What's new

Pakistani Intel's SIGINT, COMINT, ELINT, gone hi-tech hi-spec, global reach

Obviously an insane amount of data has to be processed through supercomputers and humans can only look at the pieces flagged by it. We don't expect anything different from our intelligence agencies. You say that billions are required for this arrangement but I personally think it can be done on a much smaller budget than what the US spent. The reason being that cost of intelligent labor like Software Engineers etc in US is so much more than countries like China and Pakistan. Cost of building supercomputers would be a little less as well.

And considering the dire need of a capability like this Pakistan, I don't think spending $500-600 million or even a few billions is too much to ask for. We already spend tens of billions on defense every year. This wouldn't matter much.

And just for the record, the world fastest supercomputer, Tianhe-2 , cost around $390 million to build. Obviously no one in Pakistan would be looking to surpass that amount or speed.

Well, this kind of activities need more than just a supercomputer....

In the intelligence cycle, you need a way to gather data, a way to process data, a way to dissimilate information, a way to protect those information and a way to react to the information. All this 5 stage form the core of intelligence activities.

Supercomputer is only a part of ways to process the raw data, and then you will need more than a single computer to decipher all the data you need as you are facing 3 different set of raw data. Text (E-mail, Webpage), Voice (Phone Call and Video Call) and Image (Video Call and surveillance photo). You need to have 3 separate supercomputer to process all these information.


Then you also need to look at your ways to collect data. Equipment wise, you will need a filter box physically attach to any cell tower or telephone exchange to basically filter the call to your agency, then you will need a communication network which mirror your local telephone network to basically put transport those volume of call to your agency.


But what if the target you are tracking did not just use landline and/or cell phone? Even in the US, not all area are covered by Cell tower and Landline, which mean microwave equipment and satellite equipment would need to monitor CB/Radio Band wave and Satellite Communication. And also one-way communication (Such as broadcast or number station) would require good old fashion Man power to monitor. Surveillance wise, you will need CCTV in street corner where you did not had them already, and where you had CCTV already, then you will need add them to your surveillance network.


Then Data Processing, beside the different Supercomputer you will need to process those data, You will also need a data farm where you can store all the data (both relevant and irrelevant), communication between data farm, people to work at the data farm. And security protocol within the Data Farm. Depending on network security solution, each data farm would need to be turn into a different level of SCIF, which would cost different set of money for different level of SCIF.


After you have your data processed, then you will need to find a way to independently verify the data for its authenticity. Not anyone saying "Bomb" is automatically a threat you know? But those keyword will be filtered so they will need to see who is saying it and what is saying it for. That mean a team to verify the information and see if they were genuine threat.


Afterward, you will need to protect all the step you did above, otherwise your target may be able to penetrate your network and hence negate your whole operation. You need to do that by a way to implement OPSEC, INFOSEC and COMSEC. Depending on the level of security you want, it will again cost you a lot of money.


Depending on the level of information you want, the coverage you want and the level of security you want, the money factor is quite different. For a full spectrum one like the NSA were using, although the figure is classified, the estimation to establish a PRISM like system cost upward to 5 billions, and the yearly operating cost (Before operational support) are 20-25 millions a year.
 
.
massive capability to track all social media, smart phones, emails, encrypted messages, voice recognition, facial recognition algorithms.

Everything else is do-able with today's computing power, but breaking the encryption standards used by different governments today aren't (unless you are the US or an Israel). Unless India is using old school DES/RSS/Older PGP or MD technologies, the newer Cryptography techniques like AES and tripple AES are impossible to break (again, unless you are the US or Israel). But I believe the remainder of your post. Everything else can be tracked, detected and used.
 
.
i dont think pakistan has a supercomputer or a system powerfull enough to filter through millions of users data. or has algorythms complex enough to recognise to look out for keywords. tech is there but its restricted and expensive.

Another problem more related than technology is manpower.

