Pakistan will buy fighter jets from Jordan, Russia, France

[mingle]

Hi,

Truthfully---AN OVERKILL---.

Khafee---the problem here is---that Paf did not do the job right---.

It gave away it secrets that it did not have to just TO SHOW WHAT THEY COULD DO---to hide their embarrassment in not TRAPPING the enemy on the night of the 26th.

Truthfully--and I did not want to write it before---Paf's reaction was like the THUGS---.

When an enemy is threatening openly---Paf was not ready and prepared to react to enemy's incursion---and they will lie thru their teeth to hide their ill-preparedness due to their INHERENT ARROGANCE---.

Mohammad Yousuf was a great cricketer---an never improved on his fielding---. When he would let go a boundary while fielding---he would reply---it is not a problem---I will make you the score---don't worry about my fielding lapses---.

And that is what Paf psyche is---.

Don't worry we fckd up---we will take care of it---.

In that show and strut period on the 27th---we gave away all our secrets---.

@MastanKhan Exxon Cheif is coming to Pak Apr 30 drilling at Arabian sea is completed he will breif PM. MK if its positive I read it's Asia's biggest oil and gas reserve you see what prospect of Pak AND US relationship?

 

[Umar Nazir]

we could have lot of money due to our strategic locations but poor decision from our policy makers cost us alot. since 2001, US truck uses our road for free and when in 2011 because of SALALA attack , We Ban US supply route from Pakistan, than US paid more than 1700 dollar for each truck to one central Asia country.

Imagine how many truck passed through Pakistan since 2001, the no will be in millions, Multiply these no in million with atleast 2000 US dollars. Similarly no one knew, how much china paying us for their trucks which passing through our land

 

[Raider 21]

@Mangus Ortus Novem @MastanKhan @araz @Tps43 @The Eagle

One can't help but wonder, what would the outcome have been, had Blk60's been used, instead of Blk52.

60s would have bagged more jets in the same situation.

 

[araz]

@Mangus Ortus Novem @MastanKhan @araz @Tps43 @The Eagle

One can't help but wonder, what would the outcome have been, had Blk60's been used, instead of Blk52.

If we had that capability the outcome would more or less still have been the same. They came in unawares and were shot while still unaware. The loss is more than has been reported b7t the idea was never to kill the whole lot. It was to carry a message that we can spank you in this game so hard you will be unable to sit down for months and this is precisely what has happened.
My other sense makes me think is it a baited and loaded question? Are you telling us something that we do not know?
A

 

[Signalian]

@Mangus Ortus Novem @MastanKhan @araz @Tps43 @The Eagle

One can't help but wonder, what would the outcome have been, had Blk60's been used, instead of Blk52.

The day UAE's F-16 Block 60 land in Sargodha AirBase with PAF markings, not only SU 30 MKI but Rafale will get in a tight spot too. I consider F-16 E/F more of a strike oriented aircraft than a air combat oriented aircraft, though it is excellent in both arenas. The consequent variants of F-16's such as V-Upgrade and Block 70 are basically based on basic Block 52+ but majorly on Block 60.

Starting with the Radar, APG-80 AESA, 1000 T/R, has a synthetic aperture mode added for ground strike capability, is LPI capable, can track 20 targets. Radar has "Ägile Beam" Capability, which reduces its probability of detection and interception by enemy radars. This is extremely useful in some important aspects:
1. Helps detect enemy aircrafts when their radars are switched OFF.
2. Along with LPI, detection by enemy passive radars becomes more difficult, even when AESA is ON and transmitting.
3. Becomes more harder for enemy to jam AgileBeam AESA Radar than a contemporary AESA radar.

Radar range against various targets:

Some Put RCS of SU30 MKI at 5m2, 10m2, some at 20m2. So the above table can give an idea. I believe RCS changes depending upon of direction of radar and aircraft so between 5-20m2.

