Pakistani actress lashes out at Sanjay Leela Bhansali for making Heeramandi, says it’s ‘not his to make’

[Paitoo]

I am all for authenticity and agree to everything you have said. I will myself not want to watch a movie totally devoid of inputs from locals. For me accent is of utmost importance. It is what brings characters alive. Indians frequently get accents wrong even from each others' states. Uttar Pradesh itself has 3 distinct Hindi accents, but all Bollywood depicts is Bhojpuri. I have no faith that they can get inner Lahori nuances right.

In fact, I am of the view that he should have decided to cast Pakistani artists, especially in lead roles. After all he is a director and should know this better. A 'buy in' (for lack of a better word) from local artists adds a much needed layer of acceptance.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will try to watch it. And I stand corrected on the actress being offended by the choice of subject. I know there are Pakistanis movies on the subject already.

 

[jamahir]

But earliest Hindu scriptures avaiable are also pretty old and there were centuries of oral hymns passed down generations. Not a single word hinting foreign origin in any of that. Whereas if you read Ramayan or Mahabharat, Indian lands are described in great detail.

1. The Ramayana and Mahabharata were compiled hundreds of years after the 1000 BC timeline when the original Hindus migrated into India hence no mention of Iranic lands.

2. There must have been a cultural tussle in Iranic lands like I have said before which would also lead to the Iranic lands not a nostalgic memory unlike among the Parsis.

1. Yogi is not a Brahmin, but a Thakur.

Nevertheless he and his types want the Manusmriti to replace the current Constitution of India.

2. Although I dont like him, but where did you get that he is playing caste politics. He is playing communal politics.

In one instance he didn't criticize his party colleague Sadhvi Pragya when she wondered on a public function stage that of all the castes declared in the caste system why do the Lower Caste Shudras dislike being called Shudras when the other three castes don't.

Still practised, but to a much lesser extent than earlier.

Well, how do we decide what is much lesser extent ?

I read of a village shop in North India where the Upper Caste shopkeeper wouldn't retain a biscuit pack that has been touched by a Dalit.

There was a vid of a Dalit rally where the people said that some shopkeepers accept coins that are dropped into their hands by Dalits from some distance above the hand.

There are the cases of the suicided students Rohith Vemula and Dr. Payal Tadvi.

There was the case of a Dalit soldier in the Indian army who returned to his Gujarat village for his wedding and was prevented by the Upper Caste people from riding a horse through the village to get to the bride's house.

The thing about villages not allowing Dalit men from keeping mustaches.

Then there was the famous case about the Indian women's hockey team's captain's neighbors saying that the team lost their Olympics match because there were too many Dalits in the team.

We can find many more instances.

For that, you will have to go to the history of evolution of collusion, between Pashtun separatists (Bacha Khan et al), Baloch separatists (Achakzai et al), Afghanistan, India and USSR. It is a long story. Had USSR consolidated its occupation over Afghanistan; the next target was to be Baluchistan. At least, that was, what was the perception of Pakistan military Establishment. It was not at all the decision of Zia alone.

Tell me, in 1951 if Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Socialist elements from the same Pakistan military establishment had succeeded in their coup would Pakistan not have become an ally of the USSR ?

In the 1980s not only was Zia ul Haq through his association with the Tablighi Jamaat an opponent of the Pakistani Socialists / Communists and an opponent of the USSR's presence in Afghanistan, he would also have been supported by the Indian Establishment in case his leadership position was in danger of being threatened by the Pakistani Socialists / Communists. From my thread from 2015 :

Washington: Contradicting perceived proximity to the Soviet Union in the Cold War era, India under the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi had toyed with the idea of supporting anti-Russian civilian groups in Pakistan if the then Zia regime was thrown out by Moscow, a recent declassified CIA document has claimed.

According to CIA documents of the era, which were recently declassified and posted on the CIA website under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), which is similar to India's Right to Information Act, Gandhi wanted non-interference from both the United States and the then USSR. "Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi would like both the USSR and the United States to end their involvement in South Asia," noted the 31-page CIA document titled 'The Soviet Presence in Afghanistan: Implications for the Regional Powers and the US'.