As I said before, not everything filtered would actually be turned out to be a threat, meaning while there could be a terrorist plotting an attack over the phone, at the other end of town, there could be a teenager playing COD Black Ops 3 and talking on the phone about the game maybe urging an attack on the enemy. So keyword search would generate a lot of bogus result (We called them attrition) . But each result would have to be individually verified by a human operator.

Using this webpage (PDF) as an example, if we do a simple keyword search on "Attack", this generate a search result of 187 post within a day, seeing at PDF have about 12,000 Active user a day, your attrition rate on this keyword is about 1.5%. And this is just this keyword, and there are many more. So in the end, if we were to monitor this site for 10 keyword such as you ended up probably looking at 2000-3000 post a day just to sip thru this webpage. Now imagine 199 millions Pakistani and how much will be the net result if the attrition rate is 2% (that's 3 millions Pakistani would be monitored A DAY!!!) and that's just for one keyword.

Technology could help a bit, which the US has been using Voice Print + Keyword search, which highlighted some suspected terrorist voice and flag their phone call if a voice on the phone that match the voice print, but in Pakistani case, I would not assume ISI can goes these hi tech.

Manpower wise, Pakistani Intelligence circle is smaller than the US. But with a population 2/3 of the size of US. While the Big 4 US Intelligence Services (FBI, CIA, NSA and DIA) put together have a reported strength of 120,000 employee, I don't think ISI (If i remember correctly) have more than 50,000, and all the data have to be verified almost immediately as they are time sensitive, so manpower is more of a major concern than technology-wise
 
.
Another problem more related than technology is manpower.

As I said before, not everything filtered would actually be turned out to be a threat, meaning while there could be a terrorist plotting an attack over the phone, at the other end of town, there could be a teenager playing COD Black Ops 3 and talking on the phone about the game maybe urging an attack on the enemy. So keyword search would generate a lot of bogus result (We called them attrition) . But each result would have to be individually verified by a human operator.

Using this webpage (PDF) as an example, if we do a simple keyword search on "Attack", this generate a search result of 187 post within a day, seeing at PDF have about 12,000 Active user a day, your attrition rate on this keyword is about 1.5%. And this is just this keyword, and there are many more. So in the end, if we were to monitor this site for 10 keyword such as you ended up probably looking at 2000-3000 post a day just to sip thru this webpage. Now imagine 199 millions Pakistani and how much will be the net result if the attrition rate is 2% (that's 3 millions Pakistani would be monitored A DAY!!!) and that's just for one keyword.

Technology could help a bit, which the US has been using Voice Print + Keyword search, which highlighted some suspected terrorist voice and flag their phone call if a voice on the phone that match the voice print, but in Pakistani case, I would not assume ISI can goes these hi tech.

Manpower wise, Pakistani Intelligence circle is smaller than the US. But with a population 2/3 of the size of US. While the Big 4 US Intelligence Services (FBI, CIA, NSA and DIA) put together have a reported strength of 120,000 employee, I don't think ISI (If i remember correctly) have more than 50,000, and all the data have to be verified almost immediately as they are time sensitive, so manpower is more of a major concern than technology-wise


Technology has gone much beyond than what you can imagine :enjoy:. 1000 people can track trends being crated by 1-2 billion people without issues. Big Data is one of the newer generations technologies now commercially available. But the US has been using it since like the 1995 or something.It can track Videos, Humans, Texts, Emails, Databases, Websites, Twitter and Facebook posts and can form advance trends for you in a fraction of a second if you can afford the computing power the US uses.

There is so much automation now a days that you don't have physical people "looking for stuff" anymore. Its the computers and sensors doing the work and people get involve when there is a need for it.

Which is why I wrote in my previous post that from the list of capabilities provided by the OP, everything is possible even in Pakistan BUT breaking the encryption. That's only limited to two countries, the US and Israel (i am referring to advance Cryptography not encryption from 2 decades ago). There is a network of super computers required along with serious human brain power of specialists who've worked and designed Cryptography ciphers for decades. Its an area that the US has always pioneered in :usflag:
 
. .
China is building its Super Computers so we can have few from them and this kind of agency is must in this modern world
 
.
Another problem more related than technology is manpower.

