Pakistan wants to create a self-reliant, self-sustained defense industry

[Yaseen1]

I think next time if he visit Pakistan we should give no protocol to dubai royals and ik should not go to receive them and drive their cars,they not deserve such respect.I am very hurt by their attitude,if Muslim country betray you it is very painful

I am so glad the big nose sheikh of dubai had his daughter run away and now his wife who has taken both her kids. Horrible disgusting vermin

 

[cabatli_53]

Partnership and cooperation, joint-investment is the best way to improve the technology and infrastructure of your industry. When the knowledge got matured in some specific areas, Commence a domestic program to transfer the new knowledge gained. That is how a self sustained industry can be established. From this perspective, I think Pakistan should go into partnerahip in helicopter, aircraft, surface to air missiles and warship programs. On the other hand, Pakistan should give special interest to optics, electronic warfare, complete avionic solutions, radars and all type engine technologies to improve engineering skills of industry to reveal competitive products.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

@cabatli_53 unfortunately Pakistan has wasted far too much time in establishing the necessary joint infrastructure with Turkey

• We had chance to build helicopter factory but it is in infant stages
• We had chance to build Navy Ship construction factory but it is also in infant stages
• We missed the boat on Cooperation on Hisar-A, Hisar-0 joint research
• We missed chance to induct Turkish Rifles in Pakistan

Since 2008

We had Zardari Government (5 years)
We had Nawaz Sharif Government (5 years)

Almost a decade however these objectives above were not practiced


We have had massive success in strategic weaponry however we should have also had plans to do joint development in above mentioned program at least 8 years ago


We need to go from "Should or Could" to "We have done it "

 

[cabatli_53]

@cabatli_53 unfortunately Pakistan has wasted far too much time in establishing the necessary joint infrastructure with Turkey

• We had chance to build helicopter factory but it is in infant stages
• We had chance to build Navy Ship construction factory but it is also in infant stages
• We missed the boat on Cooperation on Hisar-A, Hisar-0 joint research
• We missed chance to induct Turkish Rifles in Pakistan

Since 2008

We had Zardari Government (5 years)
We had Nawaz Sharif Government (5 years)

Almost a decade however these objectives above were not practiced


We have had massive success in strategic weaponry however we should have also had plans to do joint development in above mentioned program at least 8 years ago


We need to go from "Should or Could" to "We have done it "

Pakistan didn’t miss anything. First of all, Pakistan has a matured industry and qualified engineers but designing a new product from scratch needs huge experiences gained from previous years so Joint design programs may boost the design engineering skills. When I checked strategic weapons shaped in the hands of Pakistani engineers, I realize that Pakistan has vast of knowledge and old experiences in this field so What Pakistan should do is to find a partner in any field to make a deal while using bargain options in hands. Using Chinese option to get more tech from Turkiye or Using Turkish options to get more tech/offset from China will provide benefits enough to reach the targets in tenders.

I believe Milgem deal will provide experience enough to draw a modified Pakistani frigate within 4-5 years so Pakistani industry should concentrate on developing naval subsystems such as radars, missiles, VL tubes, EW sensors, sonar and propulsion. All area require a different and difficult tech deal to get offsets so Money plays important factor.

Turkey is also new in helicopter industry. What Turkey is trying to do is to transfer the knowledge gained from T129 to T-625 utility helicopter program. We are also learning while developing a domestic helicopter. See How T625 is struggling to stay balanced on air. Later, Atak-2 and 12t Utility copters followed the baby steps to proceed much more ahead in this league. Turkey acts really brave with commencing many program simultaneously to feed the knowledge gained so Money become very important again.

In this circumstances, Pakistan didn’t miss anything in any field as well. If we manage to develop T-625 successfully, Pakistani industry may benefit from this helo with a deal similar to Milgem. Deal may contain joint design team to develop a Pakistani variant of T625 for example. After this period, The design engineers joined into this program can be charged to develop totally domestic Pakistani helicopter with maybe subsystem assistance from Turkey until Pakistan develop the products that will replace Turkish systems(Turkey used Italian subsystems until domestic systems replaced them). Turkish industry uses all those methods to improve engineering skills of Turkiye. That is the reason Turkish officials selected an obsolete, small and unpopular European copter called A-129 against superior Tiger and Ah-1Z. What Italians offered us was the best joint-design and development offer which will be benefical to Turkish industry in mid and long term, even if the A-129 itself is not the best helicopter in tender. Pakistan should use all those methods to benefit other’s experiences. No need to be pessimistic bro. Turkey and Pakistan will form impressive programs which will be benefical to each side from technological, economical and military aspects. T-129 Atak, Milgem deals will evolve into deeper strategic steps for bigger platforms.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

The army is right in their perspective; however and fortunately, the bureaucracy in Pakistan is well aware of the geo-politics in the world order.

