Pakistani reactions to Chinese vs American Islamophobia

[JayAtl]

Look I'm really really really trying to understand the majority of Pakistanis here. You folks have this impression that US and India are Islamophobic, that they promote actions as such from their govt.

Can I get a broad agreement that Govt Phobia against a religion; in this case Islam- is when they use in broad strokes to punish all that follow the religion just because of few bad apples that happen to use the religion as an excuse for their bad actions?

Now where is the disconnect- is how Pakistanis are largely quiet when it comes to their allies doing so. Now I get you guys are very close to china, fair enough and good for you, really. But how do you quantify the fact that when riots happen there in their largely Muslim provinces- The Chinese Govt go after it brutally (2 years ago they killed nearly 200 in one district), they then pass govt mandated laws that not a single Muslim to go to their mosque to pray ( during those periods) and that they still have a rule where any Muslim under the age of 18 is not allowed to visit a mosque. And the chinese don't apologize for it... These are stated facts

On the other hand- US and India has suffered 10 folds due to terrorism where the religion was cited as the catalyst (given it was incorrectly done so). But yet- these countries, NEVER, NEVER, stopped religious freedom of Muslims or went on rampage to kill its own citizens. You did not see after Mumbai attacks or 911 Indian or US govt go into a district and kill hundreds of Muslims.

Help me understand this dichotomy

 

[Yeti]

Look I'm really really really trying to understand the majority of Pakistanis here. You folks have this impression that US and India are Islamophobia, that they promote actions as such from their govt.

Can I get a broad agreement that Govt Phobia against a religion; in this case Islam- is when they use in broad strokes to punish all that follow the religion just because of few bad apples that happen to use the religion as an excuse for their bad actions?

Now where is the disconnect- is how Pakistanis are largely quiet when it comes to their allies doing so. Now I get you guys are very close to china, fair enough and good for you, really. But how do you quantify the fact that when riots happen there in their largely Muslim provinces go after it brutally (2 years ago they killed nearly 200 in one district), they then pass govt mandated laws that not a single Muslim to go to their mosque to pray and that they still have a rule where any Muslim under the age of 18 is not allowed to visit a mosque. And the chinese don't aplogize for it...

US and India has suffered 10 folds due to terrorism where the religion was cited as the catalyst (given it was incorrectly done so). But yet- these countries, NEVER, NEVER, stopped religious freedom of Muslims or went on rampage to kill its own citizens. You did not see after Mumbai attacks or 911 Indian or US govt go into a district and kill hundreds of Muslims.

Help me understand this dichotomy

It's very simple they pick and choose who to back like LET is a state asset but East Turkestan Liberation Organization is not because their China will get mad

 

[Nomenclature]

Now where is the disconnect- is how Pakistanis are largely quiet when it comes to their allies doing so. Now I get you guys are very close to china, fair enough and good for you, really. But how do you quantify the fact that when riots happen there in their largely Muslim provinces- The Chinese Govt go after it brutally (2 years ago they killed nearly 200 in one district), they then pass govt mandated laws that not a single Muslim to go to their mosque to pray and that they still have a rule where any Muslim under the age of 18 is not allowed to visit a mosque. And the chinese don't apologize for it... These are stated facts

200+ had died in riots doesn't mean the government had killed 200 people.

As for the age restriction, it applies to all organized religions. You are not permitted to a church service til you're 18. I know some people may have very strong opinion on this but don't try to present it as somehow an anti-Muslim policy because it isn't.

 

[JayAtl]

200+ had died in riots doesn't mean the government had killed 200 people.

As for the age restriction, it applies to all organized religions. You are not permitted to a church service til you're 18. I know some people may have very strong opinion on this but don't try to present it as somehow an anti-Muslim policy because it isn't.

But the religion in question that Pakistanis here as a majority get up in arms (figuratively speaking) is about Islam and or treatment of Muslims. And thats more to the point of my post.
i.e. Lets face it -I’m sure they would not protest about Hindus, Jews or Christians treated differently.