While taking note of the historic India-USSR relationship in particular in the defence field, the CIA report of April 1985 noted that India is likely to become increasingly concerned about long-range Soviet intentions in the region and could find itself moving towards confrontation with the Soviets if Pakistan was effectively neutralised.

"New Delhi regards Pakistan as a strategic buffer against the USSR and would oppose Moscow's effort to dominate Pakistan. New Delhi and Moscow would find themselves supporting rival factions within Pakistan," said the report, according to which Moscow had plans to change the regime in Pakistan and extend its influence beyond Afghanistan. In that case, the report said, "The Indians would seek to significantly reduce their dependence on Moscow and reorder their strategic relationship with the USSR, the United States and China if they perceived Soviet ambitions as extending beyond Afghanistan toward the subcontinent."

According to the report, the Soviets tried to heighten India's suspicion about Pakistan's intentions and its security relationship with the US in order to foster Indo-Pakistani tensions and heighten New Delhi’s dependence on Moscow. "In Soviet view, conflict between India and Pakistan would work toward solving Moscow's Afghan problem and would give Moscow opportunities to strengthen its position in South Asia," the report said.

"If (Gen) Zia (Ul Haq) regime were to fall, the Indians might try to prevent Soviet attempt to dominate Pakistan by supporting rival Pakistani political factions, Soviet military moves against an already neutralised Pakistan could even result in military confrontation with India," it added.

Six months later when Gandhi was planning to meet General Zia on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly meeting in New York, the CIA analyzed that the then Indian Prime Minister, despite his strong public views on Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, was unlikely to push him hard on it. "Gandhi is unlikely to push Zia hard about the Pakistani nuclear program, although he probably will at least mention his continuing concern," noted the top secret CIA document dated October 21, 1985.

"For his part, Zia is also likely to propose ideas on ways to improve the bilateral relationship. He may suggest regular high-level diplomatic talks in addition to the formal Joint Commission sessions that focuses on trade, communications and cultural exchanges," the report said. "Zia may also solicit Gandhi's views on whether as the Pakistanis believe the Soviets are becoming serious about a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan," it said.

Hi @magra @jamahir

Like I said before Hinduism has always been a religion to adopt new ideas and people into it's fold. With current sciences especially in linguistics tracing commonality between sanskrit and say avestan/latin, common religious elements like presence of devas and asuras it would really be injustice to think we had zero influence coming from people migrating from the steppes who also influenced other cultures. But the fact of the matter is that it is just one piece of the pie. Majority of current Hinduism has moulded in the subcontinent, the biggest proof being all of our holy sites being in the subcontinent itself, and so calling it foreign also doesn't serve it justice. I think we can agree on a safe middle ground, where we recognize the multiple layers of ideologies and people who influenced our religion and also of our most recent ancestors who developed the religion right here in the subcontinent.

A reasonable post.

 

[firohot4321]

Some bla bla... What do you call a person grieving the death of his 8th wife on bearing her 14th child, around his concubines. Such twisted ****.

Spoiler: NSFW

View attachment 781761

The rest of what I said are proven historic facts. Read more I don't need to explain in paragraphs of history. Hint : Guess where Zero came from. Egyptians? Lol

At least they are not religious texts. Its hillarious how you think there was no civilization before the camel jockeys arrived

Well zero is the only achievement in mathematics of saffron sanghis
Well because your achievement's in other fields are also mostly. Zero

 

[firohot4321]

Is Porus taught in Pakistan??? What about History before Moghuls. If you don't know your past you will never know about your present and no aspirations about your future...

Yes sonny we are taught about Indus valley Buddha and also Aryan migration the globally recognised to be a historical fact but saffron revisionist can accept it as makes em the invaders too

1. The Ramayana and Mahabharata were compiled hundreds of years after the 1000 BC timeline when the original Hindus migrated into India hence no mention of Iranic lands.

2. There must have been a cultural tussle in Iranic lands like I have said before which would also lead to the Iranic lands not a nostalgic memory unlike among the Parsis.



Nevertheless he and his types want the Manusmriti to replace the current Constitution of India.



In one instance he didn't criticize his party colleague Sadhvi Pragya when she wondered on a public function stage that of all the castes declared in the caste system why do the Lower Caste Shudras dislike being called Shudras when the other three castes don't.



Well, how do we decide what is much lesser extent ?