As I said before, not everything filtered would actually be turned out to be a threat, meaning while there could be a terrorist plotting an attack over the phone, at the other end of town, there could be a teenager playing COD Black Ops 3 and talking on the phone about the game maybe urging an attack on the enemy. So keyword search would generate a lot of bogus result (We called them attrition) . But each result would have to be individually verified by a human operator.

Using this webpage (PDF) as an example, if we do a simple keyword search on "Attack", this generate a search result of 187 post within a day, seeing at PDF have about 12,000 Active user a day, your attrition rate on this keyword is about 1.5%. And this is just this keyword, and there are many more. So in the end, if we were to monitor this site for 10 keyword such as you ended up probably looking at 2000-3000 post a day just to sip thru this webpage. Now imagine 199 millions Pakistani and how much will be the net result if the attrition rate is 2% (that's 3 millions Pakistani would be monitored A DAY!!!) and that's just for one keyword.

Technology could help a bit, which the US has been using Voice Print + Keyword search, which highlighted some suspected terrorist voice and flag their phone call if a voice on the phone that match the voice print, but in Pakistani case, I would not assume ISI can goes these hi tech.

Manpower wise, Pakistani Intelligence circle is smaller than the US. But with a population 2/3 of the size of US. While the Big 4 US Intelligence Services (FBI, CIA, NSA and DIA) put together have a reported strength of 120,000 employee, I don't think ISI (If i remember correctly) have more than 50,000, and all the data have to be verified almost immediately as they are time sensitive, so manpower is more of a major concern than technology-wise
if you talking about pakistan's inteligance agency then one must assume thats its not only the isi, but there are a number of internal agencies and external agencies that contribute to inteligance as a whole.

yes there is so much activity that when filtered then would mean a terror operation, which would end up being a game of COD. now if they check what someone is saying then im sure they can figure out its only a game. also here [pdf] somthing will come up but upon inspection by a human they will find that its justa forum. but can be of value as enthuiasts from other countries take "juicy" pictures eith from china, pakistan, india etc....

also i put up a link on the first page regarding the isi to intercept optical fibre lines etc... that would give you the scope of the isi's operation. to save you time the link is below.
https://www.privacyinternational.org/sites/default/files/PAKISTAN REPORT HIGH RES 20150721_1.pdf

also below shows the amount of inteligance agencies that are in pakistan now im sure that the number is quiet high certainly over 100,000. i think its a matter of getting the technological ability than manpower.

 
.
if you talking about pakistan's inteligance agency then one must assume thats its not only the isi, but there are a number of internal agencies and external agencies that contribute to inteligance as a whole.

yes there is so much activity that when filtered then would mean a terror operation, which would end up being a game of COD. now if they check what someone is saying then im sure they can figure out its only a game. also here [pdf] somthing will come up but upon inspection by a human they will find that its justa forum. but can be of value as enthuiasts from other countries take "juicy" pictures eith from china, pakistan, india etc....

also i put up a link on the first page regarding the isi to intercept optical fibre lines etc... that would give you the scope of the isi's operation. to save you time the link is below.
https://www.privacyinternational.org/sites/default/files/PAKISTAN REPORT HIGH RES 20150721_1.pdf

also below shows the amount of inteligance agencies that are in pakistan now im sure that the number is quiet high certainly over 100,000. i think its a matter of getting the technological ability than manpower.

Yeah, there is Intelligence Bureau(IB), Directorate General of Intelligence and Investigation (D.G. I&I) and Special Branch(SB) as well.
 
