar hai, wo desh ka gaddar hai, gaddar hai.." (whoever is friend of Pakistan, is a traitor of India). However, even as a schoolchild, I never accepted that kind of stupid slogan. Outside the school, most people I grew up with weren't anti-Pakistan. Many Pakistani actors, actresses, singers, would often come for concerts or work in Bollywood movies, just a few hundred meters away from my home. Also I once personally met a very youngish Shoaib Akhtar as a teenager even though I'm not a cricket fan. In this light, I feel Mani Shankar Aiyar was only trying to be diplomatic. His private views might be very different, otherwise he wouldn't keep going to Pakistan frequently.

So, in short, I would have expected Mr. Jabbar to be aware of Mani Shankar's compulsions, and not lash out at him. He should have instead schooled that G.D. Bakshi which I would have cheered.

3) G. D. Bakshi is of course, full of shite. He's a lapdog of Narendra Modi, not even worth discussing. I don't even consider him human.

4) Javed Akhtar has a different angle. His points are valid, he doesn't want to see India become a religion-dominated country like Pakistan is. Javed Akhtar is an agnostic Muslim, and absolutely secular like me. So, his views are somewhat similar to mine. Of course, he is forced to bash Pakistan because as I said, in India, you can't simultaneously be seen as a friend of Pakistan, and loyal to India. Especially not when you're a Muslim. As @xeuss would also agree, it's harder for Indian Muslims to support Pakistan than for Hindus.

these Hindutvadis might hate Mani Shankar Aiyer or someone like me, at least they know we are "on their side." They have this mistaken notion that they can perhaps, "reform" us. We don't have to prove it! Unfortunately, for some Indian Muslims in Javed Akhtar's or Asauddin Owaisi's position, they have to constantly prove that they are loyal to India.

Wow, a very in-depth analysis by you. I for one am glad to have varied viewpoints like yours on this forum. For too long we have been seeing only the Hindutva cadres on the forum and 'secular' Indians who defend them.

I hope more sensible Indians join this forum, we Pakistanis could use some eye-opening revelations, and see that not all Indians are supporters of Modi and believe the lies.

In our united fight against bigotry, hate, and injustice, I am glad we have Indians who are standing up for the right thing. Afterall it is the benefit of the common people we should always be after.

Pakistani identity and civilization should not be that controversial of a subject. I mean, Bengal too was part of the British Indian state, but we don't see Hindutva trying to bring back BD.

Pakistanis should be free to decide who they are, what constitutes their identity, and it should no one else's business.

All the Indians at my work (especially the ones from Gujarat, Mumbai, and UP). Gujaratis are the worse, their hatred is so obvious. One of the Gujrati guy was telling me that if it wasn't for the invaders Afghans, I (as in me) would still be Hindu and how much he hates Jinnah. I replied to him that I am the people that invaded (I am Pukhtoon) so i would not have been a Hindu and I love Jinnah for separating us from dumbasses like you.

Punjabis are by far the most friendly, it doesn't matter if they are Sikh or Hindus, they are just more interested in having fun and enjoying life.

Indeed brother, for us, Pukhtoons are very much one of the nuclear units of Pakistan. Pukhtoon identity is very much part and parcel of Pakistani identity. Even many Punjabis have Pukhtoon (Afghan) ancestry.
 
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Wow, a very in-depth analysis by you. I for one am glad to have varied viewpoints like yours on this forum. For too long we have been seeing only the Hindutva cadres on the forum and 'secular' Indians who defend them.

Thanks. Yaar, tum mujhe thora back-up karo. So many people here now think I am a false flagger (on both sides).

Maybe I should just pretend to be a Westerner Gora now (some of them do speak fluent Hindi like Tom Alter).:what:
 
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You have to pinch yourself that this man was in PPP serving the Bhutto clan.

Just one thing to add, Pakistan should be introduced as a civilization, going back all the way to Indus valley time. This will debunk all the non sense from India Afghanistan and Iran or anybody else who question us.
 
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Thanks. Yaar, tum mujhe thora back-up karo. So many people here now think I am a false flagger (on both sides).

Maybe I should just pretend to be a Westerner Gora now (some of them do speak fluent Hindi like Tom Alter).:what:

Don't worry about those gang of trolls. You have sensible Indian members here like @jamahir @xeuss to converse with as well.

Your insight is very important from a Pakistani perspective, and actually promotes a positive example of an India we don't hear much about. No Pakistani would know the intricacies of India as you have presented.

Carry on and be yourself. All of the forum has your back.

Thanks. Yaar, tum mujhe thora back-up karo. So many people here now think I am a false flagger (on both sides).

Which Pakistani is accusing you?

Yesterday someone called me Iranian. Can you believe I have been called Indian and Turkish also in the past?

You will get used to it. The best option is to ignore.

You have to pinch yourself that this man was in PPP serving the Bhutto clan.

Lol. Unfortunately in these areas, there is not much diversity. Before PTI, all of Central Punjab was N, even those who didn't believe in Sharifs. However life goes on and you do the best for your people regardless.

In sha Allah, I can see Sindh going PTI in a very big way.
 
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Don't worry about those gang of trolls. You have sensible Indian members here like @jamahir @xeuss to converse with as well.

Which Pakistani is accusing you?

Yesterday someone called me Iranian. Can you believe I have been called Indian and Turkish also in the past?

You will get used to it. The best option is to ignore.



Lol. Unfortunately in these areas, there is not much diversity. Before PTI, all of Central Punjab was N, even those who didn't believe in Sharifs. However life goes on and you do the best for your people regardless.

In sha Allah, I can see Sindh going PTI in a very big way.


Arey yaar, I get it. In India, there are many like them. I didn't realize they also invade your country's forum.

My only concern is that entering into some of these TROLL PITS can be time-consuming, as a moderator had warned me earlier. It's good that there is lockdown at the moment but I have to resume my duties in a few days time.

Many people take ignoring them as YOUR weakness but it's really about saving time. No one wins on the Internet.

I really wish I discussed and debated more with those two posters you mentioned, you, Imran Khan, N Siddiqui, and many others. There is so much to learn. Instead I find myself in these troll matches every single day.

But as you said, everyone experiences them here.

I will not take kindly to anyone doubting my nationality in the future, and will simply press ignore if anyone calls me a troll again. I am 100% Indian, abhi aur kaise saabit karoon.
 
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