I read of a village shop in North India where the Upper Caste shopkeeper wouldn't retain a biscuit pack that has been touched by a Dalit.

There was a vid of a Dalit rally where the people said that some shopkeepers accept coins that are dropped into their hands by Dalits from some distance above the hand.

There are the cases of the suicided students Rohith Vemula and Dr. Payal Tadvi.

There was the case of a Dalit soldier in the Indian army who returned to his Gujarat village for his wedding and was prevented by the Upper Caste people from riding a horse through the village to get to the bride's house.

The thing about villages not allowing Dalit men from keeping mustaches.

Then there was the famous case about the Indian women's hockey team's captain's neighbors saying that the team lost their Olympics match because there were too many Dalits in the team.

We can find many more instances.



Tell me, in 1951 if Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Socialist elements from the same Pakistan military establishment had succeeded in their coup would Pakistan not have become an ally of the USSR ?

In the 1980s not only was Zia ul Haq through his association with the Tablighi Jamaat an opponent of the Pakistani Socialists / Communists and an opponent of the USSR's presence in Afghanistan, he would also have been supported by the Indian Establishment in case his leadership position was in danger of being threatened by the Pakistani Socialists / Communists. From my thread from 2015 :





A reasonable post.

Mahabharata ram Leela are copies of Greek Iliad when
Alexander came to India Greek brought these stories with em around 400 BC

Indians appropriated em like Bollywood churba

 

[jamahir]

Mahabharata ram Leela are copies of Greek Iliad when Alexander came to India Greek brought these stories with em around 400 BC

Well, Alexander came around 300 BC but I think you are correct that Greek works like Iliad ( which I have not read but will take your word ) were the inspiration sources for Mahabharata whose real writer must have seen some familial struggle among some Hindu royalty and elaborated it using the Greek works. Similarly for Ramayana.

 

[SIPRA]

Tell me, in 1951 if Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Socialist elements from the same Pakistan military establishment had succeeded in their coup would Pakistan not have become an ally of the USSR ?

In the 1980s not only was Zia ul Haq through his association with the Tablighi Jamaat an opponent of the Pakistani Socialists / Communists and an opponent of the USSR's presence in Afghanistan, he would also have been supported by the Indian Establishment in case his leadership position was in danger of being threatened by the Pakistani Socialists / Communists. From my thread from 2015

You have not responded to the considerations, I placed in my post, which were responsible for the decision of Pakistan security establishment, to confront USSR occupation of Afghanistan. It had nothing to do with communism, capitalism, or, for that matter, religion. It was response to a straight-forward threat and danger to the integrity of Pakistan, posed by USSR, in collaboration with Baloch & Pashtun separatists, Afghanistan government and India.

Instead, you are bringing in unrelated Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case of 1951.

 

[firohot4321]

Well, Alexander came around 300 BC but I think you are correct that Greek works like Iliad ( which I have not read but will take your word ) were the inspiration sources for Mahabharata whose real writer must have seen some familial struggle among some Hindu royalty and elaborated it using the Greek works. Similarly for Ramayana.

Helen of Troy story is alot like story of Ramayana and according to historians it's been around in Greek folklore for around 1000+ BC
Mahabharata is also a lot like Trojan wars saga
The battles between davas and rakhsa is copy of titanomachy between Olympians and titans all stories in Greek iliads

 

[AZMwi]

GAME of KANJARS.

 

[jamahir]

Helen of Troy story is alot like story of Ramayana and according to historians it's been around in Greek folklore for around 1000+ BC
Mahabharata is also a lot like Trojan wars saga
The battles between davas and rakhsa is copy of titanomachy between Olympians and titans all stories in Greek iliads

Thanks for the info.

@UDAYCAMPUS @magra

You have not responded to the considerations, I placed in my post, which were responsible for the decision of Pakistan security establishment, to confront USSR occupation of Afghanistan. It had nothing to do with communism, capitalism, or, for that matter, religion. It was response to a straight-forward threat and danger to the integrity of Pakistan, posed by USSR, in collaboration with Baloch & Pashtun separatists, Afghanistan government and India.

Instead, you are bringing in unrelated Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case of 1951.