Last edited:
.
if you talking about pakistan's inteligance agency then one must assume thats its not only the isi, but there are a number of internal agencies and external agencies that contribute to inteligance as a whole.

yes there is so much activity that when filtered then would mean a terror operation, which would end up being a game of COD. now if they check what someone is saying then im sure they can figure out its only a game. also here [pdf] somthing will come up but upon inspection by a human they will find that its justa forum. but can be of value as enthuiasts from other countries take "juicy" pictures eith from china, pakistan, india etc....

also i put up a link on the first page regarding the isi to intercept optical fibre lines etc... that would give you the scope of the isi's operation. to save you time the link is below.
https://www.privacyinternational.org/sites/default/files/PAKISTAN REPORT HIGH RES 20150721_1.pdf

also below shows the amount of inteligance agencies that are in pakistan now im sure that the number is quiet high certainly over 100,000. i think its a matter of getting the technological ability than manpower.


lol, as I said in the very first post, I don't doubt Pakistani ability in Tracking or Listening Ability, but rather processing those intel. Tracking can be done remotely, which literally don't need manpower (Except when you have to physically bug a location) problem is, there are a lot less trained Intelligence Officer in Pakistan to process those information (I previously listed the Top 4 Intelligence Agency in the US, I will list the whole US Intelligence Community below). And those are the ability as well as personnel that Pakistani Lacking.

If you compare Pakistani Intelligence Community and US intelligence community, the big different is that they are quite centralized within Pakistan and while US intelligence agency exist on the level of individual level, which is the reason why I listed only the big 4. Because they are the rare breed of independent Intelligence Agency within the US.

The US Intelligence Community included 17 US Federal Agencies, as well as Private Contractor (Bear in mind Edward Snowden was a US intelligence Operative but he was not working for the NSA or even the government but working for a private contractor). In all, although the actual number of US Intelligence Operative are not disclosed, as of 2010, over 850,000 US Citizens hold TS/SCI clearance, which would put a good estimation of total US intelligence community Manpower


United States Intelligence Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

US_Intelligence_Community_members.gif


Another point being, the OP was asking on a Full Spectrum Intelligence Monitoring program like PRISM, not just a selected area or selected location. Hence I do not think Pakistan have enough man power to pull off something like that
By the way, this is my estimation on Pak intel community based on my experience with ISI during my days as an 902/CI S-2 (Intelligence Officer) So it would be quite objective.
 
.
lol, as I said in the very first post, I don't doubt Pakistani ability in Tracking or Listening Ability, but rather processing those intel. Tracking can be done remotely, which literally don't need manpower (Except when you have to physically bug a location) problem is, there are a lot less trained Intelligence Officer in Pakistan to process those information (I previously listed the Top 4 Intelligence Agency in the US, I will list the whole US Intelligence Community below). And those are the ability as well as personnel that Pakistani Lacking.

If you compare Pakistani Intelligence Community and US intelligence community, the big different is that they are quite centralized within Pakistan and while US intelligence agency exist on the level of individual level, which is the reason why I listed only the big 4. Because they are the rare breed of independent Intelligence Agency within the US.

The US Intelligence Community included 17 US Federal Agencies, as well as Private Contractor (Bear in mind Edward Snowden was a US intelligence Operative but he was not working for the NSA or even the government but working for a private contractor). In all, although the actual number of US Intelligence Operative are not disclosed, as of 2010, over 850,000 US Citizens hold TS/SCI clearance, which would put a good estimation of total US intelligence community Manpower


United States Intelligence Community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

View attachment 285883

Another point being, the OP was asking on a Full Spectrum Intelligence Monitoring program like PRISM, not just a selected area or selected location. Hence I do not think Pakistan have enough man power to pull off something like that
By the way, this is my estimation on Pak intel community based on my experience with ISI during my days as an 902/CI S-2 (Intelligence Officer) So it would be quite objective.
the usa is a huge country with cutting edge technology. take us (the UK) for example we dont have much inteligance agencies. but the ones we do have do have a notorious reputation. in regards to private contractors then i have no idea how the isi operates or manages them if they even do, nor do i assume you do to or anyone on the forum knows if that is correct or how it works.

in regards to ferderal agencies the its the same again pakistan is a medium sized developing country but nothig compared to the usa. an example being i doubt pakista has a National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA)
im not sure about a DIA equivelant, i have checked i cant find anything, do you know?
prism somthing only the "5" usa, canada,uk, austrailia, new zealand are capable of, mind you they report back to the the nsa,cia and dia. not even china is capable of somthing like prism. they would have find the same backdoor the usa uses to gather information to get info from devices and find ways to get into servers.
when you said you worked as 902 is that for the asis? also is the isi being proped up or is it actually good as compared to other permier inteligance agencies.
 