Conversely, Block 60's own RCS is 60-70% lesser than that of Block 52+, again direction dependent. This makes life hard for IAF MKI's and Rafale as well as SAM radars. APG 80 has been getting upgrades and is open for more upgrades, thus the effectiveness of this radar cannot be undermined in the Indo-Pak war scenario.

The FLIR system is either the ASQ-28 or AAQ-32 series. The laser designator range is around 30 km and IR range is 80-90 km, which is decent though depends upon many factors. It finds aerial targets, allowing passive targeting, and offering a tracking option that stealth won’t evade.

Where as the PAF Block 52+'s have ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory and Block 15's have AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM, the Block 60 has ALQ-165 electronic countermeasures system, also known as the Airborne Self-Protection Jammer (ASPJ), which is an automated modular reprogrammable active radar frequency (RF) deception jammer designed and contribute to the electronic self protection of the host tactical aircraft from a variety of air to air and surface to air RF threats. The ASPJ was designed to accomplish threat sorting, threat identification, and jamming management in a dense signal environment to counter multiple threats. So whats significant about ASPJ ? It had to go through a passive missile warning system update apart from active missile warning threat, that update might have gone through by now.

In the start I talked about F-16 Block 60 as a strike aircraft, i had CFT's in mind along with AESA Radar with SA mode, which not only increases range but also frees up pylons for strike payload. The range could increase up to 40%, which is definitely critical in many mission types, whether aerial, ground or naval. The engine thrust is increased (32500 Lb's) which caters for more fuel weight/payload if necessary. The overall increase in payload is around 1500 KG's.

In the weapon category, Block 60 would have created headache for IAF by bringing in the AGM 154 JSOW with range between 20-130 km's, depending upon release altitude. PAF's F-16s donot carry a long range air to ground missile, the H-2/H-4 can be carried by JF-17 or Mirage III/V. The ALCM category of AGM-84E SLAM with range of 110 km wouldn't have replaced Raád but creates redundancy in ALCM launch capability. The extended range also helps in CAP's, escorts and dog fights, as it helps extend the range of Aim120C5 AMRAAM by getting cushion in range which helps in pursuit with larger combat radius(as well as high altitude release). Aim-9X would give lethal edge to PAF against all IAF fighters with JHMCS in WVR domain. Through this way, F-16 Block 60 are capable of replacing PAF's Mirage III/V fleet (minus the ALCM Raád Integration).

Directing to combat against SU-30 MKI, the edge of RCS, Aim9x, CFT's, AESA and EW suite would have negated Flanker's advantage in every domain. The look first, shoot first concept will put Block 60 on edge against SU 30 MKI in air combat.
Though Block 60 cannot carry the same payload of MKI, but extended range of AGM's and the aircraft itself would make life hell for IAF fighters and SAM's. SEAD missions of F-16's would become possible for PAF and not just with AGM-88 HARM's but also with JSOW and SLAM.

PAF has contended to religious use of EW aircraft, F-16 Block 60 can provide similar capabilities when DA-20 is absent from a theatre. This F-16 can lead and guide JF-17 Block I/II's into strike missions, providing escort also if necessary. As the JF-17's return after strike, Block 60 has the ability to loiter abit longer and take out enemy aircrafts chasing JF-17's. Conversely on a strike mission, it poses a considerate threat to IAF ground radars and IN naval assets especially to IN ships using AGM-84 Harpoon as well as against IN Mig-29K's. Block 60 can also run CAP's in PN's territory with good fuel capacity providing defence for Maritime aircrafts with mid air refuelling downtime better than other PAF's aircrafts.

F-16 Block 60 basically fills in the gap where a long range strike fighter has been ascertained by members here. It brings the avionics and electronics along with weapon profile to counter SU 30 MKI in the air with more proficiency than PAF's current F-16's.

