Pakistan was created on the basis of group nationalism and not religion

[Burger Boy]

But that doesn't mean that an Islamic Republic of Pakistan goes against the vision that Jinnah had for the country, right? You just admitted that yourself.

I always thought that "Islamic Republic" came well after Jinnah's death.

 

[EjazR]

You are clearly not understanding so many things here. I actually agreed with you that SIMI is ideologically supported by JI India. What does JI India have to do with Pakistan? My point was that fundamental extremists of SIMI were ideologically aided by Jamaat Islami India, whose legal status is a religious organization btw. And some historical perspective: Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani was opposed to the idea of Pakistan, he was also the Chief of Hadith department of Dar Uloom Deoband and also Jamaat Ulema Hind. There are also such links found between JI and Dar Uloom Deoband. They are not the same, but they are closely related. Even if Dar Uloom Deoband has changed its stance, there are enough Muslim extremist religious organizations in India, such as Islamic Research Foundation; whose President Zakir Naik is, & who claims to follow the Deobandi School of thought, even though he isn't a member of the Dar Uloom Deoband.

IT'S ONE THING BEING CONDEMNED BY DAR ULOOM DEOBAND FOR TERRORISM, AND ITS ANOTHER THING TO BE THE REASON WHY GROUPS LIKE THE TALIBAN EXISTED, EVEN IF THEY CONDEMN THE TALIBAN NOW. And there are plenty of other local Indian religious organizations that extremists can go to for their religious indoctrination & "ideological ammunition", it doesn't need to be Dar Uloom Deoband. Even though they have changed their paths, they laid the seeds for all the local extremism reaping in India today.

The Deoband school of thought was closely tied to JI Hind organizations in the past(as has been mentioned above). A school of thought gives "ideological ammunition" to religious organizations. Even if the school of thought doesn't give "ideological ammunition" to religious extremists such as SIMI, it is the religious organizations that do, something they were responsible for.

You show your ignorance once again JI-Hind closely tied with Deoband? Seriously you don't know what you are talking about. JI had a political Islamic ideology of implementing Islam through a political dispensation. A relatively new concept in Islamic theology that came out in the 19th century.
Deoband is a school of thought in the Hanafi Branch. It opposes the political Islamic ideology like almost all school of thoughts in traditional Islam do.
And Zakir Naik does not follow Deobandi school of thought my friend, another example of your ignorance. He is more closely associated with the Salafi school of thought.
Now please don't say salafi/deobandi/Jamaat Islami are all same?
You want to ignore plain proofs that I have quoted but instead of want me to proove a negative. Its not Guilty until proven innoccent now is it? Besides let me be clear that if you had blamed the Salafi school of thought or Barelvi or some shia school of thought I would have held the same position. Its not only about the Deobandi that I am saying this.

Its the political religious ideology and not a school of thought that is responsible here. The political religious ideology is something that came about in the 20th century in Islam. There was similar movements in Judaism and Christianity from before. There are similar movements in Hinduism as well.

I don't know if you actually believe in this, or you're just lying wilfully. Anyways:

Source: wikipedia

And wikipedia as your source, again, the SIMI ideology is abhorent and against traditional Islam but SIMI members still have'nt been convited in a court of law. That doesn't mean some of their members may have not been involved in terrorism. At the same time, in their actions and ideology they had clear cut links with JI in Pakistan. I have quoted the interview of Safdar Nagori from 2001 when SIMI was not even banned.

You clearly do not understand this simple fact. Taliban follow the Deobandi ideology that evolved from Deoband, UP. If Dar Uloom Deoband didn't exist, Taliban would not exist, because their Deobandi ideology wouldn't exist. Please come out of your denial mode, and accept you are wrong. It doesn't matter what Dar Uloom Deoband say now, whether they condemn them or not. They have clearly provided the ideological ammunition to these groups to commit the terrorism seen today.

If they followed the "deoband ideology" why are they not listening to Deoband when they say their actions are unIslamic, or to not impose a political Islamic ideology or suicide bombings which have been declared haram? Facts are clearly showing the false premise you are building here. First you wanted a clear cut condemnation from Deoband, then from their top leaders and now it doesn't matter what they say because they are just guilty. Sounds very similar to the fringe Islamaphobes in Europe and US where all terrorism is blamed at Islam.

Please I request you again, just stop lying so shamelessly. Name me one group on the pars of the Taliban (they follow Deobandi ideology) that the Barelvis had? Pakistan has existed for 63 years, and the Barelvis have lived peacefully with everyone. You think one nutjob is as bad as the Taliban, which sprung out of the Deobandi ideology? You are clearly out of your mind, and so wrapped up in your delusions & conspiracy theories, you can never even see the truth even if its presented right in front of your eyes.

Its a historical fact that Zia used JI and Deobandi groups and provided state backing to them to beat up his political opponents and provide recruits for the wars in Afghanistan. These were later used in Kashmir by the intelligence establishment.

The Deoband school has existed for slightly longer than Barelvi school of thought and it was not until the 80s that a section of their followers became militant and that too in Pakistan. Why is it that only a section of Pakistani Deobandi followers are radicalized? And how is it that the Deoband was opposed to the retrogressive idea of the Two Nation theory and supported composite nationalism theologically.

Your knowledge about Deoband seems limited to an ideological bias. Hereis a brief article about Barbara Metcalfe who has done seminal work on Deoband academically and published a few books on the basis of her research. It might give you a backgrounder and how false the premise is that JI and Deoband are linked.

Explain to me, how can you conclusively say that Col.Imam is the father of the Taliban? And Col Imam was just one person, he might not even be following the orders of the ISI. One terrorist sympathizer does not mean that the whole organization supports terrorists.

Is Hamid Gul also not an ex-ISI chief now? Seriously, you should stop the polemics its getting painful now.

