Pakistani Nuclear Safety: Queries

[Kasrkin]

Many militaries and departments of defence have public defence biased journals and are public. Perhaps it is time that Pakistan looked at this as a way of gaining a bit more world recognition of their members’ reputation and status, as far as being experts goes.

You might want to take a look at this. I've been following this magazine for a while but looks like they don't sell much. It has no official connection with the military but the writers and contributors are mostly retired military.

Defence Journal - June 2009

It would be interesting to see if the ISSI prints a magazine or a newsletter, that would go some way in presenting a credible and comprehensive source of Pakistani military prospective. Right now respected Pakistani military writers get their articles published on a blog or foreign military magazines like the Air Forces Monthly.

 

[XYON]

I realise we may slightly go off track here but your comments do need a little rectifying.

Possibly within the confines of the Pakistan military there is a hiatus re publications. This is in reality a self inflected wound. Publishing in any reputable magazine or journal is a basis for getting that real recognition. Note reputable = normally an editorial panel reviewing the presented matter. This is all normal stuff for any academic which in essence your ISSI is just that an academic entity. Also one small proviso, the journals and magazines must be public. In house stuff has no meaning.

Now back to your military point re the brass not being good value experts. This is based on their lack of publication in reputable journals and magazines. Your comments also hint that these people don’t publish full stop.
Many militaries and departments of defence have public defence biased journals and are public. Perhaps it is time that Pakistan looked at this as a way of gaining a bit more world recognition of their members’ reputation and status, as far as being experts goes.

Also HILAL is not the level I am referring to.

Some links to examples:

Defence Magazine: Issue 3 2009

Welcome to Australian Defence Force Journal

The Soldiers Army : August 20th 2009, Page 1 - Defence Newspapers | The Soldiers Army

USNI Official Website - U.S. Naval Institute

Marines Magazine

There are more and they take submission from outside their respective services as well.


Ok end taking things off track..

Except for the 'Defense Journal' being published by Ikram Shegal, I do not see any other Pakistani publication that could give an outlet for our defense and strategic discussions. However, the civilian experts I have indicated above have had their research papers published in many international journals of repute.

ISSI should make efforts to bring about a Pakistani publication of international reach which will have the desired effect of molding opinions. For the world; it just does not make it so if a retired General says it so!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

For the world; it just does not make it so if a retired General says it so!

The exception being Gen. Hamid Gul, who inevitably gets quoted, interviewed and analyzed more than any other retired general (well, maybe aside from Musharraf, but he's recent).

 

[fatman17]

serving general staff cannot write any publications or comment until they retire. very few have the ability to write op-eds in defence of nukes or terrorism or any other defence related issue.

pakistani military in general has taken a late start in this area. the pakistani military of the near-past 99 and now, slowly started to think in this direction as the staff college, NDU were encouraged to think and write in such matters. not all generals have the ability to write. those that do, have concentrated on the 65 and 71 wars and the battles therein and have put the record straight from the "myths" created in the past by the likes of the GoP/Ispr. Defence Journal has carried many of these articles!

now with the advent of the media (and a chance to make a name and income after retirement), retd officers have started to come out of the woodwork which is good.

so yes we lack in this area (like other areas) and quickly must rectify and the TT forum is the perfect opportunity to combine our efforts to defend against the western media/analysts who will continue with their negative bent!

 

[XYON]

The exception being Gen. Hamid Gul, who inevitably gets quoted, interviewed and analyzed more than any other retired general (well, maybe aside from Musharraf, but he's recent).

Hamid Gul is famous for the WRONG reasons in the international media! He is seen as the bastion & promoter of the Talibaan-ISI nexus in Pakistan. He has nothing to do with the intellect or expertise in defense or strategic matters.

Musharraf unfortunately is just between a rock and a hard place these days. Again being a General he tends to blabber a bit on every point. He needs to learn to be concise and precise.

 

[fatman17]

Hamid Gul is a good read - thats all!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The problem with the analysis that the professor had is that it is choking pakistan and strangulating it bit by a bit---there are a thousand other writings against pakistan---slowly and gradually this balls gathers mass and when it would get big enough to explode---pakistan will be in the harms way.

If it would have been written against any other nation--eg---russia or india---it would have died its natural death---but when it comes down to pakistan---the world has too much negative news about pakistan---any error of judgement---purposeful or unintentional puts another nail in the box---pakistan is already judged as a pariah nation---pakistani nuclear program is a big big issue on the world forum. Any news about pakistani nuclear program on the world media is bad news---that is the bottomline.