Those considerations you posted were of an immediate nature which existed in the context of Zia's rule. I again ask you would these considerations have existed if the 1951 coup attempt had succeeded. And yes, Zia being of a right-wing bent was extremely important in him positioning the Pakistani Establishment against the leftist Afghan government and its Soviet backer. If Zia had been a leftist then the USSR would probably have helped him against the Baloch and Pashtun separatists whom you are somehow attaching a left-wing association.

As for India I have posted how the Indian Establishment would have helped Zia if his position would have come under threat from Pakistani leftists. India wasn't a Socialist country then ( despite the Constitution's preamble declaring it so ) or now. A friend of mine had a 1980s copy of the magazine India Today which had an article by an Indian journalist who traveled into Afghanistan to meet the so-called Mujahideen. It is certain that this trip was arranged by Zia's government in context of the Rajiv Gandhi-Zia understanding I mentioned earlier.

 

[magra]

1. The Ramayana and Mahabharata were compiled hundreds of years after the 1000 BC timeline when the original Hindus migrated into India hence no mention of Iranic lands.

You do know that much before Hindu texts were written down, they were passed down through generations via oral rote-learning. It is very difficult to grasp that the entire civilization had a mass amnesia about their historical roots or made a blood pact never to talk about where they came from.

Nevertheless he and his types want the Manusmriti to replace the current Constitution of India.

Proof?

In one instance he didn't criticize his party colleague Sadhvi Pragya when she wondered on a public function stage that of all the castes declared in the caste system why do the Lower Caste Shudras dislike being called Shudras when the other three castes don't.

Not criticizing one's own party colleague is a common feature in politics. It does not necessarily mean you agree with your party colleague. UP election victory for BJP has been primarily because they were able to unify most Hindu castes and use communal faultlines.

Well, how do we decide what is much lesser extent ?

I read of a village shop in North India where the Upper Caste shopkeeper wouldn't retain a biscuit pack that has been touched by a Dalit.
There was a vid of a Dalit rally where the people said that some shopkeepers accept coins that are dropped into their hands by Dalits from some distance above the hand.
There are the cases of the suicided students Rohith Vemula and Dr. Payal Tadvi.
There was the case of a Dalit soldier in the Indian army who returned to his Gujarat village for his wedding and was prevented by the Upper Caste people from riding a horse through the village to get to the bride's house.
The thing about villages not allowing Dalit men from keeping mustaches.
Then there was the famous case about the Indian women's hockey team's captain's neighbors saying that the team lost their Olympics match because there were too many Dalits in the team.
We can find many more instances.

Earlier, it was so very prevalent that you could see caste based discrimination in your everyday life around you. You would not have needed to read about or see a video about a case to realize that it exists.

Well, Alexander came around 300 BC but I think you are correct that Greek works like Iliad ( which I have not read but will take your word ) were the inspiration sources for Mahabharata whose real writer must have seen some familial struggle among some Hindu royalty and elaborated it using the Greek works. Similarly for Ramayana.

Why are you so quick to believe that our ancient texts were inspired by Greek ones and not vice versa. Any reason for that?

 

[Chhatrapati]

Well zero is the only achievement in mathematics of saffron sanghis
Well because your achievement's in other fields are also mostly. Zero

Among other things. Zero is a great achievement one that would give you severe heartburns and so much that you want to appropriate them as your people.

 

[jamahir]

You do know that much before Hindu texts were written down, they were passed down through generations via oral rote-learning. It is very difficult to grasp that the entire civilization had a mass amnesia about their historical roots or made a blood pact never to talk about where they came from.

Well, the main learning people among the Hindus were Brahmins who were limited in number and it was they who strictly decided the intellectual direction of the community. And please see my later point on this in this post.

Proof?

From this 2018 article :

BJP, which believes in Hindu nationalism, faces the dilemma about Indian Constitution. Necessarily it has to pay its obeisance to Indian Constitution for electoral purpose to be sure. It has to seek votes of all sections of society including dalits and other marginalized sections of society for whom this Constitution is a liberator. At present, BJP’s electoral strength is not adequate for changing the Constitution, so it cannot talk openly about the same. In addition Constitution has also emotive values for large sections of dalits, who regard it as a greatest contribution of Babsaheb Ambedkar in the direction of social change. In this light to statement of Anantkumar Hegde, the Union Minster, that BJP is in power to change the Constitution may not have matched with the overall strategy of BJP, which is to get 2/3 majority first before talking on this. Mr. Hegde, while speaking in the meeting of Brahman Yuva Parishat said “I will be happy if someone identifies as Muslim, Christian, Brahmin, Lingayat or Hindu. But trouble will arise if they say they are secular.”

