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Pakistani High court orders Musharraf's arrest.

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What a sham trial.

If I were him I'd be casually smoking a Havana and giving all those black coats the middle finger



Until they go after rental rajas, 10 percents and maulana diesels I won't take the court too seriously. But that's just me

He fought for his country in uniform and in civilian garb despite mistakes, his performance brought more results than the treacherous and unpatriotic goons who came out of hiding

Members here with military background shouldnt support musharaf like this. By running away from court like a gedar with tail between his legs, he has brought shame and disgrace to the army institution, to the brave commandos. Musharaf should have gracefully let himself arrested instead of embarrasing his mother institution...

My salaute to judiciary, i hope the gedar would be trialed for treason and ultimately hanged. Ameen
 
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I am not a law expert, but what i have asked from some lawyers and also heard it from different talk shows (serious analysts), following are the points, which should be considered while discussions.

1. This particular case in which Musharraf bail was cancelled is about Judges house arrest, its not that famous article 6 treason case.
2. This is a bailable offense, and any accuse who himself appear before the court has the right of bail. In other words, its kind of mandatory for court to grant bail.
3. Only those lawyers can take part in court proceedings, who are formally the part of either defense council or the lawyers of the party, who have filed the plea.
4. All over the world in judicial proceedings, neutrality of judges is utmost important. If in anyway, the hearing judge or judges are a party themselves, they transfer the case to neutral judges.
5. In no way, the judge should ever be sound or feel like taking side with any of the contesting party. Therefore judges usually never gave any remarks about any party what so ever. Its their final decision based on facts, proofs in the light of law, which speaks in the end.
6. FIR is needed to be registered by the suffered party against accused, which forms the base of the trial.
7. Judges themselves cannot include clauses during the course of the trial.

Now, keeping above points in mind, we can conclude very easy, that justice is not being properly served in the case of Musharraf.

* In this case, there is no FIR against Musharraf.
* Out of 60 Judges, who were allegedly arrested after 2007 emergency, none have filed a case or complaint against Musharraf.
* Obviously under the law, no 3rd party other then the actual sufferers can file a plea against the accused.
* The judge who heard the case was the Rawalpindi Bar president in 2007, he was heading lawyers movement against Musharraf. So, going by the principle of neutrality, he is not neutral and hence should not have hear the case in first place.
* During the hearings, Judge made specific remarks against Musharraf, hence take side with the plaintiff, which made him biased towards the defendant. No law of the world allows this that judge himself becomes a party, hence deny the defendant "the right of fair trial".
* During the court proceedings, as the judge clearly knew that he can not order Musharraf arrest in current scenario, he conveniently himself added "anti terrorism clauses" in the case, which is a non-bailable offense.
* It is customary for the courts all around the world to ensure an environment, where both plaintiff and accused feel secure, and no external pressure what so ever effects or pressurized the proceeding of the court. In this case as happened in past few days many times, a large number of lawyers from Islamabad / Rawalpindi bar gathered outside and within court room. They were chanting slogans against Musharraf, and many times tried to personally assaulted him. This is something against the honor of the court. If the accused and his defense council feel insecure even within court room, how can the justice be served.
The judge did nothing in this regard, instead he encourage the violent lawyers by allowing them to speak on the behalf of plaintiff. Those lawyers who were not part of proceedings actually spoke against accused, judge not only allowed them but also appreciate them. How on earth, such trend is being followed in Pakistani judiciary?
Example after example are coming of Judge gardi and Wukla gardi. Arslan Iftikhar case, TuQ case, Memo-gate and now Musharraf case. Judges are setting some dark examples, which will hurt Pakistan very badly in the course of the history. This is a country where persons like Sufi Mohammad and Maulana Abdul Aziz are set free by the courts. Shah Zain Bugti caught with truck loads of illegal weapons is set free. Traitors, who have vowed to take up arms against Pakistan aree given protocol in the name of justice, and former COAS and President is denied even a fair trial, this is Pakistan and sadly yes, i am its citizen.