This is what I mean by brownie points, they have not condemned the violence of the Indian Army against the Kashmiri people ever since 1947. And this is the reason why there is so much terrorism from local Indian Mujahideen that have nothing to do with Pakistan.

Proved wrong again, I have lost count at how many times how you have made baseless allegations without backing up. While I am suppose to give links and "proof", all you have to do is just make allegations and stories up.
Jamiat Ulema e Hind demands AFSPA revocation troop withdrawal Lastupdate:- Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

Why is Qazi Hussain Ahmed and his JI party still a registered party in Pakistan? Why hasn't India been conclusively been able to prove his involvement in activities in India? Please stop reading conspiracy theories written by Indian authors. You just quoted one very questionable interview that cannot be even regarded as serious evidence.

What conclusive proof do you have tying SIMI with Pakistan? NOTHING!!! You're sprouting hogwash again.

Conspiracy theories because it doesn't suit your tastes? How about Arif Jamal or Ahmed Rashid? Both are well known Pakistani authors. Arif Jamal has written an extensive book on Kashmir likeAmazon.com: Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir (9781933633596): Arif Jamal: Books. Do read it and you will see how JI cadres in Kashmir were used by JI in Pakistan as the first step in "Jihadising" the Kashmir separatist movement.

And IM, SIMI links with the Karachi project may be speculation, but LeT prescence in Mumbai attacks is not.

He is entitled to his own opinion. Frankly, you have disappointed me. You have not given me one official statement from a high ranking official saying "The Pakistani Intelligence supports the Taliban". Again, I can quote you Alex Tarpley & Webster Tarpley that conclusively prove Mumbai attack was a false flag operation by Hindutva terrorists. Read about them. Webster Tarpley is very knowledgeable about world affairs, educated at Princeton University as well. If you choose to believe Rashid & Safi as your conclusive proof, I choose to believe Tarpley and Jones, perfectly unbiased sources. Happy?

How about Paktribune quoting an Army official calling Beitulla Mehsud and Fazlullah "patriots" ?
Army official calls Baitullah Mehsud, Fazlullah ‘patriots’

Ahmed Rashid and Saleem Safi lived in the tribal areas and Afghanistan and have been reporting from that area for the last 30 years. There is no comparison between Tarpley and Jones

Kashmir is disputed territory that Pakistan claims to be its land forcefully occupied by India. The UN agrees Kashmir is a disputed territory. Pakistan can do whatever it wants in Kashmir, just as India has been doing for the past 63 years, it is not Indian territory.

Like I said, do what you want, don't call it Jihad, otherwise it will come to bite you as it has done already.

JI Pakistan, & all other religious parties in Pakistan have also called the Taliban's actions "unIslamic". And Pakistan is fighting Taliban that crossed over from Afghanistan in the Tribal Areas. And since you couldn't prove that the Pakistani regime supports the Taliban, I don't see what we are arguing about here.

So what happened to "Show me one quote where senior Deoband clerics have called Taliban actions UnIslamic"?

Its interesting to see how you keep Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia every time you get caught out.


To summarize:

Keep rambling on my friend, you have not provided one shred of credible evidence from high ranking officials & authenticated sources quoted them saying "Pakistan formed & supports the Taliban". I'm not asking for too much, am I? On top of that, you failed to indict Qazi Hussain Ahmed in Pakistan, you posted one very questionable interview; and Qazi Hussain Ahmed is still heading JI, & JI Pakistan is a perfectly registered party today. Americans haven't objected against JI or Qazi Hussain Ahmed either. You haven't provided one shred of evidence linking SIMI to Pakistan. You've only connected them to JI India, but not to JI Pakistan. As mentioned before, JI Pakistan & Qazi Hussain Ahmed have no evidence presented against them by India. And it doesn't matter whether Dar Uloom Deoband condemns Taliban or not, it was their Deobandi ideology that gave rise to them. Without the Deobandi ideology, there'd clearly be no Taliban today. There is not even one terrorist group of Barelvi Muslims like the Taliban.[/QUOTE]

So an end with a rambling. Just a few points again

(1) The topic is about emphasizing group nationalism and not religion more specifically a political religious ideology as basis of Pakistan. I support that viewpoint. JI in Pakistan, the Army and intelligence establishment in general as well as in the bureaucracy does not.

What do YOU support?

(2) The US along with the Pakistani intelligence establishment used JI in its Afghan war. They were allies for most of the 80s. They may not be involved in terrorism directly but its their ideology that results in militant terrorist groups.

And JI Pakistan has extensively ideological involvement in Kashmir as well as with SIMI. When it comes to operationalising terrorism, then its militant political religious groups like LeT, Hizb, HuJI that do the dirty work.

The IM and SIMI is the long sought after exportation of the perverted Jihadi ideology from Pakistan to India. Even then it has not found a base and has quickly withered due to lack of support from Indian Muslim community as well as the Indian Muslim scholars across all schools of thought.

Unlike Pakistani based Jihadis, theology is not the basis of terrorist attacks alleged to be done by Indian muslims but revenge for riots in Godhra or Mumbai after the Babri Masjid.

On the other hand, Pakistani based Jihadi groups are theologically indoctrinated for a "Jihad against India" Do attend a Jamaat ut Dawaa rally the next time you are in Pakistan and you will know what I am talking about.

(3) Moving goalposts on the Deoband point does not prove you right. After numerous examples and proofs, you choose to ignore or sidestep the issue and just say Taliban follow Deoband. If they did, why are they using suicide bombings that have been declared haram by them as well as the conservative Salafi ulema in Saudi Arabia?

On the other hand, JI in Pakistan and other groups don't speak against suicide bombings. If Pakistanis are involved in terrorism, does that mean all Pakistanis are now suspect?



