Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

[ziaulislam]

The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.

The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.

The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.

Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.

I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.

They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.

Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD

Civilians are there if generals allow it .
Generals thing of civilians as idiots

It comes from personal experience work briefly at wah cantt hospital.

Turkey only moved forward when generals were kicked out

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,.,

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=775794413574808

 

[Corax]

The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.

The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.

The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.

Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.

I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.

They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.

Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD

I'm actually constantly surprised Pakistan even still exists in its current form and hasn't gone the way of Afghanistan or Somalia. The way most of the Pakistani political establishment is at each others necks and out for themselves, selling the country for their own pockets, it's little wonder there is no nationalist movement to bring about order and cohesion. That role has traditionally been done by the army, and given their backseat approach, the vultures are having a field day with the country almost bankrupt. The only thing that keeps Pakistanis together it seems is their common foe India.

 

[ghazi52]

,..,

Heavy Payload & Endurance ,
using AESA Radar Capability to launch KGK-82PGB Teber-82LGB ALCM & BVRAAM [in process].
Equipped with Dual SATCOM,
E-support system,
Dual AI Avionics real time enhanced signal processing,
Sensor fusion & S.Awareness.

 

[Super Falcon]

Pakistan must get its own indigenous satellite like India to fully contr drones with no info leaked to china or usa

 

[Corax]

Pakistan must get its own indigenous satellite like India to fully contr drones with no info leaked to china or usa

What makes you think they haven't already?

 

[Super Falcon]

What makes you think they haven't already?

Because fact is what ever satellites we have are on leased we use them partially china has total control over their functions we never designed or sent any satellite yet

 

[sparten]

Really .... ???

It is very sad news to hear as Azm MALE UAV was in prototype stage .... I still remember following pic

View attachment 867906

Still on as far as I know.

 

[Fasbre2]

Because fact is what ever satellites we have are on leased we use them partially china has total control over their functions we never designed or sent any satellite yet

With Pdm crooks in power, there never will be, all funds will be diverted to crooks accounts..

 

[sparten]

The PAF leadership is stuck between a rock and hard place.

The "rock" is that the general state of our economy makes defence purchases more and more difficult.

The "hard place" is that the PAF broadly understands that "local sourcing" helps make defence more affordable (from a ForEx standpoint). However, the PAF cannot organizationally split itself from fighting in order to be an R&D org, or Ministry of Development, or Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc.

Ultimately, the fact that we have generals going into these non-fighting spheres speaks to both a vacuum in those spheres and an overstep. The latter happens, but it's not always malicious. It's just that no one else is doing it.

I think, at some level, the real "gap" is the lack of a hawkish political leadership. Logically, if your political leadership believes in fortifying Pakistan's defenses or even exerting Pakistani interests in other lands, they'd work to strengthen the economy.

They'll take whatever steps necessary to ensure the armed forces get the money they need for their function. Turkey manifested that leadership through Erdogan. India is doing it through Modi. China has been doing it since day 1.

Look, all I'm saying is, @Zarvan for Amir and @MastanKhan for Chief Qadi. Let's go @SQ8 @JamD

Explain the Army then? The most politicised service. Yet they keep being able to get good systems developed through NESCOM and the various Taxila institutes.
In the UAV field NESCOM has managed to field multiple generations of capable UAV while all the much vaunted brains at Kamra have done is produce licensed copies.
We have had the Flamingo and Uqaab drones in the 2000's, the Shahpar, Burraq and now Shahpar II.
The answer is that the PAF top brass sees UAV as a threat to their manned aircraft while the Army leadership sees it as a major force multiplier for ground units.