And arguably---people like the professor must be confronted in the world news media / world press. We don't want them to change their minds---we just want the world to know that they are mis-stating the facts---once the world realizes that they are not telling the truth---sometimes the fundings dry down for research---and other things happen to people that are less than truthful---. Once you become known as less than trustworthy in tyhe defnce circles and the media---one may have just signed their own death warrant.

How would the israelis confront this issue----they would care less who the person was---they will make him look like a liar, a pariah, an anti semite---they will just destroy that persons reputation and integrity to the level that hardly any have the courage to speak against them---they will tear up that persons analysis piece by a piece---right in front of him and make him swallow his lies in front of the world. They would make such an example out of that individual, that others dare not lie against their cause.

I have been trying to bring about this point in another thread but to no success.

 

[muse]

Mastankhan


The deal with mudslinging is that many times the mud sticks and that is after all why it is being thrown. Pakistan do not have to react to every lunatic fringe as if it was the end of the world - but lets look at it with a view to getting at the "why" - here I think you will agree that it is the "softness" of the Pakistani state that many find incredibly dangerous.

The Pakistani state can end much of this kind of analysis by forcefully destroying the Islamist insurgency in Pakistan and by killing off the intellectual support Islamism has in society in general. The Pakistrani state seems unwilling to create out of Pakistan an example of prosperity and a polity integrated into the international system. It is these fears that are at the heart of the matter.

Pakistan cannot be denuclearized, it weapons capablity cannot be destroyed and no one seriously wants Pakistan to fail - it is the fear that opinion makers and authorities seem unwilling to assert themselves over those in Pakistan and the region who wish to tear Pakistan into little pieces that scares the world.

And while Pakistan cannot be denuclearlized, what is the point of suggesting that the insurgents do not wish to or are unable to target facilities that are engaged in either research or production of nuclear materials, it is clear that the insurgents can do this, the degree of success or lack thereof, is not the point.

Pakistan as a state that is committed to creating the opportunity for dignified lives for it's citizens and a Pakistan that is serious about it exclusive sovereignty in it's territory, is what should be the answer to these sorts of mud slinging efforts.

 

[Kasrkin]

I have been trying to bring about this point in another thread but to no success.

You should know that your views, while interesting, are your views. Institutionally sponsored coercion and intimidation of academics is not our mandate or purpose. We're also committed to ideals a little higher than the likes of what you're referring to. Our principles are based around projecting a positive, constructive, respectable and accurate imagine of Pakistan. Defence.pk does not see itself as a Pakistan propaganda station on the internet, we're committed to presenting a Pakistani perspective grounded in fact, logic and morality. As well as understanding other points of view, we hope to project Pakistan through acknowledgment and mutual respect. Even if such is lacking on occasion, our respectability will not be.

There is plenty of anti-Pakistani content out there in cyberspace, most of it is crude, unjustified and corrosive. While some is logical and respectable. Either way, we hope to engage all of it intellectually and factually. We have no reason to be insecure or defensive of who we are, thus everyone will have their say. We all know that Pakistan lacks in the PR department, we can do our small bit to rectify that by contributing our formidable intellect and knowledge to debates that define our international presence. Childish behavior that reeks of insecurity will not be appreciated. We don't plan on staying in a closet, but we don't appreciate confrontation when respect and discourse works just as well. Despite being one of the more respectable forums out there, our professional outlook has room for improvement. I appreciate all of you who contribute, and hope we can continue along the road of achieving grounded, realistic and relevant professionalism.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

The views are sound in their intent.

One issue is that you can not defend against negativity by staying within the confines of defence.pk. Articles are written in various journals, news papers electronic and print and these are outside this forum in their presentations. Countering their claims just within the confines of this forum will not achieve as much as you may think. It will appease the local Pakistani members; possibly upset the non Pakistani members; but it is in the long run very local.
Also with that comes the argument/discussion already here is the concept of credibility. This covers both credibility of the writer, specifically forum member and also the sources used within discussions. Many discussions here also end up running off rails very fast and end up sniping in meaningless manners on points off that initial topic. This does not assist in either credibility or help attract outsiders to view defence.pk as a respectable reliable point of reference.

There are going to be many cases that to counter any negative perspective presented in a media piece you have to go to that source and provide a counter. This is now a problem for the TT members as a group to get something down factually and well referenced.
Yes hard work and time consuming.

This media counter has been raised else where as I have already pointed out to you. Again what is happening there and the intent possibly needs to be discussed within your TT group.