I suggest you spend some time reading this thread where the ideology behind terrorism was discussed extensively. And it has articles from various scholars both Muslim and non-muslim. It will do well for you to read through it all.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...wered-questions-case-pakistan.html#post550583

 

[EjazR]

You bharati muslims have no limit in trying to impress your bharati hindu masters. You even quote an article from the most least reliable source, The Ahmadiyya Movement Website.

The point was to show the scanned copy of the Iqbal's letter, you can find the same text in other websites or the British library if you prefer. Its a primary source and a scanned copy of his letter to the editor. Not an opinion piece on what he thought.

And Ahmedis had a major role in Pakistan movement. The 1940 Lahore declaration aka the "Pakistan Resolution" was authored by an Ahmedi who later became Pakistan's FM

Do read up on your history.

Ishtiaq Ahmed's Distortions About The Pakistan Movement | Pak Tea House
Well historically everyone is aware of Sir Zafrulla’s role in the roundtable conference as Punjab’s main man. No less a person than Khan Abdul Wali Khan – whose book forms a major reference point for Ishtiaq Ahmed - claimed with absolute certainty that Sir Zafrulla, “a Qadiyani”, was the author of the Lahore Resolution. Ostensibly if Zafrulla was the author of the Lahore Resolution and the Lahore Resolution marks the start of the Pakistan Movement,.....
.
.
The truth is that Ahmadis were closely involved with Jinnah as early as 1931 when he went and attended Juma prayers at their London Mosque. It was the Imam of the Woking Mosque who being Jinnah’s close friend convinced him in 1934 to return to India and take over the Muslim League. The Ahmadiyya movement’s chief – Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud- was at this time the president of the All India Kashmir Committee. One of its more famous board members was Allama Iqbal. This was before Iqbal turned notoriously anti-Ahmadi in his last years over a familial dispute over his Ahmadi half brother.

Not to mention the correspondence between Ahmedi leader Muhammed Ali on felicitating Jinnah on the creation of Pakistan, his explicit command to all his followers to vote for Muslim league and his whole hearted support for the movement.

 

[Omar1984]

The point was to show the scanned copy of the Iqbal's letter, you can find the same text in other websites or the British library if you prefer. Its a primary source and a scanned copy of his letter to the editor. Not an opinion piece on what he thought.

Provide a link from another source. I dont trust the Ahmadiyya Movement Website. The Pakistan constitution sees Ahmadiyyas as non-muslims, therefore many despise Pakistan today. Ahmadiyas are banned from entering Mecca because of Pakistan. I am not talking about 1947, and really dont trust any Ahmadiyya website.

And dont quote Khan Abdul Wali Khan, the son of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan who was against the creation of Pakistan and was pro-indian congress.

 

[EjazR]

Stop lying man:

Iraq had WMDs (NSA documents):

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/wmd15.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/wmd14.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/wmd03.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/wmd05.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/wmd06.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/wmd10d.pdf

There are 10-20 more links from the NSA many years before the Iraq War took place, I just posted these because these were enough. These NSA documents I posted are before & at the time of the Iraq Invasion.

Did you even read what you have quoted? Did you read the Electronic Briefing Books that I quoted? Apparently not!

The briefing books gives the context and who wrote the documents and when. It has documents before the Iraq war about how evidence was manipulated and some of the documents you quoted are the examples of manipulated evidence as compared to what the real intelligence was saying.

At least make an effort when I give you source links. The National Security Archives is a non-governmental organization-not an intelligence agency- that collates all declassified documents of the USG.

Stop lying so despicably & shamelessly. You copied links posted later from the NSA, all the posted links from the NSA are from 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002. So the NSA fed the lie that Iraq had WMDs. Surprising they wouldn't think the Pakistani Army has links with the Taliban.

What are we talking about here? That political religious ideology in the name of Islam is harming Pakistan. This ideology was given a fillip under Zia and thanks to the backing it received from the Army and intelligence establishment. They probably didn't believe in the ideology but at the ground level their troops and taliban recruits did and continue to do so. Even Musharraf has admitted support of the Taliban has come to badly impact Pakistan later. The declassified documents show the extent of involvement of the Pakistani army and intelligence establishment with the Taliban in the 1990s.

If there was anything that brought the Taliban to power, it was this support and they are more to blame than any school of thought based in India.

I think this will be my last post to you on this thread, as any sane reader will be able to discern that political religious ideology is the root cause that when radicalized leads to terrorism in the name of religion.

Again if you are interested, go through this thread and read up on what I mean. http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...wered-questions-case-pakistan.html#post550583

On topic
Do you agree that group nationalism based on shared ethnicity, culture should be used rather than a political religious ideology?

If yes, then we are agreement on this point. If no, that right there along with the involvement of Pakistani state institutions in backing groups who militantly support this view is cause that results in Pakistan having LeT, Hizb, LeJ and all sort of assorted militant organizations that have created the mess you see today in Pakistan where people are killing and bombing mosques in the name of Islam.

 

[EjazR]

Provide a link from another source. I dont trust the Ahmadiyya Movement Website. The Pakistan constitution sees Ahmadiyyas as non-muslims, therefore many despise Pakistan today. Ahmadiyas are banned from entering Mecca because of Pakistan. I am not talking about 1947, and really dont trust any Ahmadiyya website.

And dont quote Khan Abdul Wali Khan, the son of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan who was against the creation of Pakistan and was pro-indian congress.

Omar1984, this is offtopic stuff and I don't need to google everything for you. Suffice to say that I have a book called Letters and Writings of Iqbal published by the Iqbal Academy Pakistan. And it has this letter in it as well. See if you can get that book yourself. Also you can probably find his son saying the same thing as well on youtube if you do a search as well.