Despite the so called ''Turk'' member who preaches and teaches how to ''milk'' Turkey in building defence industry of Pakistan; what makes it possible is the geo-politics, otherwise, no Italian, Chinese or etc. would set up a JV with third countries.

Can the army describe the current geo-politics and the place of Pakistan in it before blaming the bureaucracy?


... simpler, how to build and sell weapons in today's world order?

 

[denel]

Pakistan didn’t miss anything. First of all, Pakistan has a matured industry and qualified engineers but designing a new product from scratch needs huge experiences gained from previous years so Joint design programs may boost the design engineering skills. When I checked strategic weapons shaped in the hands of Pakistani engineers, I realize that Pakistan has vast of knowledge and old experiences in this field so What Pakistan should do is to find a partner in any field to make a deal while using bargain options in hands. Using Chinese option to get more tech from Turkiye or Using Turkish options to get more tech/offset from China will provide benefits enough to reach the targets in tenders.

I believe Milgem deal will provide experience enough to draw a modified Pakistani frigate within 4-5 years so Pakistani industry should concentrate on developing naval subsystems such as radars, missiles, VL tubes, EW sensors, sonar and propulsion. All area require a different and difficult tech deal to get offsets so Money plays important factor.

Turkey is also new in helicopter industry. What Turkey is trying to do is to transfer the knowledge gained from T129 to T-625 utility helicopter program. We are also learning while developing a domestic helicopter. See How T625 is struggling to stay balanced on air. Later, Atak-2 and 12t Utility copters followed the baby steps to proceed much more ahead in this league. Turkey acts really brave with commencing many program simultaneously to feed the knowledge gained so Money become very important again.

In this circumstances, Pakistan didn’t miss anything in any field as well. If we manage to develop T-625 successfully, Pakistani industry may benefit from this helo with a deal similar to Milgem. Deal may contain joint design team to develop a Pakistani variant of T625 for example. After this period, The design engineers joined into this program can be charged to develop totally domestic Pakistani helicopter with maybe subsystem assistance from Turkey until Pakistan develop the products that will replace Turkish systems(Turkey used Italian subsystems until domestic systems replaced them). Turkish industry uses all those methods to improve engineering skills of Turkiye. That is the reason Turkish officials selected an obsolete, small and unpopular European copter called A-129 against superior Tiger and Ah-1Z. What Italians offered us was the best joint-design and development offer which will be benefical to Turkish industry in mid and long term, even if the A-129 itself is not the best helicopter in tender. Pakistan should use all those methods to benefit other’s experiences. No need to be pessimistic bro. Turkey and Pakistan will form impressive programs which will be benefical to each side from technological, economical and military aspects. T-129 Atak, Milgem deals will evolve into deeper strategic steps for bigger platforms.

Let us see - Agosta TOT went no where, I hope what you say is valid; first and foremost, you need to invest in complex alloy manufacturing, carbon fibre and learn from ground up. These are fundamental building blocks that need to be in place. I am not sure if there are aluminium smelters or aluminium alloy production there? Same applies for very high tensile steel for barrels and tonnes of other uses not to mention ships.

 

[cabatli_53]

Let us see - Agosta TOT went no where, I hope what you say is valid; first and foremost, you need to invest in complex alloy manufacturing, carbon fibre and learn from ground up. These are fundamental building blocks that need to be in place. I am not sure if there are aluminium smelters or aluminium alloy production there? Same applies for very high tensile steel for barrels and tonnes of other uses not to mention ships.

Indeed Agosta ToT was a strategic step to establish a competitive helicopter industry and Turkish industry is proceeding in this way with an ambitious strategy to reveal not only one type of helicopter but a family of rotorcrafts from 2t to 12t so Complex alloys play a critical role in almost all sections of aerial vehicles. Aluminium, steel, nickel, magnesium and composite materials are vital technologies to establish a self-sustaining industry complex.

Regarding composites...