 

[harshad]

its selective bashing because they hate india,israel
they hate usa because its a superpower

 

[TaimiKhan]

Look I'm really really really trying to understand the majority of Pakistanis here. You folks have this impression that US and India are Islamophobic, that they promote actions as such from their govt.

Can I get a broad agreement that Govt Phobia against a religion; in this case Islam- is when they use in broad strokes to punish all that follow the religion just because of few bad apples that happen to use the religion as an excuse for their bad actions?

Now where is the disconnect- is how Pakistanis are largely quiet when it comes to their allies doing so. Now I get you guys are very close to china, fair enough and good for you, really. But how do you quantify the fact that when riots happen there in their largely Muslim provinces- The Chinese Govt go after it brutally (2 years ago they killed nearly 200 in one district), they then pass govt mandated laws that not a single Muslim to go to their mosque to pray ( during those periods) and that they still have a rule where any Muslim under the age of 18 is not allowed to visit a mosque. And the chinese don't apologize for it... These are stated facts

On the other hand- US and India has suffered 10 folds due to terrorism where the religion was cited as the catalyst (given it was incorrectly done so). But yet- these countries, NEVER, NEVER, stopped religious freedom of Muslims or went on rampage to kill its own citizens. You did not see after Mumbai attacks or 911 Indian or US govt go into a district and kill hundreds of Muslims.

Help me understand this dichotomy

I don't see what is in your post which would make you get banned. Don't think we have such harsh rules that we ban people on such kind of thought provoking topics. After spending so much time on this forum, you should have known that, we are different then other forums.

Anyway, as a Pakistani, i would say, whatever China does is condemnable, but then again, they are doing it for their country safety. Nearly every country or should i say certain people in that country who are running the show has at some period of time killed their own country men / from same religion to keep the country together or its integrity together. Be is Pakistan in case of Bangladesh or baluchistan, India in case of Kashmir and may be in other areas like the insurgency hit areas, Iran against the Sunni in the restive areas, Iraq against Kurds and Shias, Turkey against Kurds etc etc etc.

This is not just related to Pakistan or Pakistanis, everyone thinks different. Indians justify the killings in Kashmir, Pakistani is Baluchistan, Iranians in their restive areas etc etc etc.

But, since 9/11, the Islamophobia has been created by the west, you will mostly see Muslims get picked out at US airports, the news channels documentaries showing Islam is bad and will do this and that to you, views from experts, all these things created the phobia and the war caused by US alone has cost the lives of Muslims in hundreds of thousands, revenge by US for the actions of some people who don't represent the thinking of Muslims or their actions not representing Muslims has caused death and destruction to ordinary Muslims and that gives rise to the idea of Islamphobia.

India & US may have suffered, but then they both have killed much more in return also. How much Indians have been killed by terrorism and then how much Muslims killed by Indian Security forces ?? Ever thought about it. How much US nationals killed on 9/11 and in return how many hundred thousand Muslims alone killed by the actions of the US, directly or indirectly.

Does AQ represent Muslims, are they governing any Muslim country ?? Then why kill ordinary Muslims who had nothing to do with AQ in revenge ?? Same for India, whoever does terrorist acts, are they representing the 200Million muslims of India or they doing it for their own twisted ideas, then why drag in ordinary Muslims in it.


So, in the end, would just like to say, take out the root causes which gives fire to these militants and not react or take revenge by taking lives, as it kills much more innocents, which gives again the impression of Islamphobia. Be it the US, India or anyone else. Bans on headscarf in Europe, bans on making Minarets of Mosques etc etc are all the actions which speak of Islaphobia, and they provide fire to the radicals or militants/extremists.

 

[jayron]

The only reason I can think of is Pakistanis are victims of their governments policy. They are just puppets controlled for strategic depth and leverage. They hate whom their government wants them to hate and love whom they are said to love. Religion is merely used as a catalyst.

 

[TaimiKhan]

its selective bashing because they hate india,israel
they hate usa because its a superpower

Yeah, from your point of view its selective bashing, but since you are not in the shoes of any Muslim, you won't be able to see the side of the picture which a Muslim sees.

But again, sometimes some people do become selective also, but its now across the board for everyone.