And it is a fact that Zafarullah Khan - an Ahmedi was involved in drafting the Lahore declaration, was later working Radcliffe on the boundary issue and as FM was the permanent rep to UN. The reason why YLF quotes Wali Khan is because Istiaq Ahmed used his book as a source for his article to say that Ahmedis did'nt have a major role in Pakistan's movement. The fact that the same book shows that Zafarullah Khan was involved in drafting the Pakistan resolution in 1940s was a way to prove his point. There are other people as well who mention his role in the Pakistan movement.

Anyways, this is offtopic and I don't want to derail this thread any further.

 

[53fd]

You show your ignorance once again JI-Hind closely tied with Deoband?

Are you denying that Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani, who was opposed to the idea of Pakistan, was also the Chief of Hadith department of Dar Uloom Deoband and also Jamaat Ulema Hind?

And Zakir Naik does not follow Deobandi school of thought my friend, another example of your ignorance.

Where did I claim that Zakir Naik follows the Deobandi school of thought? By using Zakir Naik as an example, I said there was enough local extremism in India; not because I was implying he had any links with Dar Uloom Deoband, or that the Dar Uloom Deoband was responsible for him in any way. So you clearly didn't understand what I said.

Lesson: Never assume what other people have said, when they clearly haven't said those things that you accused me of.

Deoband is a school of thought in the Hanafi Branch. It opposes the political Islamic ideology like almost all school of thoughts in traditional Islam do.

Deobandis are deviants to the original school of thought in the Hanafi branch. The Barelvis are closer adherrants of the Hanafi branch. The Deobandis took out all of Prophet(S)'s heavenly attributes. They also claimed Barelvis were doing Shirk by going to shrines of saints, & thought concepts such as Prophet(S) being Hazir Nazir were shirk because Barelvis were deviating, apparently making Prophet(S) a god just like Christians made Jesus their god. That is why Barelvis have always sought to seek Prophet(S)'s guidance & presence in a spiritual way, & are peaceful, while Deobandis are deviants & intolerant by nature.

Now please don't say salafi/deobandi/Jamaat Islami are all same?

No, they are not. But Salafis & Deobandis share some common points, although they have their differences as well. Deobandis & Salafis both believe that Prophet(S) was not Hazir Nazir, they both believe that Prophet(S) was not Noor ul Bashr, they both believe that the Prophet(S) was not infallible. The differences where Deobandis and Wahabis have are that Deobandis claim that Prophet(S) had ilme-ghaib given to him by Allah, Salafis do not accept that. They believe he was an ordinary man. Deobandis also believe that it is right to do Tawassul through the Holy Prophet(S) (use him as waseela), Salafis think that is Shirk.

At the same time, in their actions and ideology they had clear cut links with JI in Pakistan. I have quoted the interview of Safdar Nagori from 2001 when SIMI was not even banned.

Then why is JI Pakistan not a banned party (its a registered one), & why didn't the Indian government ask Qazi Hussain Ahmed to be handed over to them? These are only a figment of your imagination.

If they followed the "deoband ideology" why are they not listening to Deoband when they say their actions are unIslamic, or to not impose a political Islamic ideology or suicide bombings which have been declared haram?

I have just explained to you that the Deobandis are deviants of the Hanafi school of thought, just like Salafis are deviants of the original Hanbali School of thought. The fact that they consider anyone who reveres the Prophert(S) as Mushrik is the reason why they are extremist in nature. They take everything on face value, & refuse the more spiritual aspects of peaceful Islam.

t the same time, in their actions and ideology they had clear cut links with JI in Pakistan.

Then why hasn't India officially asked Pakistan for Qazi Hussain Ahmed? Why hasn't he been convicted? Why isn't JI Pakistan a banned organization? Why is still a legitimate, registered party in Pakistan?

First you wanted a clear cut condemnation from Deoband, then from their top leaders and now it doesn't matter what they say because they are just guilty. If they followed the "deoband ideology" why are they not listening to Deoband when they say their actions are unIslamic, or to not impose a political Islamic ideology or suicide bombings which have been declared haram?

Taliban follow the Deobandi school of thought. If it didn't exist, there would be no Taliban. The Taliban started attacking shrines, worshiping place for Shias and others because these people are supposedly Mushriks. This thought stems from the original school of Deoband thought that says Barelvis & Shias commit Shirk by going to Shrines. So yes, the Deoband Ulema in India is responsible for the actions of the Taliban in Pakistan.

The Deoband school has existed for slightly longer than Barelvi school of thought and it was not until the 80s that a section of their followers became militant and that too in Pakistan.

That's true. However, the Barelvi school of thought is closely associated and linked to Sufism, & Sufism is older than Deobandi or Barelvi school of thought. Sufism was how Islam was originally spread in the Indian subcontinent.

Is Hamid Gul also not an ex-ISI chief now? Seriously, you should stop the polemics its getting painful now.

Hamid Gul has explicitly stated on international TV that he or the ISI NEVER supported the Taliban in any way. He just said he had affinity & connection with them, that he was respected by them, but he never gave them any support.

How about Arif Jamal or Ahmed Rashid? Both are well known Pakistani authors. Arif Jamal has written an extensive book on Kashmir. Ahmed Rashid and Saleem Safi lived in the tribal areas and Afghanistan and have been reporting from that area for the last 30 years.

They are still journalists, and their personal opinions cannot seriously be counted as any piece of evidence my friend. If Hillary Clinton, Obama, Mullah explicitly said that the Pakistani Army supports the Taliban, then I would agree with you. You are also mixing up many things between the Mujahideen and the Taliban. They are completely separate things, but Mullah Umar, Haqqani & other people that later formed the Taliban were also part of the Mujahideen. Hence, people that would not be part of the Taliban such as Hekmetyar (HIG), Ahmed Shah Masood (NA) were also part of the Mujahideen. The ISI & CIA were directly involved with the Mujahideen, not the Taliban. And because the Mujahideen & Taliban which formed later had some common fighters, such as Haqqani and Mullah Umar; it wouldn't be surprising that Pakistan still has some links to them, because after all, they were the Mujahideen. However, this does not mean that Pakistan supports them in anyway, or supports the Taliban. I hope I made myself clear now. Kashmir is a different issue.

