Pakistani Desi Liberals

[Apprentice]

Do you know that non-Muslims and "secularists" also fought in the Pakistan Army in the 1965 and 1971 wars?

Doesn't mean anything. There were Jews in Hazrat Muhammad (saw)'s army too. And there were many Hindus in Mahmud Ghaznavi's Army too. 5 of the 12 generals in his Army were Hindu in fact.

 

[sbh02]

Doesn't mean anything. There were Jews in Hazrat Muhammad (saw)'s army too. And there were many Hindus in Mahmud Ghaznavi's Army too. 5 of the 12 generals in his Army were Hindu in fact.

My chachu was a "liberal" who was in the Pakistani Airforce as a Flight Lieutenant based in Chittagong, East Pakistan; and he embraced shahadat in the 1971 defending this motherland. He was awarded a Sitare-e-Jurat by the Pakistan government. So no one can tell me that liberals/secularists cannot be patriots to the country.

 

[Apprentice]

My chachu was a "liberal" who was in the Pakistani Airforce as a Flight Lieutenant based in Chittagong, East Pakistan; and he embraced shahadat in the 1971 defending this motherland. He was awarded a Sitare-e-Jurat by the Pakistan government. So no one can tell me that liberals/secularists cannot be patriots to the country.

I can tell you that only a minority of secularists/liberals are patriots. I say this after years of reading articles and comments by Pakistani liberals and comparing them with articles/comments by Pakistani islamists

My chachu was a "liberal" who was in the Pakistani Airforce as a Flight Lieutenant based in Chittagong, East Pakistan; and he embraced shahadat in the 1971 defending this motherland. He was awarded a Sitare-e-Jurat by the Pakistan government. So no one can tell me that liberals/secularists cannot be patriots to the country.

Btw according to liberals ur chachu was a war criminal and a lusty rapist of bengali girls. Its the Islamists who defended the honour of Pak Army in 1971. When PTV showed Pak Army surrender footage it was the JI boys who smashed the TV screens in the streets so that no one would watch it.

 

[sbh02]

I can tell you that only a minority of secularists/liberals are patriots. I say this after years of reading articles and comments by Pakistani liberals and comparing them with articles/comments by islamists

Can you answer the following questions:

a) What the total population of secularists/liberals in Pakistan?

b) What is the population of Pakistan bashers that are secularists/liberals?

If you cannot answer a) and b), how can you claim only a minority of secularists/liberals are patriots?

Imran Khan came out with a statement yesterday that the Pakistan Army has been killing Pashtuns in the WOT, Balochs and Bangalis in East Pakistan in the past. He isn't liberal either. There are the like of JI, JUI-F (Fazal Rehman) that are always talking against the Pakistani military operations against terrorists, that helped us bring terrorism down in the country. Are they secularists?

Btw according to liberals ur chachu was a war criminal and a lusty rapist of bengali girls. Its the Islamists who defended the honour of Pak Army in 1971. When PTV showed Pak Army surrender footage it was the JI boys who smashed the TV screens in the streets so that no one would watch it.

Exactly my point. You cannot say "all liberals are like this or like that". They are all different. My chachu was a liberal, my family is liberal. And we are also an "Army family" that will always defend Pakistan.

The reason why the JI supported the Pakistan Army in the 1971 war was because the Bangladeshi movement was not driven by religious motivations, but by ethnic separatism.

The reason why the likes of JI, JUI-F, Imran Khan have been against the Pakistani military operations is because they perceive that the Pakistani military is killing fellow Muslim brothers.

 

[Apprentice]

Can you answer the following questions:

a) What the total population of secularists/liberals in Pakistan?

b) What is the population of Pakistan bashers that are secularists/liberals?

If you cannot answer a) and b), how can you claim only a minority of secularists/liberals are patriots?

I say this after reading literally HUNDREDS of articles and comments from desi liberals and comparing them with articles/comments by pakistani islamists. I don't have data with me but i can definitely make a qualitative analysis.