Same can be said about you guys too.

 

[TaimiKhan]

The only reason I can think of is Pakistanis are victims of their governments policy. They are just puppets controlled for strategic depth and leverage. They hate whom their government wants them to hate and love whom they are said to love. Religion is merely used as a catalyst.

Had that been the case, we would have been just like North Korea, closed to the outside world and being fed to the govt propaganda.

But since we have internet access, listen to CNN, BBC and all other international news channels and TV programs, our own media being very open and to a large extent neutral and very liberal, i don't see how your accusations hold. Any evidence that the govt is doing propaganda and doing what you just said ??

Do give proof, before throwing out such accusations.

Rather its the same on your side in the US, where the media is mostly engaged in running shows showing Islam is terrible and Muslims are terrorists, movies filled with Muslim terrorist characters, airports screening out Muslims with the presumption that its a random checking, Muslims being attacked to take out revenge, Headscarf worn by Muslims getting banned in Europe, minarets of mosques getting banned, govts trying to ban halal meat system for Muslims. Which Muslim country govt has banned or stopped nuns wearing headscarf, or asked Church not to make minaret showing the cross, or stopping other religion related duties, except for once in a while incidents of individuals doing some actions on their own. While in west, govts are passing laws against the Muslims in the name of free speech or whatever other sheit.


Height of hypocrisy from you guys.

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

Look I'm really really really trying to understand the majority of Pakistanis here. You folks have this impression that US and India are Islamophobic, that they promote actions as such from their govt.

Can I get a broad agreement that Govt Phobia against a religion; in this case Islam- is when they use in broad strokes to punish all that follow the religion just because of few bad apples that happen to use the religion as an excuse for their bad actions?

Now where is the disconnect- is how Pakistanis are largely quiet when it comes to their allies doing so. Now I get you guys are very close to china, fair enough and good for you, really. But how do you quantify the fact that when riots happen there in their largely Muslim provinces- The Chinese Govt go after it brutally (2 years ago they killed nearly 200 in one district), they then pass govt mandated laws that not a single Muslim to go to their mosque to pray ( during those periods) and that they still have a rule where any Muslim under the age of 18 is not allowed to visit a mosque. And the chinese don't apologize for it... These are stated facts

On the other hand- US and India has suffered 10 folds due to terrorism where the religion was cited as the catalyst (given it was incorrectly done so). But yet- these countries, NEVER, NEVER, stopped religious freedom of Muslims or went on rampage to kill its own citizens. You did not see after Mumbai attacks or 911 Indian or US govt go into a district and kill hundreds of Muslims.

Help me understand this dichotomy

Dude, you are taking this forum too seriously! are'nt you? You seriously care about what bunch of pakistanis/chines on this forum think about your country? If you do, then i am really surprised.

Btw...chill out and have some beer...

 

[JayAtl]

I don't see what is in your post which would make you get banned. Don't think we have such harsh rules that we ban people on such kind of thought provoking topics. After spending so much time on this forum, you should have known that, we are different then other forums.

Anyway, as a Pakistani, i would say, whatever China does is condemnable, but then again, they are doing it for their country safety. Nearly every country or should i say certain people in that country who are running the show has at some period of time killed their own country men / from same religion to keep the country together or its integrity together. Be is Pakistan in case of Bangladesh or baluchistan, India in case of Kashmir and may be in other areas like the insurgency hit areas, Iran against the Sunni in the restive areas, Iraq against Kurds and Shias, Turkey against Kurds etc etc etc.

This is not just related to Pakistan or Pakistanis, everyone thinks different. Indians justify the killings in Kashmir, Pakistani is Baluchistan, Iranians in their restive areas etc etc etc.

But, since 9/11, the Islamophobia has been created by the west, you will mostly see Muslims get picked out at US airports, the news channels documentaries showing Islam is bad and will do this and that to you, views from experts, all these things created the phobia and the war caused by US alone has cost the lives of Muslims in hundreds of thousands, revenge by US for the actions of some people who don't represent the thinking of Muslims or their actions not representing Muslims has caused death and destruction to ordinary Muslims and that gives rise to the idea of Islamphobia.