How about Paktribune quoting an Army official calling Beitulla Mehsud and Fazlullah "patriots" ?

Why would the Pakistan Army call the people from TTP patriots? Do you know how the TTP was even created? The TTP was created in December 2007, as a result of the Red Mosque Attacks. None of the members of the TTP were fighters in the Mujahideen. Mullah Umar has specifically distanced himself from the actions of the TTP. The TTP has also killed Pakistani people & Pakistan forces in the country. How can they be patriots? You clearly have NO idea what you are talking about, yet you are only rambling on again & again. Please don't talk about things you have no clue about.

 

[53fd]

The briefing books gives the context and who wrote the documents and when. It has documents before the Iraq war about how evidence was manipulated and some of the documents you quoted are the examples of manipulated evidence as compared to what the real intelligence was saying.

The documents I posted the links for were part of the NSA archives at that time. These documents were used by the US government to justify that Iraq had WMDs, and gave authorization to the US forces to invade Iraq.

At least make an effort when I give you source links. The National Security Archives is a non-governmental organization-not an intelligence agency- that collates all declassified documents of the USG.

Did I ever say the NSA is an intelligence agency? I said that these documents were part of the NSA archive at the time, & these documents were used by the US government to justify the war in Iraq. So I don't know what I need to say to make myself clearer.

What are we talking about here? That political religious ideology in the name of Islam is harming Pakistan. This ideology was given a fillip under Zia and thanks to the backing it received from the Army and intelligence establishment. They probably didn't believe in the ideology but at the ground level their troops and taliban recruits did and continue to do so

We are talking about the fact that the Pakistani ISI & CIA propped up the Mujahideen, not the Taliban. You clearly do not understand the difference between the two.

Even Musharraf has admitted support of the Taliban has come to badly impact Pakistan later.

Musharraf has explicitly said on international TV that the Pakistani government, ISI and Army has never supported the Taliban. Just because some Pakistani people might support the Taliban doesn't mean the Pakistani nation & its authorities are responsible for the support for the Taliban.

If there was anything that brought the Taliban to power, it was this support and they are more to blame than any school of thought based in India.

What you don't understand is that the Deobandi ideology is flawed, and is a deviation of the Hanafi school of thought. Barelvism might have come a few years after the Deobandi ideology, but it has close links & associations with Sufism, which is much older than the Deobandi school of thought. Sufism was how Islam was initially spread into the Indian subcontinent. The Deoband Ulema is responsible for claiming Barelvis & Shias as Mushriks, which serves as the ammunition for the Taliban to bomb the religious places of these "Mushrikeen".

 

[harsh1488]

Yes you people preferred to be called what Foreigners named you. Be proud be very proud of it.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------



Pakistan is still much more pak then India.

everybody knows how pak is pakistan,india can never be pak and i am happy for it

 

[53fd]

It's clear that Dar Uloom Deoband's ideology is inherently extremist by nature (as mentioned in detail in Post # 487), calling Barelvis (even when they belong to the same Hanafi school of thought), Shias who visit graves & shrines as Mushrikeen, thus providing the religious ideology to the Taliban to commit suicide bombings in their holy places of worship.

 

[muse]

Just get to the country Pakistan was supposed to be, a country where confession was not a concern of the government

 

[F-16_Falcon]

everybody knows how pak is pakistan,india can never be pak and i am happy for it

'pak' mean pure. pakistan mean the land of pure. so bharat can never be pak because you are not. we call pakistan ,pak sar zameen.

 

[harsh1488]

'pak' mean pure. pakistan mean the land of pure. so bharat can never be pak because you are not. we call pakistan ,pak sar zameen.

i meant india can never be as pure as pakistan thinks it is(sarcasm)

 

[53fd]

Dar Uloom Deoband India the Indian source of the Taliban:

Darul Uloom Deoband: The Indian Source of the Taliban | Kabul Center for Strategic Studies

The Taliban learned their interpretation of Islam while studying at Deobandi seminaries in Pakistan. Mullah Omar, for example, the leader of the Taliban, attended the Deobandi Darul Uloom Haqqania madrassa in Akora Khattak, in Peshawar, Pakistan. So many Taliban leaders were educated at this same school that its head cleric, Maulana Sami ul-Haq, has been called the father of the Taliban.

Another of the school’s alumni is Pakistani Taliban leader, Jalaluddin Haqqani. He was the Minister of Tribal Affairs under the Taliban. Today, he and his sons use a network of Deobandi madrassas, the Dar Uloom schools in Waziristan, to indoctrinate, recruit, and train jihadists that they deploy in the insurgency in Afghanistan. Deobandi-trained armies under Haqqani have taken credit for bombing the five-star Serena hotel in Kabul last winter, and are suspected in the Indian embassy bombings that took place in Kabul this summer. The U.S. military has identified one of Haqqani’s sons, Siraj, as no less than the leading threat to security in eastern Afghanistan. Many analysts believe he is the heir apparent to Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Researchers from Kabul Center and the Indian Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses visited the headquarters of the Deobandi movement in the city of Deoband, about 150 kilometers northeast of New Delhi, in mid-November.