PS 1: In Pakistani law, the president has immunity against any lawsuits, it includes all those orders which he passed during his tenure as President of Pakistan.
PS 2: Judges were in their houses, no body ever arrested them. There is not an order or witness produced by the plaintiff in this regard.

Regarding bail: Its in the discretion of the judge. He CAN not grant bail. In this case he asked the investigating officer: Is Musharraf cooperating with you? The officer said: No, the last time I asked him questions he said I will only answer questions in court. The judge, took this as a sign of non-cooperation and declared his bail cancelled. He was granted bail and then it was cancelled.

Regarding Nature of offence: The High court judge has extended this matter to a terrorism charge which may lead up to life imprisonment, he cited several definitions of terrorism and explained how his act fits into those definitions.

Regarding no FIR: This case is based on a petition of Supreme Court Advocate Ghumman. Which as per the IHC records states that Ghumman tried to file an FIR but the SHO refused and hence he went to a session's judge on their order FIR WAS registered on 11.08.2009 by Ghumman who cited various legal reasons for doing so - mostly of public interest.

Where I would agree with you is adding the terrorism clause. That seems inventive thinking on the part of the IHC and destroys the confidence that the judiciary has built in the eyes of the public. Supreme Court would do well not to be swayed by the swathe of anti-Musharraf atmosphere in all of Pakistan thinking that just because most Pakistanis are anti-Musharraf and his misery is downright enjoyed by most, this would be okay too. Supreme Court handled Gilani's case by the book and this case should also be handled by the book.
 
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Pakistanis should try him and make him accountable for his irresponsible adventures during Kargil which resulted in the death of many Pakistani foot soldiers, many of whom didn't even get the proper burial in Pakistan that they deserved.
 
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By running away from court like a gedar with tail between his legs, he has brought shame and disgrace to the army institution, to the brave commandos. Musharaf should have gracefully let himself arrested instead of embarrasing his mother institution...

I agree with this part.
 
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Members here with military background shouldnt support musharaf like this. By running away from court like a gedar with tail between his legs, he has brought shame and disgrace to the army institution, to the brave commandos. Musharaf should have gracefully let himself arrested instead of embarrasing his mother institution...

My salaute to judiciary, i hope the gedar would be trialed for treason and ultimately hanged. Ameen
Well people will come out of new theory, if he offered arrest...then you guys say...police caught him like chicken ...so its never ending story....
damn if you do...
 
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Members here with military background shouldnt support musharaf like this. By running away from court like a gedar with tail between his legs, he has brought shame and disgrace to the army institution, to the brave commandos. Musharaf should have gracefully let himself arrested instead of embarrasing his mother institution...

My salaute to judiciary, i hope the gedar would be trialed for treason and ultimately hanged. Ameen

As cited above, due to the terrorism charge levied, I'm sure history would judge this incident very differently. He had legal justifications to leave the court room. There was a security concern. He has still not been arrested, which animal would you equate them with?
 
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Pakistanis should try him and make him accountable for his irresponsible adventures during Kargil which resulted in the death of many Pakistani foot soldiers, many of whom didn't even get the proper burial in Pakistan that they deserved.
When you guys bring Indra Gandhi for sponsoring terrorism in Bangladesh 1971 ?
 
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I didnt mention him did i??
I said in june 2014 the non regional forces wll leave n the burden upon the freedom fighters will reduce n they will be more then ready to fight against the evil with in the region.

Yes! You did mention him, anyway's nice story, keep it rolling.
 
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Pakistanis should try him and make him accountable for his irresponsible adventures during Kargil which resulted in the death of many Pakistani foot soldiers, many of whom didn't even get the proper burial in Pakistan that they deserved.

There is no case on that.

Why do you think he's being tried on trumped up charges converting an order of house arrest to a terrorism charge?

On a few things people actually acknowledge being supportive, which includes Kargil but never really comes up as much as Akbar Bugti and Lal Masjid.

Bugti was a terrorist and should have been killed sooner

Lal Masjid was not a house of God, but a house of terrorists and should have been attacked sooner.

