Pakistani Liberals Should be Ashamed at Being on The Same Side as Foreign Fascists

[El Sidd]

Yes, in its literal sense it means someone living beyond the Indus river/Sindhu river but is generally used to describe a follower of Hinduism.

most polytheists are hindus but not all hindus are polytheists.

 

[KhalaiMakhlooq]

Agreed, hence when the individual is not universal; then why is it that a state assumes the responsibility of defining an individuals understanding of Islam?

This is an issue that should only be between God and the individual and this was emphasised by Qadi Azam.

 

[El Sidd]

This is an issue that should only be between God and the individual and this was emphasised by Qadi Azam.

its not about creed or sect.

its about islamic justice system. it is the business of the state if you suddenly claim yourself divine king of people or assume to sabotage the state interest based on end of times prophecies.

Thats why america is failing

 

[Khan_patriot]

most polytheists are hindus but not all hindus are polytheists.

Bur most of them have the caste system don't they? Which is institutionalised by the government. In Pakistan atleast sectarianism is not state sponested and is perpetrated by religious yahoos only.

 

[SQ8]

This is an issue that should only be between God and the individual and this was emphasised by Qadi Azam.

Which then is the contention in this thread, that what defines a Liberal and/or religious extremist as Anti-Pakistan?
We have die-hard Liberal patriots and Religious extremists who wish to wage war against everyone under a righteous Pakistani flag.
Do we just blanket them all under enemies of the state?

 

[El Sidd]

Bur most of them have the caste system don't they? Which is institutionalised by the government. In Pakistan atleast sectarianism is not state sponested and is perpetrated by religious yahoos only.

Yes.

but the caste system still has a clout over Pakistani people.

 

[KhalaiMakhlooq]

Which then is the contention in this thread, that what defines a Liberal and/or religious extremist as Anti-Pakistan?
We have die-hard Liberal patriots and Religious extremists who wish to wage war against everyone under a righteous Pakistani flag.
Do we just blanket them all under enemies of the state?

What defines Pro-Pakistan ? lets start there

 

[Khan_patriot]

Yes.

but the caste system still has a clout over Pakistani people.

The clout of the caste system is not sponsored by the state.

 

[SQ8]

What defines Pro-Pakistan ? lets start there

That is a good question. What is pro-Pakistan?
If Pakistan was under somebody like Saddam and his sons were abusing wives and daughters by picking them up from the street and gassing opponents; is that pro-Pakistan?
Was massive corruption of the military procurement practices and merit during the dictators pro-Pakistan?
Was Bhuttos nuclear program push pro-Pakistan or his nationalization of assets?

Was letting religious extremism be Pro-Pakistan or letting foreign embassies run schools with questionable curriculum?

 

[KhalaiMakhlooq]

That is a good question. What is pro-Pakistan?
If Pakistan was under somebody like Saddam and his sons were abusing wives and daughters by picking them up from the street and gassing opponents; is that pro-Pakistan?
Was massive corruption of the military procurement practices and merit during the dictators pro-Pakistan?
Was Bhuttos nuclear program push pro-Pakistan or his nationalization of assets?

Was letting religious extremism be Pro-Pakistan or letting foreign embassies run schools with questionable curriculum?

Its very easy to call anyone "anti-Pakistan". You should clearly define pro-Pakistan first and then we can start a discussion. And that is not done by looking at the negatives of others.

 

[SQ8]

Its very easy to call anyone "anti-Pakistan". You should clearly define pro-Pakistan first and then we can start a discussion. And that is not done by looking at the negatives of others.

I looked at the negatives of those which could be positives in other eyes.

How do you define pro-Pakistan?

One can have Pro-Pakistan as a country with 1000 nuclear warheads with ICBMs but still in miserable social conditions or a vassal state with good living standards.

 

[El Sidd]

The clout of the caste system is not sponsored by the state.

will never be either

 

[KhalaiMakhlooq]

I looked at the negatives of those which could be positives in other eyes.

How do you define pro-Pakistan?