• The state of art composite technology used in aviation sector includes two types of prepreg. Thermoset and thermoplastic. Thermoset is the technology which is widely used on new generation aircraft manufacturing process.(%90 of drones and %53 of airliners are manufactured with carbon-fiber thermoset). Thermoplastic is a new generation and more advanced composite material compared to thermoset. It is predicted that It will take 5-8 years thermoplastic will dominate the market cause of being lighter and more resistant than thermoset. At present, TAI and its national partners has developed 4 different type carbon fibre and fiber glass thermosets with İpek project and working on three different kind of thermoplastic prepregs with Koza project.

Thermoset

Thermoplastic

To crown advanced efforts of engineers about composite materials, TAI is building one of the most advanced composite materials robotic production facility which will be 4th biggest composite materials production facility of the World.

 

[cabatli_53]

I am not sure if there are aluminium smelters or aluminium alloy production there?

You know Raw material of Aluminium is Bauxit (Turkey has 422 million ton reserve, exploitable 63 million ton). After some chemical processes, Bauxit is converted to Alumina material and, in following process, Aluminium can be produced.

• ETI Aluminium has 82,000 ton/year premier Aluminium (Consumption of Turkiye is 600,000ton/year), 200,000ton/year Alumina production. In 2018, ETI Aluminium agreed to make an addition investment worth 540 million $ to increase production rate of primer Aluminium. New investment make ETI the 4th biggest primer Aluminium production facility of Europe and 8th of the World. ETI will provide Aluminium armor solutions thanks to new investment.

• Oyak purchased Almatis group that is one of the biggest alumina production facility of the World. Almatis has 10 production facility, 4 factory, 1 rafinery and 6 R&D center all around the World.

 

[cabatli_53]

About steel production,

Oyak Mine group factories ( Erdemir, Isdemir, ErdemirRo ) become 3rd biggest steel producer of Europe in 2016/2017 and 2018 years. Oyak group agreed to make a new investment worth 1 billion $ for Erdemir to increase the steel production capacity while improving the productivity thanks to new generation technologies.

Oyak Mine group, Erdemir provides steel blocks for Turkish Naval Warship programs such as Milgem, Istanbul class frigates. With new investment, Unique steels like Hy-100/130 will be produced for submarine programs.

OYAK bought the steel company MIILUX (Finland). MIILUX OY is now producing advanced armor steel in Manisa, Turkiye. Around 1000 companies use MiiluxOy steels all around the World.

Oyak is negotiating to buy British Steel. Negotiations are proceesing with British officials at present. It will be announced to public in a short time.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/09/mystery-bidder-joins-race-to-buy-british-steel


OYAK is Turkey’s the biggest privately-owned Armed Forces pension fund.

 

[denel]

About steel production,

Oyak Mine group factories ( Erdemir, Isdemir, ErdemirRo ) become 3rd biggest steel producer of Europe in 2016/2017 and 2018 years. Oyak group agreed to make a new investment worth 1 billion $ for Erdemir to increase the steel production capacity while improving the productivity thanks to new generation technologies.

Oyak Mine group, Erdemir provides steel blocks for Turkish Naval Warship programs such as Milgem, Istanbul class frigates. With new investment, Unique steels like Hy-100/130 will be produced for submarine programs.

OYAK bought the steel company MIILUX (Finland). MIILUX OY is now producing advanced armor steel in Manisa, Turkiye. Around 1000 companies use MiiluxOy steels all around the World.

Oyak is negotiating to buy British Steel. Negotiations are proceesing with British officials at present. It will be announced to public in a short time.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/09/mystery-bidder-joins-race-to-buy-british-steel


OYAK is Turkey’s the biggest privately-owned Armed Forces pension fund.

correct these core steps done in turkey are for every industry to benefit. that is called having a vision.

 

[araz]

correct these core steps done in turkey are for every industry to benefit. that is called having a vision.

The difference here is that Turkey has had no dearth of offers from EU, and indeed Israel and US whereas Pakistan has been treated as a social pariah. The infrastructure required to take that leap exists in Turkey while we struggle with the basic infrastructure. Also Turkey has turned the financial corner and is now in Black while we are hopelessly in the red. For once we both have honest leadership with a vision so hopefully the two brotherly countries will progress together.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The difference here is that Turkey has had no dearth of offers from EU, and indeed Israel and US whereas Pakistan has been treated as a social pariah. The infrastructure required to take that leap exista in Turkey while we struggle with the basic infrastructure. Also Turkey has turned the financial corner and is now in Black while we are hopelessly in the red. For once we both have honest leadership with a vision so hopefully the two brothey countries will progress together.
A

Turkey also has mature processes.