There is no case on such things and hence they have picked the line of chasing him after his Nov 3, 2007 actions in which there is some case.
 
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There is no case on that.

Why do you think he's being tried on trumped up charges converting an order of house arrest to a terrorism charge?

On a few things people actually acknowledge being supportive, which includes Kargil but never really comes up as much as Akbar Bugti and Lal Masjid.

Bugti was a terrorist and should have been killed sooner

Lal Masjid was not a house of God, but a house of terrorists and should have been attacked sooner.

There is no case on such things and hence they have picked the line of chasing him after his Nov 3, 2007 actions in which there is some case.
What about Musharaf's acceptance of his crime of selling Pakistanis to USA, He accepted that in his book , and all Mushi supporter some how try to paint Lal masjid incident as anti terror Operation , which was infact a far away from reality , Mushi's background is against him , He never achieved anything remarkable for Pakistan in his whole military career . Its a time that military supporters must not try to involve military in Pakistan's politics , musharaf is a traitor , a murderer , a adventurer , a defeated General , and a person who Hijacked and used our whole nation for his own interest , Today Pakistan is in danger due to him , Today Pakistan is is War due to him , Today we are being attacked by drones due to him . So Plz Mushi supporters , Do feel some shame , and stop supporting a traitor .
 
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I know that. I was just giving my opinion. I don't expect Pakistanis to agree to that.

I hold only two things against him. His moves against the judiciary and giving NRO to Zardari n gang. Otherwise I think he is still the best leader to have come to power in Pakistan after Jinnah.

Mind you he hasn't got much competition, given the really pathetic state of our leaders. He can only be bested by Imran Khan.

Continued here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...stan-president-pervez-musharraf-arrested.html
 
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- Yahya had no right to become head of state, if he did forcibly occupy that chair he became THE decision maker. Going through articles and books written about that time it becomes clear that Yahya was least bothered by whats happening in East Pakistan. He was having orgies (even ex-service men mention that) DURING the war. I mean can there be more shameless creature? What right PA has to overthrow democratic govt when they protected the Nero of Pk? After losing that war another dictator was ready to declare martial law (Shujah Nawaz's book).
Rationally, whether Yahya had the right or not is not the reason for the breakup of Pakistan. Its a fact that he was the President of Pakistan then. The question is, why did Bhutto not give in to Mujeeb's clear majority which was won through the most fair elections conducted by Yahya Khan's government? Secondly, don't confuse Gen. Niazi's excesses with women with Yahya Khan. Yahya Khan had an affair or two outside of his marriage. Not sure where you have heard stories about sexual excesses as you describe them.

Even Mujeeb didn't expect that this thing will be dragged so far. Many today think that as a policy decision PA had decided that East Pakistan is a liability and deliberately did not try to seriously tackle the issue. Seriously speaking I also think on the same lines today. Far Far too many indications that PA never took the threat seriously. Just look at the rhetoric coming from Tiger Niazi who actually says in a later interview that (Translate) " Defeat was certain as India had released Sweet smelling women" He also quipped that "Jawans who fight and sleep in Bengal can't be expected to go to Jehlum for sex". Put it in the perspective of the shameful episode of rapes in '71. General Tikka (or was that Yahya?) famously said we want he land not the people SAME thing Musharraf is saying about Baluchistan. I mean do these dimwit ever learn?

I am not sure what you are suggesting here. I have been around and this is the first time that I have heard that the Army had decided that EP was a liability. Who said this and when? It just looks like you are picking things from here and there to avoid addressing the point that Bhutto's selfish stubbornness was the reason that EP split up. Secondly, do not incorrectly read into the statements. Musharraf is not saying or even alluding that we only care about the land of Balochistan. EP was separated by thousands of miles from the West. We did not have the contiguity to sustain our force levels. In Balochistan, we are doing two things. One is to ensure that we maintain a strong security presence and second is to put development into the process. This is how things will have to work out.


Both Bhutto and Mujeeb were imprisoned and at one time both were sure they will be killed. Bhutto can be blamed for many things but breaking Pakistan is not one of them. The blame stops at Yahya and PA. They were in-charge and they were supposed to tackle this problem.

Clearly your opinion and one that is severely devoid of facts. An objective analysis of demand for a separate homeland by the East Pakistanis from Pakistan started when despite winning the elections, Bhutto and his team did not allow the government of Yahya to let Mujeeb form the national government because in the West, Bhutto's party had the majority, but the fact is that having been a politcian, Bhutto knew its only the absolute majority that matters. This was disregarded. I did not conjure up the numerous news reports covering statements made by Bhutto about his stand on the issue.


- Baluchis are a tribals, the institute of sardars exists for hundred of years and no one can force them to quit it. If Federation tries to force them it will be acting exactly like Britishers and their 'White Man's Burden'. Federation can only provide infrastructure and act as a catalyst in development of that area (which Federation never did for some reason). The insurgency exists because Baluch honor has been slighted by murdering Bugti. For all their evils Sardars still lead and thats the fact on ground.

So should this unjust, backward and dehumanizing system be allowed to carry on for another few hundreds of years? The Kalpars get murdered and persecuted and driven away from their lands, and the GoP should just stand by letting the Sardars be the sardars? Is that your solution? The sardars have inflicted more pain and grief on their own people than the Government of Pakistan. When does this madness stop? It never will because the Sardars have their progeny already ready to take over the fiefdoms. One more thing on this issue, the Federation has done nothing but support infrastructure projects. But it really does not help when the construction projects are being raided and the workers being killed. The situation is a classic egg or the chicken issue. If the GoP is being blamed, then the same needs to be apportioned to the Sardars.
Sardars have good reason to blame Federation, Baluchis have been deprived. There is no doubt about it.

Agreed, but what has happened to the billions of rupees that have been paid directly to the Sardars in the past 5 decades? What is there to show for it?

Whats extra constitutional when practically there is no Govt (or has been for that matter) in most of Baluchistan?
Well the answer to this is another question, which is, why have the sardars not allowed the government to run the province? My friend, I lived in Quetta for many years. I got out of the city too. Balochistan works where there is even a rudimentary government, so as an example Quetta works. Not in the best way, but it works. Go outside, into any of the deras/illaqay of the Sardars, no government infrastructure is allowed. Because it is truly run as a fief. The GoP can never show itself to be doing some good for the people of Balochistan, because the Sardars don't let the Government do things as it does elsewhere in Pakistan. The moment some Sardar has a problem with the government, immediately disruptive activities start.

Sardars in their capacity were not progressive but there was a lot Federation could have done which it didn't. From roads to schools to hospitals Baluchistan has been at the last place. The situation is so bad that people are now fighting this war knowing full well that they won't survive it and the geo-politics ensure that no one will help from outside (in a meaningful way). Do you have any idea how deprived a person has to be to knowingly throw his life away?

Because the Federation used the approach which you have suggested above, i.e. funnel aid through the Sardars. It has not worked and has added to the misery of the people yet giving more power and resources to their Sardars.


- An election could have been called within 3 months of takeover which no dictator did as they wanted to rule. The fundamental problem is that there is a culture in PA which treats civilians like a lower life form and has decided that these lower life forms can not be allowed to take part in any decision making process. During dictator's era the whole top hierarchy of Army benefits from getting key positions in public organizations.

Its actually pretty interesting to read your views because they are so virulently anti-army. Army has doubts about the ability of the "politicians" to govern. These "politicians" are not equal to "civilians". The Army thrives on the basis of the very civilians who join its ranks. The Army provides services in support of these very "civilians". In all of the military governments, at least in Pakistan, a major part of the government machinery is comprised bureaucrats who are unelected "civilians". They are part of the decision making process where it is deemed appropriate. So this perception of Army looking down on civilians is essentially a whipping stick to beat the Army with.

Any army man who takes part (or has taken part) in overthrowing a constitutionally elected govt is a criminal and a traitor. That man has actively taken part in breakdown of law and order and creating an environment where different factions of this country feel compelled to use violent means for their genuine concerns. That man has also done his part in making this land of pure a banana republic and PA a laughing stock.