History of the Deobandi movement

The school was established in 1866, during the early period of India’s long struggle for independence from British colonial rule. The school’s founder, Maulana Mohammad Qasim Nanautvi, set up the center to establish a place where Muslims could retreat in order to escape what he believed was the corrupting encroachment of Western civilization. He wanted the school to become a place where Muslims could return to what he believed was the pure Islam, the Islam that was practiced by the Prophet and his companions.
The founder must have touched on a deep longing, as the school quickly emerged as one of the most important centers of Islamic learning in the British Indian Empire.

A century later, when Britain was finally relinquishing its control on the sub-continent, the Deobandis sided with Mahama Gandhi against the leading Muslim politician at the time, Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Like Gandhi, the Deobandis opposed the idea partitioning India into two secular states, one especially for Muslims, to be called Pakistan, and the other, India – that would welcome all Indians, regardless of their beliefs.

The Deobandi scholars opposed the Jinnah plan because in their minds, there was nothing Islamic about a secular Muslim state. Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani, then head of the Deobandi movement, believed that the Islamic alternative was to have all Indians endeavor together to create a democratic state Indians of every faith. (Abdul Sattar Ghazali, Islamic Pakistan: IIlusions & Reality).

Jinnah would prevail. And so in 1947, when the subcontinent was divided, the Deobandis, elected not to move to the new state of Pakistan and instead they stayed in their traditional home, which was now in the new state of India.
Soon the two new states were on hostile terms, over a dispute over which state should control the Himalayan state of Kashmir. What this meant to the Deobandis was that now followers of the movement in Pakistan had to create their own centers of learning – they no longer had the same access to the center in Deoband.

Instead of diminishing the movement’s influence, however, the international border that now bisected its sphere of influence may have strengthened the Deobandis. Now new leaders had additional space in which to grow without
having to threaten the center’s power.


Deobandi madrassas proliferated in the new environment and today, the force of the movement can be seen in the Deobandi madrassas that can be found, not just in India and Pakistan, but also in countries as far away as Europe and North American. An estimated 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques are identified as Deobandi mosques according to a London Times report. (The Times, Sep. 7, 2007).

Moreover, many of the Deobandi centers are characterized by the media as “hard-line.” (The Times, Sep. 7, 2007). This is because like the Taliban, many of the Deobandi madrassas have been linked to extremism.
“Dirty bomber” Jose Padilla, for example, attended a Deobandi mosque in South Florida where he is said to have learned the interpretation of Islam that would steer him toward Al Qaeda, and land him a 17-year prison sentence for aiding terrorists.
Kabul Center researchers wanted to find out what the Darul Uloom Deobandi leaders thought about the school’s various connections to terrorism and so they set out from Delhi in November.

Unfortunately, they arrived in Deoband a day earlier than expected. While the mufti, or head cleric of the school was unable to accommodate the last minute schedule changes, Adil Siddiqi, the public relations officer, was made available to the researchers. Mr. Siddiqi introduced himself, telling the researchers he has served the school in this capacity, for twenty years now, ever since he retired as an official in the Indian Ministry of Culture and Information.

A native of Deoband, Mr. Siddiqi, never attended the madrassa himself though, curiously, his father taught at the school.

He explained that he was educated in the secular system for “economic reasons” – the same reasons he chose to educate his own children – two boys and two girls – in the same state-run secular system as opposed to the Deobandi madrassa.

Like his father, he went on to say that he never imposed any religious views on his children. Though he identifies himself as a Deobandi, he never memorized the Koran and any religious education he has is “self-taught.”

In addition, he admitted that his lifestyle is not as pure as the Deobandis who stay at the center. While at the center all forms of entertainment are banned as they are considered to be corrupting. Mr. Siddiqi confessed to watching television at home – “the news,” he said, smiling. Here are excerpts from the researchers’ conversation with Mr. Siddiqi.

Muslims in India

Kabul Direct: How are Muslims doing in India?
Adil Siddiqi: In general, Muslims in India are very depressed due to economic problems. They have the problem of educational backwardness. Because of their backwardness, Muslims have not been able to serve the Indian nation very well.
Kabul Direct: How many Muslims are there in India?
Adil Siddiqi: Around 200 million, spread throughout the country.
Kabul Direct: What explains their economic and educational backwardness?
Adil Siddiqi: Muslims in India were originally drawn from the lower castes. They were the people who were exploited by the Brahmins. This is why they converted to Islam. They responded to Islam’s message of equality. Still, they remain weak, economically and educationally.
Kabul Direct: What about the political participation of Muslims in Indian government?
Adil Siddiqi: Indian Muslims take part in all political spheres. But again, because of their weakness in the economic and educational spheres, their political progress is less than it should be.

The Curriculum

Kabul Direct: As the oldest Deoband seminary around the world, how many students do you have?
Adil Siddiqi: Today we have some 3,500 students. Every year about 800 students graduate from our program. Not one of our students is unemployed or jobless. Not one of them is involved in any kind of anti-social activity. Our students go on to leave peaceful lives, to spread the message of Islam as a religion of peace throughout the world.
Kabul Direct: what about your educational programs?
Adil Siddiqi: The program is a twelve-year program. The elementary education is a five- year program. Then there is a seven-year advanced program.
Kabul Direct: What subjects are taught?
Adil Siddiqi: We teach philosophy, literature, logic, Islamic jurisprudence and other subjects too. After completing our full program, a student who wants to go further can specialize and
continue his studies in the seminary.
Kabul Direct: What about the journalism and computer courses you offer. Are all students obliged to take these courses?
Adil Siddiqi: Only students who want to pursue these courses.
Kabul Direct: Are your students only from India or from around the world as well?
Adil Siddiqi: The majority is Indian, but we have students from abroad as well. For example, we have students from England and so on.
Funding

Students at the school are not expected to pay tuition, and the researchers were curious as to where the money came from.
Kabul Direct: How is the school funded?
Adil Siddiqi: The school’s funds come from Muslims, from charities and so on. Do not forget that this is the age of globalization. We have many followers from around the world who support our institution.
Kabul Direct: What is your annual budget?
Adil Siddiqi: [Around $3 million U.S.].
Kabul Direct: Do you publish your financial statements?
Adil Siddiqi: Yes, for sure. Our expenditures and income is regularly is checked by the Indian government. Government officials monitor our finances.