.
the usa is a huge country with cutting edge technology. take us (the UK) for example we dont have much inteligance agencies. but the ones we do have do have a notorious reputation. in regards to private contractors then i have no idea how the isi operates or manages them if they even do, nor do i assume you do to or anyone on the forum knows if that is correct or how it works.

in regards to ferderal agencies the its the same again pakistan is a medium sized developing country but nothig compared to the usa. an example being i doubt pakista has a National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA)
im not sure about a DIA equivelant, i have checked i cant find anything, do you know?
prism somthing only the "5" usa, canada,uk, austrailia, new zealand are capable of, mind you they report back to the the nsa,cia and dia. not even china is capable of somthing like prism. they would have find the same backdoor the usa uses to gather information to get info from devices and find ways to get into servers.
when you said you worked as 902 is that for the asis? also is the isi being proped up or is it actually good as compared to other permier inteligance agencies.

Well, perhaps my point were not put clear again.....Well, my reply to your post is the first thing I did in the morning.

It would be out of any agency reach, any agency or government (US Intel Community) included if a country want to do a full spectrum intelligence monitoring, it's the same as IRS (US Tax office) or ATO (Australian Tax Office) want to audit ALL of the registered company in their respective country, It cannot be done (actually, I could be done but I will take ages to do so). Unless you use your population to monitor your own population. That's where the private contractor comes in.

In the US case, it's a bit different, the American did not think about it like that, the reason why they started using Private Contractor is simply because the congress does not allow Federal Agency Spying on US Citizen within US Soil. if they were to be done, they would need Justice Department and FBI Approval (Warrants and Judge) and this basically represent a setback to USIC. Hence the Private Contractor was born

What is a Private Contractor does is they will provide offsite (Off Government building) intelligence support/solution as well as data gathering. What they do is they will process the data either they or US Government gathered on the Behalf of US intelligence agency. Say if Facebook gave the Justice Department a list of name that filter thru their own server, and Justice Department will simply farm out those processing job to consulting firm (Such as Booz, Allen, Hamilton) and they will process them and sort them and then turn the raw data into intelligence information.

There are over 1,200 company that hold TS/SCI clearance and pursumably engage in Intelligence Operation on behalf of the US government.Big names such as Kellogg, Dell, they are the lead player of US intelligence private sector.

PRISM works because it have a massive background of back channel network and mostly civilian to free out the job of governmental agency. The problem I can see is, Pakistani Intelligence is too centralize to carry out such massive operation, if they do, they will simply be pre-occupied totally by such program and you will have a diminished foreign intelligence capability. Unless Pakistani, like the American, farming out their intelligence assignment to private contractor, this can never be done. And being a centralized organisation, they don't farm out intelligence job to other governmental agency, it would be quite clear the Pakistani Government won't farm out the responsibility to private company.

And god no, I am not an ASIS agent. (They are quite literally a bunch of Imbecil, they are not allow to carry weapon until recently because they are even worse than the Police......)

Special forces soldier who pulled gun on female ASIS agent in Afghanistan intended it as threat - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Anyway, I was a US Service Member, I used to work with US Army Counterintelligence Service. 902 Military Intelligence Group, I was a S-2 (intelligence Officer) with the group and my job is to provide Intelligence Support to any unit I worked with, mostly JSOC.

I wrote quite a few piece about Intelligence and Counterintelligence here on PDF, you may want to check them out...