Yes no doubt I am just ranting again and going off track again.

Good luck.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastankhan


The deal with mudslinging is that many times the mud sticks and that is after all why it is being thrown. Pakistan do not have to react to every lunatic fringe as if it was the end of the world - but lets look at it with a view to getting at the "why" - here I think you will agree that it is the "softness" of the Pakistani state that many find incredibly dangerous.

The Pakistani state can end much of this kind of analysis by forcefully destroying the Islamist insurgency in Pakistan and by killing off the intellectual support Islamism has in society in general. The Pakistrani state seems unwilling to create out of Pakistan an example of prosperity and a polity integrated into the international system. It is these fears that are at the heart of the matter.

Pakistan cannot be denuclearized, it weapons capablity cannot be destroyed and no one seriously wants Pakistan to fail - it is the fear that opinion makers and authorities seem unwilling to assert themselves over those in Pakistan and the region who wish to tear Pakistan into little pieces that scares the world.

And while Pakistan cannot be denuclearlized, what is the point of suggesting that the insurgents do not wish to or are unable to target facilities that are engaged in either research or production of nuclear materials, it is clear that the insurgents can do this, the degree of success or lack thereof, is not the point.

Pakistan as a state that is committed to creating the opportunity for dignified lives for it's citizens and a Pakistan that is serious about it exclusive sovereignty in it's territory, is what should be the answer to these sorts of mud slinging efforts.

Hi Muse,

That is all understandable----it is all fine and good---but till then someone else is taking care of that issue---some of us who have the ability to do our part to confront the issue on the world forum as Ratus Ratus suggetsed and about which I have talked extensilvely cannot be put on the back burner.

I appreciate what you have written and it is important that it be taken care of---but it is not of much significance regarding this issue---.

You are mixing two very important thing up and none of it would be resolved---.

Let me give you an example---Before Arnold Schwarzener became gov of california there was a democrat in office---he wanted to provide driver licenses to illegal alioens in the state of california so that they may get insurance on their automobiles---right now they drive unisured---people were against the idea but they liked it because of the insurance issue---the republican agreed to it somewhat---

Till the final draft came forward---the democrats had also slipped in a clause giving the illegal aliens the right to get a cilifornia identity card as well---well guess what happened to that clever idiot who slipped one in---nothing---but the illegals aliens didnot get the right to get a driver's lic---they are still driving ininsured.

Each issue has its little cubby hole and each issue needs to dealt within its own merits. Gregory is such an issue and it needs to be dealt with.

I am glad that Ratus Ratus came up with the same suggestion that I posted on the other thread. I have been vindicated. Thankyou RR.

 

[Xeric]

The only thing that i know when it comes to writing and publishing is the importance of factuality, credibility and accuracy. Newspapers, magazines, news channels, editorials and research papers have to be perfect and accurate in every sense. Even if someone is lifting a lid off an issue which can bring him trouble he has to double check everything otherwise as per the morals he goes down the drain for ever never to be picked up again just because he has written something untrue and superficial. Newspapers have been kicked, news channels bashed and writers beaten because they have written/published a lie!!

The very basic ethics in media writing is the credibility and it is because of this credibility people believe what is written and no one questions the writer from where did he get his info, who did he interview and what were his sources because we believe that what he attributes and links must be true, but someone link Greg writes something totally baseless and ill-researched no one is bothered about it. What do you think about a Asian/Pakistani dude coming up with an article saying that no one have gone to the moon, 9/11 was an inside job, zionists are eating up everything, Bush was just a tool, Obama is a bigger loser etc etc-we term him as a conspiracy theorist and snub him thoroughly. He is sidelined and he find his career near an end, but what we do when Greg do the some sorta thing??

 

[Ratus Ratus]

but what we do when Greg do the some sorta thing??

You do what I said you do. Respond to that magazine providing valid comment against the article. A form of follow on letter/reader criticism.
BUT make sure there is no emotional outbursts. Make sure there are facts.

 

[Xeric]

but what we do when Greg do the some sorta thing??

You do what I said you do. Respond to that magazine providing valid comment against the article. A form of follow on letter/reader criticism.
BUT make sure there is no emotional outbursts. Make sure there are facts.

You are right, i think most of us here have been saying the same thing. Sending 'private' letters wont do the job.

 

[Xeric]

i want to tweet Kas' letter to Greg to a few friends, so first i need permission to do so, second if the permission is granted how should i link Kas' post (post#1) to the outside as this thread cant be viewed by all?