Clash with the West

Kabul Direct: As every scholar and citizen is aware, the idea that there is a clash occurring between Islam and the West is gaining ground. Some have called for a dialogue – between Islam as a religion and the West as a geography. Is this how to address this rising issue?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, a conspiracy started under the Bush strategy and administration. Now the Bush era is over. With the newly-elected president in the United States, Mr. Obama, it is hoped, will change the policies of his country towards the Islamic world, and thereby change the situation in the world
Kabul Direct: According to your institution, should such a dialogue happen?
Adil Siddiqi: Dialogue is always welcomed. But it should be based on sincerity.
Kabul Direct: Should the dialogue be between the West and Islam or between the holy religions – between Islam and Christianity, for example, or between Islam and Judaism?
Adil Siddiqi: Dialogue must happen. But it should not be ambiguous or with reservation.
On Al Qaeda’s view of Islam

Kabul Direct: The Bush policies notwithstanding, don’t you think it has been Bin Laden and his harsh and inhuman interpretation of Islam that has most damaged Islam’s image in the world?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, it is claimed that Osama Bin Laden was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks. But where is the evidence? Who has proved this claim that Osama has planned the attacks? This has never been proved.
Kabul Direct: But what about his interpretation of Islam? Do you think he is right in his interpretation of our religion?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, I have to mention one major point. Osama and his organization have misused the word of Jihad, they have applied it in the wrong sense. We oppose what he describes as jihad. We direct our efforts to interpret Jihad according to the present situation, the time and context.
Kabul Direct: So what is [Darul Uloom Deoband’s] interpretation of Jihad?
Adil Siddiqi: Jihad means efforts to make our lives peaceful. This is the true message of Islam throughout the world. This is the real meaning of Jihad. We have to promote Islam. I don’t think it is Jihad to kill, oppress, and attack people.
The other major usage of Jihad is that Muslims can defend themselves. In Islam and in Jihad, we can defend ourselves from the attacks of the enemy. All the rights of self-defense are declared in Islam. Only for self-defense are we allowed to fight. Otherwise we are not allowed to wage war.
Kabul Direct: What about suicide attacks in Afghanistan? Are suicide attacks legitimate? Are they right to conduct suicide attacks?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, this is Afghanistan’s matter. We can’t interfere in the affairs of Afghanistan or the affairs of other countries.
Kabul Direct: You don’t think suicide attacks are unIslamic?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, in particular situations, I think they are unIslamic.
Kabul Direct: But in Pakistan, madrassas who are using the name Deoband are involved in attacks and the killing of innocents. As the largest Islamic Deoband seminary in the world, have you ever sent a message to tell them that what they are doing is not allowed in Deoband?
Adil Siddiqi: We have always given the message that activities – murder, the killing of innocents- is not Islamic, that such actions are anti-Islam and against our interpretation of Islam.
In fact, it was only in February of this year that Darul Uloom Deoband issued its first blanket condemnation of terrorism. In the decree, the clerics stated that “Islam is a religion of mercy for all humanity. Islam sternly condemns all kinds of oppression, violence and terrorism.” (AFP, Feb. 25, 2008)

Deobandi efforts to disassociate Islam from terrorism do seem to be accelerating of late. A few days before the researchers arrived in Deoband, some 4,000 senior clerics met in Hyderabad and endorsed the second Deobandi fatwa against terrorism that was issued in May. The May fatwa read: “Islam is in no way connected with terrorism and all those who are responsible for terrorist acts leading to loss of life and property of innocent people are not Muslims.” The Hindu, Nov. 9, 2008.)
Maulana Mahmood Madani, general- secretary of Jamiat Ulama-i Hind, a political party founded by Darul Uloom Deoband clerics, said the next step was to gather clerics from across the entire sub- continent, including Pakistan and Afghanistan and have them endorse the anti-terrorism decree as well. (Radio Free Europe, Nov. 18, 2008).

Perhaps this is why in mid-October, a group of radical clerics in Pakistan came out with their own fatwa repudiating suicide and other “senseless” jihadist attacks in Pakistan. The fatwa’s endorsers included the head of the banned Deobandi-inspired Sipah-e Sahaba, a group that is notorious for its brutal attacks against Shia Muslims. (BBC Monitoring South Asia, October 16, 2008).

Afghans were disappointed to note the ruling was silent on such “senseless” attacks inside Afghanistan. But many Afghans were cautiously optimistic at least this was some indication the Deobandis had taken stock of what their followers have done to the image of Islam.