So their army-run businesses aren't managed by army officers (or even retired ones), but professional business people who do have the time and drive to build connections in the EU, advance product lines, and do the leg work necessary to boost the bottom line.

I think the Army needs to 'let go' of the wheel of its enterprises. It's one thing to own them, but why post some generals to run the day-to-day? It neither benefits the Army or the business.

We can turn Fauji Industries into an export powerhouse that brings USD to Pakistan, thereby supporting retired personnel, their families, generate net new employment for civilians, advance industry, etc.

Unfortunately, we Pakistanis have a very binary way of thinking. We either hate the Army and Fauji Industries and wish them all to hell, or we love them so, so much we can't even think about objectively analyzing them. I say, we take the middle road and make the most of what we have. Ultimately, that's how Turkey got ahead.

 

[denel]

Turkey also has mature processes.

So their army-run businesses aren't managed by army officers (or even retired ones), but professional business people who do have the time and drive to build connections in the EU, advance product lines, and do the leg work necessary to boost the bottom line.

I think the Army needs to 'let go' of the wheel of its enterprises. It's one thing to own them, but why post some generals to run the day-to-day? It neither benefits the Army or the business.

We can turn Fauji Industries into an export powerhouse that brings USD to Pakistan, thereby supporting retired personnel, their families, generate net new employment for civilians, advance industry, etc.

Unfortunately, we Pakistanis have a very binary way of thinking. We either hate the Army and Fauji Industries and wish them all to hell, or we love them so, so much we can't even think about objectively analyzing them. I say, we take the middle road and make the most of what we have. Ultimately, that's how Turkey got ahead.

As we have spoken before, we need to have independent institutions far away from these mil run institutions. The issue has been turf guarding and ensureing only one party gets funding. If this needs to be a seperation within the institution with no cross over; think of it like Client/Customer.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As we have spoken before, we need to have independent institutions far away from these mil run institutions. The issue has been turf guarding and ensureing only one party gets funding. If this needs to be a seperation within the institution with no cross over; think of it like Client/Customer.

Absolutely, but the 'meat' right now is with the armed forces.

We need to somehow convince them that (1) there's a way to add more meat for everyone and (2) give that newly generated meat to new non-military entities. It's a give-and-take, but the crux here is that there's a lot of untapped potential even within the armed forces' businesses that, if leveraged, will benefit them and the country more.

@cabatli_53 might know more, but I feel as though when Erdogan came in, he somehow convinced the Turkish Armed Forces to hire industry professionals to run TAI, TEI, etc., and take a back seat (as shareholders/board of directors). Once that happened in the mid-2000s, these companies became huge by 2016.

 

[sparten]

The Government and military absolutely wants the private sector involved.
It’s a good idea. Even if every military industrial installation is combined, their size is that of a small to mid level industrial group. The private sector, has a lot more capacity for both production and research. Plus they have their own economies.,of scale.
But the private sector has its own issues.
Such as
1. Erupting expansion in cost. These are corporate entities, who need to show a profit to their shareholders. Since a lot of military hardware involves small scale production and a limited client base, this means to keep them viable, the price will have to be sufficient to make it worthwhile.

2. Security. Look at the US and UK. The biggest leaks have been through the contractors. Once you have a diffuse, mostly civilian based workforce, your security problems grow exponentially.

@Oscar said elsewhere.

Again, our industry’s motto(for better or for worse) is to only undertake indigenous research and production of technology that is either not available to us and/or is a low hanging fruit.

The issue is the allocation of resources. They can either go to production or research. So it has to be divided.
For really high level stuff, like strategic missiles and warheads, we have done really deep R&D. Which has resulted in some shocking lethal and advanced stuff. Such as the various iterations of GLCM and SSM. Stuff, the Turks and others can only dream about.
We have certainly followed the other way for mid to high level stuff. And continue still rely on exports for some alarmingly low level stuff. Like mortars. ‍

I would begin a phased policy of contracting out various stuff to private Industry.
Starting with small arms and munitions, and as many vehicles as possible.
Then we can go onto more advanced stuff, like aviation.

As an aside, I think one of the reasons the AK Tank project struggled was since it was being made in HIT. I would ideally like to see HIT and POF converted into mostly a research and develop,met Organization, which contract out production. With perhaps a secondary focus on training,
Once a tank is designed, the actual nuts and bolts is simple.
Let private industry bid for large scale manufacturing contracts of HIT and POF designs.