And also that BJP is there to change the Constitution. Later when criticized in the Lok Sabha for his statement, he tried to circumvent his statement by saying that “if someone was hurt by his remarks about changing the Constitution and about secularism, he had no hesitation in tendering his apology.”

Surely BJP’s intentions have to be understood and his apology is purely strategic. BJP as a party has to work within the confines of Constitution as it has to swear by it legally. Still when BJP led NDA
Government came to power in 1998, it did appoint Venkatchaliah Commission to review the Constitution; probably that was the first open and subtle ‘statement of purpose’ from its side. It’s another matter that seeing the total opposition to its move of reviewing Constitution from large sections of society, the Commission report was dumped.

After Modi led NDA Government came to power (2014), on the occasion of Republic day 2015, it issued and advertisement with the preamble of Constitution in which words Secular and Socialist were missing. In November 2017 Yogi Adityanath stated that word secularism is biggest lie in India.’

The BJP will not reveal its deeper agenda so easily at present. Still it can be understood that BJP is not comfortable with the present Constitution and laws be it the one’s related to Article 370 (Kashmir), Article 25 (freedom of religion), article 30 (about minorities setting up educational institutions). As BJP is a part of RSS combine, one has to look at what RSS ideologues state, what its associates like VHP and others say on the issue. These organizations have times and again articulated their opposition to Indian Constitution and their goal of making the one based on Holy Indian scriptures.

As such the whole attempt of Hindu nationalist political formations is to try to pave the way for Hindu nationalism by using the democratic secular space which the present Constitution gives.

RSS ideologue Golwalkar in his writings like ‘Bunch Of Thoughts’ argues that territorial nationalism, which is the basis of Indian Constitution, is a barbarism, since according to him a nation is ‘not a mere bundle of political and economic rights’ but an embodiment of national culture —in India, ‘ancient and sublime’ Hinduism. It sneers at democracy, which Golwalkar sees as alien to Hindu culture, and lavishes praise on the Code of Manu, whom Golwalkar salutes as ‘the first, the greatest, and the wisest lawgiver of mankind’.

When the Constituent Assembly of India passed the Constitution of India on November 26, 1949, RSS was not happy. Its organ, Organiserin an editorial on November 30, 1949, complained: "But in our Constitution there is no mention of the unique constitutional development in ancient Bharat. Manu’s Laws were written long before Lycurgus of Sparta or Solon of Persia. To this day his laws as enunciated in the Manusmriti excite the admiration of the world and elicit spontaneous obedience and conformity. But to our constitutional pundits that means nothing."

VD Savarkar has been the major ideologue from whom most of the Hindu nationalists draw their inspiration. He argued: "Manusmriti is that scripture which is most worship-able after Vedas for our Hindu Nation and which from ancient times has become the basis of our culture-customs, thought and practice. This book for centuries has codified the spiritual and divine march of our nation. Even today the rules which are followed by crores of Hindus in their lives and practice are based on Manusmriti. Today Manusmriti is Hindu Law."

Deendayal Upadhayay has been another major ideologue of RSS combine. He was part of Bharatiya Janasangh, previous avatar of BJP. He says that India had written a Constitution imitative of the West, divorced from any real connection to our mode of life and from authentically Indian ideas about the relationship between the individual and society.

Like previous ideologues Upadhyay also felt that the Constitution should embody a Hindu political philosophy befitting an ancient nation like Bharat, that of reducing the Indian national idea to a territory and the people on it was fallacious. According to him the nationalist movement, from the Khilafat agitation onwards, has turned towards a policy of appeasement of the Muslim community, a policy in turn sought to be justified by the need to forge a united front against the British.

He was all through critical of Indian Constitution, as he argued his case for Hindu nation. His ideology seems to be one of the major inspirations for present leadership of BJP. BJP’s discomfort with articles 25, 30 and 370 etc. is mainly as these articles aim at affirmative action in a plural diverse society. These draw from the basic notion of Equality inherent in Indian constitution. Most of the ideologues, the source of BJP ideology uphold Manusmririti, no wonder this was the precise book which architect of Indian Constitution, Babasaheb Ambedkar consigned to the flames!