The Afghan Insurgency

Kabul Direct: [The Taliban] say they are fighting Jihad [in Afghanistan] with their suicide attacks and murders. They say they are doing these things under the banner of Islam, in accordance with the Hanafi and the Deobandi schools to Afghan citizens. But is what they are doing in Afghanistan, to an Islamic nation with a constitution that states that Islam is the basis of its law, with a government that was elected by Muslim people, really in accordance with the teachings of Deobandism?
Adil Siddiqi: Well what the Taliban claims that is Deobanism dates back to fifty years ago. But since that time, we have brought about many changes to Deoband. Today our approach to any case is based on the current situation and present era. So Deoband cannot be held responsible for the Taliban’s mind set.
Kabul Direct: So are you saying that what the Taliban is doing is anti-Deoband?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, every place has its own problems. We have to analyze the particular context to see what is good and what is bad. Then we can decide about that.
Kabul Direct: What do you think about the terrorism that is currently happening?
Adil Siddiqi: I don’t think there is a unique definition of terrorism in the international level. Terrorism’s roots go back to economic problems. Its causes are local. For example, terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir has one aspect and terrorism in Afghanistan has another aspect. So everywhere it is defined differently.
Kabul Direct: So what do you say when innocent people are killed under the name of Islam?
Adil Siddiqi: Islam has never been for the killing innocent people. Islam is a religion of peace. We are not even allowed to tease our neighbor, who might be from any religion.
Adil Siddiqi: Hamid Karzai’s government has completely failed in Afghanistan.
Kabul Direct: But the constitution of Afghanistan is based on Islam. It is totally believed to be Islamic. In the third article even, it says that Islam is the source of law in Afghanistan, that nothing that is against Islam can be passed as law.
Adil Siddiqi: The United States army is attacking the Taliban. They are acting in self-defense. They don’t have any other way except to defend themselves. And they have the right of self defense.
Kabul direct: But you know that out of some thirty million Afghan citizens, the majority of them support the Afghan government. They see at as the legitimate Islamic government. They have never opposed it. So we have an Islamic constitution, an elected and legitimate government, a government that is supported by the majority of Afghan Muslims. So you do not think that the Taliban’s claims are not true? That the Taliban’s claims are against the will of Afghan population?
Adil Siddiqi: Well, this is the age of democracy. If a majority of people are positive, then they are right. The Taliban are defending their own thoughts.
Kabul Direct: So what do you think about the insurgency which is going on in the name of Jihad in Afghanistan? Is the Taliban’s jihad against the legitimate Afghan government acceptable according to your organization’s view of Jihad?
Adil Siddiqi: You know that the United States invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Now it is charging its way toward Pakistan. The Bush administration is using Pakistani territory to attack Afghanistan.
Kabul Direct: Well, it is the Taliban who are claiming to be waging Jihad in Afghanistan
Adil Siddiqi: The Taliban are not saying that. They are being compelled to say it and wage Jihad. This is not their basic idea.
Kabul Direct: What do you mean that this not their basic idea?
Kabul Direct: Has the Darul Uloom done anything to dissociate itself from the Darul Uloom madrassas in Pakistan – the ones that are being used by the insurgents?
Adil Siddiqi: We have no links with those seminaries in Pakistan. The Daral Uloom Deoband was opposed to the partition of India from the very beginning. Since Partition in 1947 we have never been in touch with the seminaries that were established there, the seminaries who claim to be following the Deobandi school of thought.
Kabul Direct: But it was reported that Mawlana Fazal Rahman, [the leader of the Pakistan’s hard-line Jamiat Ulema-e Islam] visited your institution recently. Did this not indicate that you have links to one of the leading extremist organizations in Pakistan?
Adil Siddiqi: When he visited India, he did visit the Darul Uloom Deoband, yes. There were no talks of politics, however. That is it.
Kabul Direct: If your relations with the Pakistani seminaries ended in 1947 with the partition of India, why did Mawlana Fazal visit your institution then?
Adil Siddiqi: Before the Partition, the seminaries in what are today’s Pakistan, Afghanistan, India and Bangladesh were in close touch. There was no difference between them. They were all united during that time. They had talks in those days, dialogues. This is the only reason leading scholars from Pakistan – like Mawlana Fazul Rahman – visit India’s Darul Deoband today.
What Mr. Siddiqi told the researchers in November 2008 contradicted what he had told a reporter in May of 2001, as the Darul Uloom was celebrating its 150th anniversary. The century-and-a-half celebrations must have been heightened by the fact that at the time, Deobandis known as the Taliban were in possession of their own state – the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, as they called it. The head of this state, Taliban leader Mullah Omar, in fact, gave the keynote address at the most important event of the commemoration festivities, the one in Peshawar, where so many Taliban leaders had learned their Deobandi interpretation of Islam.

This then was the context in which Mr. Siddiqi told a reporter months before the 9/11 attacks, that there was little distance between the Darul Uloom Deoband in India and the Taliban madrassas in Pakistan and Afghanistan. As he explained the relationship then: “We expect madrassas in Pakistan and Afghanistan to refer to us when they have any religious doubts.” (Globe and Mail, May 12, 2001). But that was a long time ago. Much has changed to warrant the new Deobandi position Mr. Siddiqi was now conveying.

 

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Katiyar demands ban on Darul Uloom Deoband:

Katiyar demands ban on Darul Uloom Deoband - Express India

Lucknow Bharatiya Janata Party national general secretary Vinay Katiyar demanded a ban on the Darul Uloom Deoband, claiming that a report of the Second Administrative Reforms Commission (ARC) had stated that terrorists interacted extensively with the leaders of the Islamic seminary.
“Either the Congress should seek unconditional apology for making such remarks against the Darul Uloom Deoband or ban it for its involvement in Islamic terrorism,” Katiyar told mediapersons in Lucknow on Thursday.

He added that the eighth report of the ARC, headed by senior Congress leader Veerapaa Moily, had stated in section 3.5.1 that “Mohammad Masood Azhar Alvi arrived in India with the task of working out a reconciliation between the cardres of the Harkat Mujahiddin and Harkat-ul Jehad Islami, whose parent organisations had merged to form the Harkat-ul-Ansar. His main objective was to liberate Kashmir from Indian rule and to establish Islamic rule in Kashmir. He also interacted extensively with the leading figures of the Deoband Ulema”.

Quoting other parts of the report, published in June 2008, Katiyar said: “In section 3.5.4, the report said it was important to take a look at the role played by SIMI in the promotion of Islamist extremism in India. It further said that SIMI’s former president C A M Basheer, originally from Kerala, was the first Indian Muslim known to have gone to Pakistan for arms training.”