 

[mingle]

The day UAE's F-16 Block 60 land in Sargodha AirBase with PAF markings, not only SU 30 MKI but Rafale will get in a tight spot too. I consider F-16 E/F more of a strike oriented aircraft than a air combat oriented aircraft, though it is excellent in both arenas. The consequent variants of F-16's such as V-Upgrade and Block 70 are basically based on basic Block 52+ but majorly on Block 60.

Starting with the Radar, APG-80 AESA, 1000 T/R, has a synthetic aperture mode added for ground strike capability, is LPI capable, can track 20 targets. Radar has "Ägile Beam" Capability, which reduces its probability of detection and interception by enemy radars. This is extremely useful in some important aspects:
1. Helps detect enemy aircrafts when their radars are switched OFF.
2. Along with LPI, detection by enemy passive radars becomes more difficult, even when AESA is ON and transmitting.
3. Becomes more harder for enemy to jam AgileBeam AESA Radar than a contemporary AESA radar.

Radar range against various targets:
View attachment 556535
Some Put RCS of SU30 MKI at 5m2, 10m2, some at 20m2. So the above table can give an idea. I believe RCS changes depending upon of direction of radar and aircraft so between 5-20m2.

Conversely, Block 60's own RCS is 60-70% lesser than that of Block 52+, again direction dependent. This makes life hard for IAF MKI's and Rafale as well as SAM radars. APG 80 has been getting upgrades and is open for more upgrades, thus the effectiveness of this radar cannot be undermined in the Indo-Pak war scenario.

The FLIR system is either the ASQ-28 or AAQ-32 series. The laser designator range is around 30 km and IR range is 80-90 km, which is decent though depends upon many factors. It finds aerial targets, allowing passive targeting, and offering a tracking option that stealth won’t evade.

Where as the PAF Block 52+'s have ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory and Block 15's have AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM, the Block 60 has ALQ-165 electronic countermeasures system, also known as the Airborne Self-Protection Jammer (ASPJ), which is an automated modular reprogrammable active radar frequency (RF) deception jammer designed and contribute to the electronic self protection of the host tactical aircraft from a variety of air to air and surface to air RF threats. The ASPJ was designed to accomplish threat sorting, threat identification, and jamming management in a dense signal environment to counter multiple threats. So whats significant about ASPJ ? It had to go through a passive missile warning system update apart from active missile warning threat, that update might have gone through by now.

In the start I talked about F-16 Block 60 as a strike aircraft, i had CFT's in mind along with AESA Radar with SA mode, which not only increases range but also frees up pylons for strike payload. The range could increase up to 40%, which is definitely critical in many mission types, whether aerial, ground or naval. The engine thrust is increased (32500 Lb's) which caters for more fuel weight/payload if necessary. The overall increase in payload is around 1500 KG's.

In the weapon category, Block 60 would have created headache for IAF by bringing in the AGM 154 JSOW with range between 20-130 km's, depending upon release altitude. PAF's F-16s donot carry a long range air to ground missile, the H-2/H-4 can be carried by JF-17 or Mirage III/V. The ALCM category of AGM-84E SLAM with range of 110 km wouldn't have replaced Raád but creates redundancy in ALCM launch capability. The extended range also helps in CAP's, escorts and dog fights, as it helps extend the range of Aim120C5 AMRAAM by getting cushion in range which helps in pursuit with larger combat radius(as well as high altitude release). Aim-9X would give lethal edge to PAF against all IAF fighters with JHMCS in WVR domain. Through this way, F-16 Block 60 are capable of replacing PAF's Mirage III/V fleet (minus the ALCM Raád Integration).

Directing to combat against SU-30 MKI, the edge of RCS, Aim9x, CFT's, AESA and EW suite would have negated Flanker's advantage in every domain. The look first, shoot first concept will put Block 60 on edge against SU 30 MKI in air combat.
Though Block 60 cannot carry the same payload of MKI, but extended range of AGM's and the aircraft itself would make life hell for IAF fighters and SAM's. SEAD missions of F-16's would become possible for PAF and not just with AGM-88 HARM's but also with JSOW and SLAM.