Understanding Counter-Intelligence (Counter-HUMINT)
Understanding Human Intelligence (HUMINT) Part 2 - Conducting HUMINT OPs
Understanding Human Intelligence (HUMINT) - Part 1
 
.
Well, perhaps my point were not put clear again.....Well, my reply to your post is the first thing I did in the morning.

It would be out of any agency reach, any agency or government (US Intel Community) included if a country want to do a full spectrum intelligence monitoring, it's the same as IRS (US Tax office) or ATO (Australian Tax Office) want to audit ALL of the registered company in their respective country, It cannot be done (actually, I could be done but I will take ages to do so). Unless you use your population to monitor your own population. That's where the private contractor comes in.

In the US case, it's a bit different, the American did not think about it like that, the reason why they started using Private Contractor is simply because the congress does not allow Federal Agency Spying on US Citizen within US Soil. if they were to be done, they would need Justice Department and FBI Approval (Warrants and Judge) and this basically represent a setback to USIC. Hence the Private Contractor was born

What is a Private Contractor does is they will provide offsite (Off Government building) intelligence support/solution as well as data gathering. What they do is they will process the data either they or US Government gathered on the Behalf of US intelligence agency. Say if Facebook gave the Justice Department a list of name that filter thru their own server, and Justice Department will simply farm out those processing job to consulting firm (Such as Booz, Allen, Hamilton) and they will process them and sort them and then turn the raw data into intelligence information.

There are over 1,200 company that hold TS/SCI clearance and pursumably engage in Intelligence Operation on behalf of the US government.Big names such as Kellogg, Dell, they are the lead player of US intelligence private sector.

PRISM works because it have a massive background of back channel network and mostly civilian to free out the job of governmental agency. The problem I can see is, Pakistani Intelligence is too centralize to carry out such massive operation, if they do, they will simply be pre-occupied totally by such program and you will have a diminished foreign intelligence capability. Unless Pakistani, like the American, farming out their intelligence assignment to private contractor, this can never be done. And being a centralized organisation, they don't farm out intelligence job to other governmental agency, it would be quite clear the Pakistani Government won't farm out the responsibility to private company.

And god no, I am not an ASIS agent. (They are quite literally a bunch of Imbecil, they are not allow to carry weapon until recently because they are even worse than the Police......)

Special forces soldier who pulled gun on female ASIS agent in Afghanistan intended it as threat - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Anyway, I was a US Service Member, I used to work with US Army Counterintelligence Service. 902 Military Intelligence Group, I was a S-2 (intelligence Officer) with the group and my job is to provide Intelligence Support to any unit I worked with, mostly JSOC.

I wrote quite a few piece about Intelligence and Counterintelligence here on PDF, you may want to check them out...

Understanding Counter-Intelligence (Counter-HUMINT)
Understanding Human Intelligence (HUMINT) Part 2 - Conducting HUMINT OPs
Understanding Human Intelligence (HUMINT) - Part 1
All that is good and we're thankful for your insights on this topic, but you did not comment on your impression of the ISI when you worked with them. How do you think they fare when compared with other premier intelligence agencies? Roughly equal, below or above? Professionalism, work ethics, tradecraft, resourcefulness etc.
 
.
I hope we're running supercomputers of speeds in PFLOPS.:enjoy:
good one...... i dont see any SDR based capabilities in radio comms let alone mid tech manpacks - you are talking of huge leaps... just trying to keep people realistic.
 
.
good one...... i dont see any SDR based capabilities in radio comms let alone mid tech manpacks - you are talking of huge leaps... just trying to keep people realistic.
Not sure what you're on about mate. We have some domestic companies marketing software defined radios. Other than that, Pakistan military signed a deal with Aselsan from Turkey worth $254 back in 2010 for software defined radios to be produced in Pakistan. Aselsan signed agreements with Pakistan worth 254 million $

You can find other comm equipment produced in Pakistan with a simple google search.
 
. .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom