Pakistani forces kills 25 militants in airstrikes: Army

[21 Dec 2012]

Some dissent is normal, and indeed suitable, but the overall narrative must remain under control, Sir. Surely you, of all people, must already know that.

Have you heard of the ISPR. Pakistanis think they won all wars. How much more control can there be?

 

[EagleEyes]

When you have a country in a shit mess you have to decide, does it really matter who gets killed in air strike when in that region the innocents are ordered to clear...?

Sounds shitty but these are the sacrifices we have to make.

 

[ZYXW]

KEEP KILLING THEM........

I have never understood when people celebrate murders and violence. There should be compassion and empathy, these were people whose circumstances, lack of a proper and nurturing surrounding, lack of an education led them on a path on which not only did they kill innocent people but die at the hands of the military like this. The root of this should be addressed. Killing people and then taking pride in it is ignorance. I understand the action is necessary, but there is never a reason to be proud about it. Lol and you hold up the Pakistani flag to that

 

[illusion8]

Suspected? Not confirmed? And yet killed, on suspicion?

Nice to see someone question it, but at least in Pakistan's case one can assume that ground based intelligence could have identified the targets. American drones have killed hundreds in Pakistan and Yemen purely based on drone footage and suspicious activity. Who conducts trials on those killed and declares them guilty is a more valid question...not the geek who operates the joystick for sure?

 

[araz]

Some dissent is normal, and indeed suitable, but the overall narrative must remain under control, Sir. Surely you, of all people, must already know that.

While I see the point you are trying to make the situation is a difficult one. We have an extensive network of field intelligence on ground which alerts us to certain gatherings. These are visually verified and attacks ordered. The problems arise when the houses chosen for gatherings contian the family of the occupant. This sometimes is not known about and this is what gives rise to collateral damage. I know of instances where targeting of big wigs in the area has been abandoned due to visble presence of family members/noncombatants inspite of the value of the target. So yes as far as can be ascertained. We take these into account but not if we dont know about it.

 

[VCheng]

When you have a country in a shit mess you have to decide, does it really matter who gets killed in air strike when in that region the innocents are ordered to clear...?

Sounds shitty but these are the sacrifices we have to make.

While I see the point you are trying to make the situation is a difficult one. We have an extensive network of field intelligence on ground which alerts us to certain gatherings. These are visually verified and attacks ordered. The problems arise when the houses chosen for gatherings contian the family of the occupant. This sometimes is not known about and this is what gives rise to collateral damage. I know of instances where targeting of big wigs in the area has been abandoned due to visble presence of family members/noncombatants inspite of the value of the target. So yes as far as can be ascertained. We take these into account but not if we dont know about it.

Sirs, I am perfectly fine with the military doing what it is doing in FATA. All I am saying is to pay due attention not to lose control of the public narrative. We know that the TTP and their sympathizers have a grass roots publicity machine and while it has been disrupted, it remains a formidable opponent in the media war. That is why I picked on the word "suspected" because I wanted to highlight the ramifications of not countering it, not to criticize the military operation. I hope I made myself a little bit clearer.

Nice to see someone question it, but at least in Pakistan's case one can assume that ground based intelligence could have identified the targets. American drones have killed hundreds in Pakistan and Yemen purely based on drone footage and suspicious activity. Who conducts trials on those killed and declares them guilty is a more valid question...not the geek who operates the joystick for sure?

I do not want the Pakistan Army being as hated in their own country as the Evil Murrikans are, that is all..

 

[Green Angel]

I have never understood when people celebrate murders and violence. There should be compassion and empathy, these were people whose circumstances, lack of a proper and nurturing surrounding, lack of an education led them on a path on which not only did they kill innocent people but die at the hands of the military like this. The root of this should be addressed. Killing people and then taking pride in it is ignorance. I understand the action is necessary, but there is never a reason to be proud about it. Lol and you hold up the Pakistani flag to that

They are terrorist, Percentage of innocent deaths decreaing,Your sympathy vote should be for family members of innocents, whom the terrorist have killed in BOMB blast in Pakistan they are more than 50,000 died due to terrorist attacks.

 

[ZYXW]

They are terrorist, Percentage of innocent deaths decreaing,Your sympathy vote should be for family members of innocents, whom the terrorist have killed in BOMB blast in Pakistan they are more than 50,000 died due to terrorist attacks.

You absolutely missed the point of what I am saying: The mainstream global media has trained people to cheer at the death of a terrorist and be upset at that of an innocent. While I understand that latter, the former is a sign of ignorance. No one is born a terrorist. It is important to sympathize with the soul that lost its way and try to understand why that happened, then to try to fix that thereby addressing the root of the problem. Instead, we picked up weapons, shot them and gave ourselves a pat on the back. The life of everyone (terrorist or not) is vital and not something for us as humans to take away. Therefore, violence should never be sanctioned and an option, not for the state and not for the terrorists. Now I understand the system works differently and I respect that. I know killing them is necessary. But there is no need to take pride in that, ever. A soul, due to the circumstances the country it was in, lost its way and then was dismissed from the world in such a harsh way, that's something to empathize with.

 

[VCheng]

You absolutely missed the point of what I am saying: The mainstream global media has trained people to cheer at the death of a terrorist and be upset at that of an innocent. While I understand that latter, the former is a sign of ignorance. No one is born a terrorist. It is important to sympathize with the soul that lost its way and try to understand why that happened, then to try to fix that thereby addressing the root of the problem. Instead, we picked up weapons, shot them and gave ourselves a pat on the back. The life of everyone (terrorist or not) is vital and not something for us as humans to take away. Therefore, violence should never be sanctioned and an option, not for the state and not for the terrorists. Now I understand the system works differently and I respect that. I know killing them is necessary. But there is no need to take pride in that, ever. A soul, due to the circumstances the country it was in, lost its way and then was dismissed from the world in such a harsh way, that's something to empathize with.

You must believe in this then:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

(John Donne)

 

[ZYXW]

You must believe in this then:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

(John Donne)

Yes, everything is interconnected. But, I also don't believe that there is "good" and "bad". Those I think of as mere constructs of society. There is, however, that which is harmful for us in society because it hinders our coexistence as a species and biologically speaking (all constructs aside) our main goal in this world is to survive as a species. That is why harmlessness is ideal, nothing to do with good or bad. There are just things we as humans prefer over others. A very smart woman once told me: a moral compass is good for nothing but as a paperweight.

 

[I.R.A]

If our forces have respected and never harmed family of Mullah Radio abandoned by him in Swat to save his own life, then I am sure they won't harm any other's knowingly.

And as far as this media goes, they have always been like this, from Karachi to Khyber they were never sure about which political party, which banned organisation, though one thing they are keen to show with 100% surety is "Aik bar phir (insert news channel name of your choice) nay apni riwayat barkara rakhty huy nazreen tak yeh khabar sab say phely ponchai" and this ticker will flash on tv screen for 101 times, unless nazreen get fed up and switch to Cartoon network.

 

[illusion8]

Sirs, I am perfectly fine with the military doing what it is doing in FATA. All I am saying is to pay due attention not to lose control of the public narrative. We know that the TTP and their sympathizers have a grass roots publicity machine and while it has been disrupted, it remains a formidable opponent in the media war. That is why I picked on the word "suspected" because I wanted to highlight the ramifications of not countering it, not to criticize the military operation. I hope I made myself a little bit clearer.



I do not want the Pakistan Army being as hated in their own country as the Evil Murrikans are, that is all..

Military strikes using heavy equipment and air strikes in civilian areas will create animosity at some level, whatever the narrative be...but one must surely praise PA's media management and perception creation. Examples of their winning campaign is very much evident on PDF and on Pakistani media, especially their campaigns against the political parties. Pakistani masses are floored.

 

[araz]

Sirs, I am perfectly fine with the military doing what it is doing in FATA. All I am saying is to pay due attention not to lose control of the public narrative. We know that the TTP and their sympathizers have a grass roots publicity machine and while it has been disrupted, it remains a formidable opponent in the media war. That is why I picked on the word "suspected" because I wanted to highlight the ramifications of not countering it, not to criticize the military operation. I hope I made myself a little bit clearer.



I do not want the Pakistan Army being as hated in their own country as the Evil Murrikans are, that is all..

A very fair point and I think PA has finally awoken to this need. To this aspect. We can always do more and be more open but obviously there are limits beyond which we will not go . After all this is a war.
As to the TTP propaganda machine mullah FMs radio broadcasts are there no more. There publicity juggernaut has also been given a telling blow so lets see what happens. I know it sounds primitive but what we need is a mqn at the top who knows Quran and Hadeeth and can answer all these misguided people. Neither Noora nor Ghaddari has any of the necessary talent and they are so scared of this fhat they would much rather accomodat3 mullah diesel and his ilm to safeguard against that very necessity.
A

 

[VCheng]

Yes, everything is interconnected. But, I also don't believe that there is "good" and "bad". Those I think of as mere constructs of society. There is, however, that which is harmful for us in society because it hinders our coexistence as a species and biologically speaking (all constructs aside) our main goal in this world is to survive as a species. That is why harmlessness is ideal, nothing to do with good or bad. There are just things we as humans prefer over others. A very smart woman once told me: a moral compass is good for nothing but as a paperweight.

If "good" and "bad" are mere constructs of society, then all "divine" religions that are based on this distinction must also be so by inference. If biologically our survival as a species is the main goal, then reproduction must be part of it, and therefore any and all steps to ensure survival for their offspring becomes every individual parent's duty. Take away the moral compass to use as a paperweight, and you can now see where your line of reasoning leads.

Military strikes using heavy equipment and air strikes in civilian areas will create animosity at some level, whatever the narrative be...but one must surely praise PA's media management and perception creation. Examples of their winning campaign is very much evident on PDF and on Pakistani media, especially their campaigns against the political parties. Pakistani masses are floored.

The role of the media in winning wars must never be underestimated.

AVery fait point and I think PA has finay awoke. To this aspect. We can always do more and be more open but obviously there are limits beyond which we will not go . Afterall this is a war.
A

It is good that PA is awake to this aspect finally, but just keep in mind that the TTP's media machine is devastatingly effective on a largely ignorant, uneducated and hyper-religious population, and they have a headstart. Just take a good look around PDF as a microcosmic example of that fact, SIr.

 

[!eon]

Suspected? Not confirmed? And yet killed, on suspicion?

I always think, who counts them
The numbers, they had been showing since years, I doubt they would cross the total population of Pakistan.