PAF has contended to religious use of EW aircraft, F-16 Block 60 can provide similar capabilities when DA-20 is absent from a theatre. This F-16 can lead and guide JF-17 Block I/II's into strike missions, providing escort also if necessary. As the JF-17's return after strike, Block 60 has the ability to loiter abit longer and take out enemy aircrafts chasing JF-17's. Conversely on a strike mission, it poses a considerate threat to IAF ground radars and IN naval assets especially to IN ships using AGM-84 Harpoon as well as against IN Mig-29K's. Block 60 can also run CAP's in PN's territory with good fuel capacity providing defence for Maritime aircrafts with mid air refuelling downtime better than other PAF's aircrafts.

F-16 Block 60 basically fills in the gap where a long range strike fighter has been ascertained by members here. It brings the avionics and electronics along with weapon profile to counter SU 30 MKI in the air with more proficiency than PAF's current F-16's.

May be sheikh muhammad and Trump have a big heart to release these jetts for Pak UAE buying new jets can buy jet from US again with no political issue

 

[Signalian]

If Paf had gotten that fleet---we would have peace deal signed with India longtime ago---Kashmir issue would have been resolved---and we would have been progressing forward---.

Kashmir issue not resolved due to PAF....I'm speechless.

 

[untitled]

Kashmir issue not resolved due to PAF....I'm speechless.

In his defence I have seen at least one particularly enthusiastic sanghi who clearly said that the day he sees a Su35 in PAF colours, India will willingly handover Kashmir to Pakistan

 

[TheTallGuy]

PAF Block 52+'s have ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory

Sorry to nit pick but we do have DRFM equipped ALQ-211 operational

we wll get F-16C/D Block 72 in near future...so they are already in tight spot

 

[Signalian]

Sorry to nit pick but we do have DRFM equipped ALQ-211 operational

we wll get F-16C/D Block 72 in near future...so they are already in tight spot

Maybe i read wrong.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

In the near future, Pakistan will be able to access block 40 EDA Falcons from the US to supplement the aging Falcon UP MLU Block 15 Pace Falcon, and re-utilize the MLU hardware on a lower time airframe and current engine inventory. TIA would be a likely partner for such conversion.

 

[Khafee]

My other sense makes me think is it a baited and loaded question? Are you telling us something that we do not know?
A

Not baited or loaded, just shaking my head in disbelief.

PK was the only country to be offered Blk60's without royalties, a point that really stung your western neighbor, but PK failed to take advantage of.

 

[zulu]

Dear @Khafee our past is full of mistakes and blunders and we paid the heavy price of it but any good news regarding it in coming future ?

PK was the only country to be offered Blk60's without royalties, a point that really stung your western neighbor, but PK failed to take advantage of.

 

[Khafee]

Maybe i read wrong.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

He is right

These systems have also been deployed by other F-16 operators including Chile, Poland, Pakistan and Turkey
https://www.aviationreportglobal.co...ter-measures-systems-for-its-f-16-block-5052/

What the Indians saw that fateful day vanish of their radar was this:
ALE-50 Fiber Optic towed decoy
https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ale50

 

[messiach]

I HOPE, these reserves and any other reserves never gets explored. We are BETTER OFF without these. These RESERVES BRING with them the shadows of the SLAVE-MASTER ie exxon. This will only bring further and further MISERY, resident POLITICAL TURMOIL & escalating POVERTY just on the lines of SOUTH-AMERICAN states like VENEZUELA.

we could have lot of money due to our strategic locations but poor decision from our policy makers cost us alot. since 2001, US truck uses our road for free and when in 2011 because of SALALA attack , We Ban US supply route from Pakistan, than US paid more than 1700 dollar for each truck to one central Asia country.

Imagine how many truck passed through Pakistan since 2001, the no will be in millions, Multiply these no in million with atleast 2000 US dollars. Similarly no one knew, how much china paying us for their trucks which passing through our land