Yes in an ideal world you may be right, but not in the case of Pakistan where political graft, mis-governance and utter disregard for the welfare of citizens of Pakistan starts creating problems for the national security. One only needs to look back at all of the soft coups of the 90s that were engineered by the Army to understand why Army intervenes directly or indirectly. Through out the 90s, Pakistan was at the precipice of a massive fiscal collapse. When such things happen, it starts impacting national security which is the purview of the military and leads to pressure or direct action. If you care to only live in the ideal world and also in a state of denial, then you would stick to your line above. There are real reasons as to why the Army carries out extra-constitutional actions. Just making pronouncements such as the one above will not stop the Army in the future. The only way out is good governance and economic performance by the civilian governments.

And mind it there won't be another Martial law. If it comes (and I dread that day) it will shame Zia's despotic era by miles as it will be impossible to handle the public without using violence. That martial law will likely see Pakistanis fighting against their own Army. PA has no saving grace now, Awam was drilled for decades about Barkaats of Jehad and most consider PA American touts who have back stabbed the Mujahideen.

I don't wish for one but if it does happen, it will without a doubt be a bloody one. Nobody will repeat Musharraf's mistake of letting his detractors go free.

Lal Mosque was the water-shed moment, a dark stain which will never go away and can never be justified.

Lal Masjid operation was the need of the hour. Our hypocritical nation and news media is all silent and forget their own role in the prodding and pushing of the government to take action (which it did after 6 months of harassment by the militants).
If Pakistan is to survive as a Country, such challenges have to be taken face on and put down. Its nothing but a fitna of a few bringing instability to the entire Country. Had the military not taken action, every local masjid would have been running its own parallel judicial system. If you like anarchy, then by all means allow such groups to set parallel governments in the future.


PA has declared every single political party a traitor at one time or another. PPP, PMLN, ANP, Baluchistan and Sindhi nationals, MQM and any other party which dares to seek a democratic solution. Baluchistan and KPK are vehemently against PA for obvious reasons. PA always had the support of religious right and it has lost it after U-Turn on Taliban, leftists were already against PA ever since Bhutto's hanging. Which segment of this society is going to accept Martial Law?
Martial law is not a popularity contest. There is a reason it is called "martial" and it is "enforced", otherwise if we were to look for support for it from any segment of society, the military might as well run in the elections. The Army has allowed democracy to run its course and during this time good governance has fallen short. I am not suggesting that democracy is not an option. I do not share the ideas that you put forth. ML can happen in the future if things go from bad to worse. I hope and pray it does not, but the realist in me suggests that it is a possibility.

- Chief can declare he was threatened and most will believe him. Chief can target Musharraf on 2nd emergency which does not include him or other judges.

So where does that leave the integrity of the CJP? He was threatened so he signed the PCO, ok I can agree with that logic. However if he was and is for the rule of law then what stopped him from resigning later on? Afterall is that not what you say to officers of the Pakistan Army who retire and get their benefits and then bad mouth the military rule that if they had such gripes, why did they not quit while in service?

So what justice and "setting things right" are we talking about here?

What about Musharaf's acceptance of his crime of selling Pakistanis to USA, He accepted that in his book , and all Mushi supporter some how try to paint Lal masjid incident as anti terror Operation , which was infact a far away from reality , Mushi's background is against him , He never achieved anything remarkable for Pakistan in his whole military career . Its a time that military supporters must not try to involve military in Pakistan's politics , musharaf is a traitor , a murderer , a adventurer , a defeated General , and a person who Hijacked and used our whole nation for his own interest , Today Pakistan is in danger due to him , Today Pakistan is is War due to him , Today we are being attacked by drones due to him . So Plz Mushi supporters , Do feel some shame , and stop supporting a traitor .

Which Pakistani has he sold? Do you have names? Do you have proof? Do their families have proof? The entire thought process is so emotionally convoluted that no amount of reason will satisfy you.
 
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