Imran Khan came out with a statement yesterday that the Pakistan Army has been killing Pashtuns in the WOT, Balochs and Bangalis in East Pakistan in the past. He isn't liberal either. There are the like of JI, JUI-F (Fazal Rehman) that are always talking against the Pakistani military operations against terrorists, that helped us bring terrorism down in the country. Are they secularists?

JI supports the military operations now because now no one doubts that the TTP are khawarij. Before they had misunderstanding.


Now let me ask you something. Why were secularist officers like Asghar Khan opposed to 1971 operation searchlight? Why did islamists support Pak Army in East Pakistan and also in Sindh during the 80s sindhi nationalist insurgency?

 

[sbh02]

Now let me ask you something. Why were secularist officers like Asghar Khan opposed to 1971 operation searchlight? Why did islamists support Pak Army in East Pakistan and also in Sindh during the 80s sindhi nationalist insurgency?

Because Islamists do not agree with ethnic separatism (Sindhi insurgency, Bengali separatism in the past).

They will oppose military actions against religious militants, because they view them as fellow Muslim brothers.

It has nothing to do with patriotism.

 

[Apprentice]

The reason why the JI supported the Pakistan Army in the 1971 war was because the Bangladeshi movement was not driven by religious motivations, but by ethnic separatism.

Exactly. You proved my point. In case of ethnic separatism only Islamists will remain loyal to Pakistan. Not just Jamaat e Islami but ALL Islamic groups such as Jamiat Ulema Islam and Nizam e Islami supported Pak Army on 1971.

Now let me ask you something. Which Bengali liberal remained loyal to Pakistan? I am sure that many secular Bengalis were also patriotic Pakistanis before 1971. But why was it only the Islamist Bengalis who did not give up their patriotism in 1971?

While secularists will accuse your chachu of being some horny rapist who dishonoured a few girls before getting killed it will be the Islamists who will defend his honour.


And let me tell you another thing. Its the Islamist groups who defend Pak Army in Kargil and if any American airstrike harms them. Secularists like Najam Sethi criticise pak army for going to Kargil in the first place.

The reason Islamic groups were not enthusiastic about the military operations in Swat etc was that they were under the impression that Musharraf was going against Pakistan's interests and following America's orders.

 

[sbh02]

Exactly. You proved my point. In case of ethnic separatism only Islamists will remain loyal to Pakistan. Not just Jamaat e Islami but ALL Islamic groups such as Jamiat Ulema Islam and Nizam e Islami supported Pak Army on 1971.

Now let me ask you something. Which Bengali liberal remained loyal to Pakistan. I am sure that many secular Bengalis were also patriotic Pakistanis. But why was it only the Islamist Bengalis who did not give up their patriotism in 1971?

While secularists will accuse your chachu of being some horny rapist who dishonoured a few girls before getting killed it will be the Islamists who will defend his honour.


And let me tell you another thing. Its the Islamist groups who defend Pak Army in Kargil and if any American airstrike harms them.

The reason Islamic groups were not enthusiastic about the military operations in Swat etc was that they were under the impression that Musharraf was going against Pakistan's interests and following America's orders.

My chachu's wife was of Bengali ethnicity, and lives in Karachi to this day. I have heard of plenty of Bengalis living in Karachi too.

Are military chiefs such as Raheel Sharif Islamist? No, they are far closer in their ideology to liberalism.

No, the reason why Islamist groups were against military operations was because they felt that their fellow Muslim brothers were being killed.

Islamists are also the ones that provide the cannon fodder to impressionable minds to become Jihadis, and carry out terrorist attacks in the country.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1152267

 

[Apprentice]

My chachu's wife was of Bengali ethnicity, and lives in Karachi to this day. I have heard of plenty of Bengalis living in Karachi too.

Are military chiefs such as Raheel Sharif Islamist? No, they are far closer in their ideology to liberalism.