One can have Pro-Pakistan as a country with 1000 nuclear warheads with ICBMs but still in miserable social conditions or a vassal state with good living standards.

The world is full of billions of people, who have unique personalities and unique viewpoints. There are not homogeneous. Life comes first.

 

[Crusher]

These people who call themselves liberals these days came to the forefront of national discourse only after Musharraf took over the rule and started his so-called "enlightened moderation" movement in early 2000s, I remember he used to get his photos published in newspapers along with his pet dogs, something that was unseen from any head of pakistani state before him in my memory, he also used to organize dance parties and used to sing together with mirasi singers who are raag specialists, one of his mirasi type singing performance became quite a hit on youtube during 2006 or 2007, I believe. It was during this time that nobodies with deviant behaviors and thoughts started calling themselves "liberals" and took full advantage of Musharraf regime's patronage and got integrated in the mainstream national discourse.
We had these kind of so-called liberals with deviant thoughts and behaviors even before Musharraf time too but they never got the chance to influence the mainstream national discourse of the country, they were always treated like any other fringe groups, nothing more than that. Asma jehangir was quite popular in the printing press and newspapers in those days even in 90s but I never saw her given the platform of PTV to spew her deviant agendas and thoughts. With Musharraf's liberalization of private electronic media, suddenly these people got an easy platform to propagate their fringe ideologies and thoughts on private news channels and they made full use of it and are still making full use of it. Then came off course social media like twitter and facebook which increased their reach to the mainstream national discourse ever further. So these days these so-called "liberals" are everywhere in national discourse. A fringe groups until late 90s is shaping the mainstream national narrative these days because there is no check balance in place in electronic and social media in Pakistan.
As I see it in Gen. Zia ul Haq's time, the religious extremists got integrated in the mainstream national discourse of Pakistani state but in Musharraf's time it was these fringe deviant "liberals" got integrated in the mainstream discourse. So one ill was replaced with another ill. What pakistan now need is that pakistani state needs to bring back the mainstream national discourse back in the hands of levelheaded mentally and ideologically moderate and flexible people and stop integrating extremist deviant groups on both left and right of political spectrum.

 

[Clutch]

These people who call themselves liberals these days came to the forefront of national discourse only after Musharraf took over the rule and started his so-called "enlightened moderation" movement in early 2000s, I remember he used to get his photos published in newspapers along with his pet dogs, something that was unseen from any head of pakistani state before him in my memory, he also used to organize dance parties and used to sing together with mirasi singers who are raag specialists, one of his mirasi type singing performance became quite a hit on youtube during 2006 or 2007, I believe. It was during this time that nobodies with deviant behaviors and thoughts started calling themselves "liberals" and took full advantage of Musharraf regime's patronage and got integrated in the mainstream national discourse.
We had these kind of so-called liberals with deviant thoughts and behaviors even before Musharraf time too but they never got the chance to influence the mainstream national discourse of the country, they were always treated like any other fringe groups, nothing more than that. Asma jehangir was quite popular in the printing press and newspapers in those days even in 90s but I never saw her given the platform of PTV to spew her deviant agendas and thoughts. With Musharraf's liberalization of private electronic media, suddenly these people got an easy platform to propagate their fringe ideologies and thoughts on private news channels and they made full use of it and are still making full use of it. Then came off course social media like twitter and facebook which increased their reach to the mainstream national discourse ever further. So these days these so-called "liberals" are everywhere in national discourse. A fringe groups until late 90s is shaping the mainstream national narrative these days because there is no check balance in place in electronic and social media in Pakistan.
As I see it in Gen. Zia ul Haq's time, the religious extremists got integrated in the mainstream national discourse of Pakistani state but in Musharraf's time it was these fringe deviant "liberals" got integrated in the mainstream discourse. So one ill was replaced with another ill. What pakistan now need is that pakistani state needs to bring back the mainstream national discourse back in the hands of levelheaded mentally and ideologically moderate and flexible people and stop integrating extremist deviant groups on both left and right of political spectrum.

Good analysis...