India & US may have suffered, but then they both have killed much more in return also. How much Indians have been killed by terrorism and then how much Muslims killed by Indian Security forces ?? Ever thought about it. How much US nationals killed on 9/11 and in return how many hundred thousand Muslims alone killed by the actions of the US, directly or indirectly.

Does AQ represent Muslims, are they governing any Muslim country ?? Then why kill ordinary Muslims who had nothing to do with AQ in revenge ?? Same for India, whoever does terrorist acts, are they representing the 200Million muslims of India or they doing it for their own twisted ideas, then why drag in ordinary Muslims in it.


So, in the end, would just like to say, take out the root causes which gives fire to these militants and not react or take revenge by taking lives, as it kills much more innocents, which gives again the impression of Islamphobia. Be it the US, India or anyone else. Bans on headscarf in Europe, bans on making Minarets of Mosques etc etc are all the actions which speak of Islaphobia, and they provide fire to the radicals or militants/extremists.

Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts out. Few comments about the why I think I could have got banned . Let me give you an example of my last ban (feel free to check).

Person A ( Pakistani) says ' NATO bombed mosques in Iraq'

( note:not true but yes they did fire( small arms) on some that had the terrorist shooting from within itself at the troops first.

I SAID: well because they were shooting at the troops from within, you guys did the same with red mosque situation where your troops were shot at from within the red mosque, certainly don't expect to lie down take fire and pray they don’t die.

Result= I get 14 days ban and that comment was cited as the reason.

As you can see a pretty honest conversation got me banned- hence my subject header here.

Now on the rest ---I don’t strongly disagree with most of what you have posted other than this media in the countries push the anti-Muslim meme- well that’s the media- yours does the same about Hindus and Indians. I was talking about govt actions.

Secondly, you said you condemn the Chinese but then quickly say they had to do it for their security reasons. My contention is, since when is banning religious freedom a security issue? What secruity issue does an 8yr old boy or girl pose? And if it is- imagine if India or US did so-- Most all Pakistanis would be up in arms about it -if we are discussing this honestly.

 

[below_freezing]

200 Han Chinese were killed by Uighur terrorists, who claim to be Muslim.

In return, 14 of them were sentenced to death, despite the number of terrorist thugs to be in the thousands.

If we adopted an Israel like policy, we would have simply bulldozed the houses of anyone without a Chinese name. Instead, we give them aid such that they can go to college with lower test scores than Han, have more subsidies, have halal cafeterias, write in their own Arabic script and are specifically exempt from family planning.

Does the US give subsidies to Muslims, or give them halal cafeterias?

 

[lonelyone]

This is just a troll post to incite tensions among China-Pakistan. Obviously Al-Qaeda and its minions are busy around the world planning bomb blasts for some reason that only they understand, however, if a government starts discriminating against its own people based on religious or ethnic lines, then the country is very quickly destabilized. BD also had a insurgency in the CHT, where terrorists (this time they claimed to be Buddhists), killed thousands of Bengalis. BD solved it the same way as China, with scholarships, some degree of autonomy, etc. Now the remnants are busy fighting themselves. More BD soldiers have died from malaria than from the insurgent's bullets.

 

[Jango]

Well, my friend, you gave the example of China banning under 18's from going to mosques. But, then you say that the US does this and gets lambasted. Two things i would like to say:

1- China is doing it to protect it's internal security, the US is doing it to protect it's internal security as well. But the difference is that China is doing it within it's own borders, and when it is inside it's own border, it may do whatever it wants to. But the US, is going beyond borders and ruining other countries and troubling other people for it's problems. Had the US restrained and restricted it self to the US mainland, nobody would have had a problem.

2- And you dont really think we are promoting this Islamophobia now do you? It was solely created by US in order to gain it's objectives, and to garner international support. If India and US have suffered 10 fold and they are in this situation, then Pakistan has suffered 100 times that!

 

[Jango]

If France bans women from headscarf, then no problem to everyone. But if a Muslim country gets a women jailed or fined for wearing short skimpy shirts and shorts, then human rights are violated!