No, the reason why Islamist groups were against military operations was because they felt that their fellow Muslim brothers were being killed.

They believed that the operations were being carried out on America's orders. They felt it was a compromise of Pakistan's sovereignty. If being brother Muslim was an issue for them they would never have supported PA in 1971 or Zia in Sindh during the 80s when PA fought 'brother' Bengalis and brother 'Sindhis'.

Btw Raheel shareef and othe generals whose speeches have heard say explicity that Pakistan means la ilaha ilallah and that Pakistan will become Islamic state etc

 

[sbh02]

They believed that the operations were being carried out on America's orders. They felt it was a compromise of Pakistan's sovereignty. If being brother Muslim was an issue for them they would never have supported PA in 1971 or Zia in Sindh during the 80s when PA fought 'brother' Bemgalis and brother 'Sindhis'.

Btw Raheel shareef and othe generals whose speeches have heard say explicity that Pakistan means la ilaha ulallah and that Pakistan will become Islamic state etc

But a moderate Islamic nation (like Turkey etc) not governed by Shariah. Islamists wants Pakistan to be governed by Shariah law, the likes of Zia ul Haq did that, and look where it brought us.

A simple question for you:

a) Are you a Muslim first or a Pakistani first?

I am technically a Pakistani Shia Muslim.

But for me, I am first and foremost a Pakistan. Then I'm a Muslim. Thirdly a Shia.

 

[Apprentice]

General Amir Riaz

I am a Muslim first. We made Pakistan because we are Muslim first.

Had we identified with out nationality over our religion we would be Indian today.

 

[sbh02]

They believed that the operations were being carried out on America's orders. They felt it was a compromise of Pakistan's sovereignty. If being brother Muslim was an issue for them they would never have supported PA in 1971 or Zia in Sindh during the 80s when PA fought 'brother' Bengalis and brother 'Sindhis'.

Sindhis and Bengalis were not Muslims in their eyes, but simply, heretics, because they viewed their ethnic identity as the primary one. That is why they didn't support Bengalis and Sindhis in the past.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Doesn't mean anything. There were Jews in Hazrat Muhammad (saw)'s army too. And there were many Hindus in Mahmud Ghaznavi's Army too. 5 of the 12 generals in his Army were Hindu in fact.

Hindu generals in Ghaznavi's Army is false. Many converted as they were allowed to keep their kingdoms. They can't be counted as Hindu anymore. There were a few slave generals, their religion also don't count.

But your statement otherwise is correct. There were Russians in Hitler's army as well.

Pakistan's strength lies in its Islamism. If it becomes liberal, it loses the very basis on which it was created. What difference would Pakistan then have with India?

 

[Apprentice]

I am a Muslim first. We made Pakistan because we are Muslim first.

Had we identified with our nationality over our religion we would be Indian today.

 

[sbh02]

General Amir Riaz

I am a Muslim first. We made Pakistan because we are Muslim first.

Had we identified with out nationality over our religion we would be Indian today.

Pakistan's strength lies in its Islamism. If it becomes liberal, it loses the very basis on which it was created. What difference would Pakistan then have with India?

No, we made Pakistan because we wanted to create a secular (Muslim majority) nation, to escape from Hindu prejudice and domination over everyone non-Hindu. The creation of Pakistan had nothing to do with Islam.

Hindu generals in Ghaznavi's Army is false. Many converted as they were allowed to keep their kingdoms. They can't be counted as Hindu anymore. There were a few slave generals, their religion also don't count.

But your statement otherwise is correct. There were Russians in Hitler's army as well.

Pakistan's strength lies in its Islamism. If it becomes liberal, it loses the very basis on which it was created. What difference would Pakistan then have with India?

If that is the case, then why didn't Bangladesh become a part of India post 1971? Bangladesh wasn't formed as an Islamic state in 1971, the war was fought along ethnic/secular lines.

Why did Bangladesh/East Pakistan support the two-nation theory, even though they identified themselves as Bengalis primarily?