Earlier, it was so very prevalent that you could see caste based discrimination in your everyday life around you. You would not have needed to read about or see a video about a case to realize that it exists.

Well, it does exist everyday in ways big and small. Was it you or some other member who said that his educated grandmother made a point of inquiring if the prospective female cook was a Lower Caste ?

Why are you so quick to believe that our ancient texts were inspired by Greek ones and not vice versa. Any reason for that?

1. Please see post# 82.

2. I am not being contemptuous or sneering here but just making an academic point. Was Hindu India known for architectural splendor or technological advancement ? Much of Hindu civilization seems to me to be more of a prayer-chanting, festival-going and temple-building one. The world before zero AD did not quite register Hindu India as a marvel to wonder at. Why is that now the structures of ancient Egypt or Central America or even the Taj Mahal do not have a Hindu equivalent ? Why is it that it wasn't the Hindu civilization did not lead to the European Renaissance and Industrial Revolution ? It is in this context that I say that the Greeks who provided with a lot of literature and philosophy including the concept of Direct Democracy ( which in the Greek version was flawed but important nonetheless ) could not have borrowed literature from the Hindu civilization in India which came after the Greeks. The intellectual spark just wasn't there.

 

[magra]

Well, the main learning people among the Hindus were Brahmins who were limited in number and it was they who strictly decided the intellectual direction of the community. And please see my later point on this in this post.

Brahmins were a percentage of total population but still sizable in number. No reason to believe that they would engage in a mass conspiracy to hide their past and that this conspiracy would be so perfect that not even one person strays out of script.

Regarding BJP's agenda, they have nothing to gain by create caste faultlines and much to gain by creating communal faultlines. The write up which you gave is not a clear proof that they want to bring back Manusmriti.

Well, it does exist everyday in ways big and small. Was it you or some other member who said that his educated grandmother made a point of inquiring if the prospective female cook was a Lower Caste ?

It was me. Had it been the past, I would have had to succumb to her pressure but since it is modern times, I was able to easily brush aside her question and still make my own decision.

1. Please see post# 82.

It is not a proof. It just shows some similarity between Greek myth and Hindu myth. It does mean one copied from another and does not tell who copied from whom if they did copy. Also, Mahabharat is several times longer than Illiad.

2. I am not being contemptuous or sneering here but just making an academic point. Was Hindu India known for architectural splendor or technological advancement ? Much of Hindu civilization seems to me to be more of a prayer-chanting, festival-going and temple-building one. The world before zero AD did not quite register Hindu India as a marvel to wonder at. Why is that now the structures of ancient Egypt or Central America or even the Taj Mahal do not have a Hindu equivalent ?

Much of north India post Islamic invasions were under constant warfare. Also, many invaders sadly demolished marvellous temples. South India was more protected from this direct onslaught and you can see that the temples of the South are more majestic.

Why is it that it wasn't the Hindu civilization did not lead to the European Renaissance and Industrial Revolution ? It is in this context that I say that the Greeks who provided with a lot of literature and philosophy including the concept of Direct Democracy ( which in the Greek version was flawed but important nonetheless ) could not have borrowed literature from the Hindu civilization in India which came after the Greeks. The intellectual spark just wasn't there.

At the time of this industrial revolution / renaissance, India was already under foreign occupation.

I would say that Greeks were better at preserving their historical and scientific records. It is only in the last 100 years or so, that we came to know many of the modern discoveries of astronomy and medical science were known to ancient Indians (Aryabhatta, Sushruta) and then lost in the time.

 

[Turingsage]

the next target was to be Baluchistan. At least, that was, what was the perception of Pakistan military Establishment.

A lie perpetrated by those who saw a gravy train of Billions of dollars and free arms in front of their eyes.

 

[Maula Jatt]

A lie perpetrated by those who saw a gravy train of Billions of dollars and free arms in front of their eyes.

We never liked the soviets
They needed some *** kicking when they came to our backyard
Simple

And you do know at first US asked Pakistan to let it be?
First years Pak took care of everything on it's own, when US saw there's something here they started supporting