This is the same reason the PAF was so dilatory in the development of BM back in the 1990's that the Army had to eventually take over, otherwise there is no reason for the Army to have any BM with ranges longer than 300km.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Explain the Army then? The most politicised service. Yet they keep being able to get good systems developed through NESCOM and the various Taxila institutes.
In the UAV field NESCOM has managed to field multiple generations of capable UAV while all the much vaunted brains at Kamra have done is produce licensed copies.
We have had the Flamingo and Uqaab drones in the 2000's, the Shahpar, Burraq and now Shahpar II.
The answer is that the PAF top brass sees UAV as a threat to their manned aircraft while the Army leadership sees it as a major force multiplier for ground units.

This is the same reason the PAF was so dilatory in the development of BM back in the 1990's that the Army had to eventually take over, otherwise there is no reason for the Army to have any BM with ranges longer than 300km.

The drone models available in the 2000s brought limited utility or value to the PAF's requirements.

The Selex Falco had played a pretty decent role in supporting the PAF's TST requirements for COIN/CT. However, Selex couldn't commit to delivering a larger drone for delivering weapon payloads or higher-powered sensor payloads. This was around 2012-2015.

Things began changing around 2016-2017 when Chinese and Turkish suppliers started working on proper MALE UAV designs, e.g., CH-4, CH-5 and Wing Loong-series in China, and the Bayraktar and Anka-series in Turkey.

Once those designs became available, the PAF basically indicated it would start adding them to its fleet. For example, the PAF is basically a confirmed operator of the Bayraktar TB2 and a probable Wing Loong II and Bayraktar Akinci buyer.

The PAF never considered UAVs as a "threat" to its manned aircraft. Rather, it had wanted drones because it could greatly expand its ELINT and ISR coverages to a level that wasn't possible with manned platforms. However, the PAF never had access to a proper Predator-class or Reaper-class drone until a few years ago.

If anything, the reason why the PAF isn't buying Shahpar-IIs (rather than TB2s) probably has to do with petty inter-service rivalry. NESCOM is working with TAI on an Anka variant, but I doubt the PAF would buy it. It'll likely be a Baykar Makina customer.

 

[Tipu7]

Dead. Victim of inexperience, egos, and the general lack of R&D appetite for a fighting force like PAF.

Back in 2018 I posed the question regarding PAF capability to develop 5+ gen aircraft. I asked this question from ACM Sohail Aman during a seminar. My point was that PAC is barely producing a basic 4th Gen fighter after mutual collaboration with China. How come it will develop 5+ Gen fighter in future? Isn't it better to join TFX project? Or explore J20 or J31 options?

He in return showed his trust on Pakistani talent pool. He also ensured that Azm might suffer delays, but it will be developed bcuz it's destiny of PAF. He, however, said that he won't comment anything regarding TFX. He called J31 a terrible plane and J20 a good aircraft.

Ever since, I kept my hope despite knowing very well that he was too optimistic. I was curious in what capacity PAF will develop Azm. But deep inside I knew that such ambitious project is far far from PAF capacity.

 

[JamD]

Back in 2018 I posed the question regarding PAF capability to develop 5+ gen aircraft. I asked this question from ACM Sohail Aman during a seminar. My point was that PAC is barely producing a basic 4th Gen fighter after mutual collaboration with China. How come it will develop 5+ Gen fighter in future? Isn't it better to join TFX project? Or explore J20 or J31 options?

He in return showed his trust on Pakistani talent pool. He also ensured that Azm might suffer delays, but it will be developed bcuz it's destiny of PAF. He, however, said that he won't comment anything regarding TFX. He called J31 a terrible plane and J20 a good aircraft.

Ever since, I kept my hope despite knowing very well that he was too optimistic. I was curious in what capacity PAF will develop Azm. But deep inside I knew that such ambitious project is far far from PAF capacity.

Spot on thinking I think

 

[JamD]

Back in 2018 I posed the question regarding PAF capability to develop 5+ gen aircraft. I asked this question from ACM Sohail Aman during a seminar. My point was that PAC is barely producing a basic 4th Gen fighter after mutual collaboration with China. How come it will develop 5+ Gen fighter in future? Isn't it better to join TFX project? Or explore J20 or J31 options?

He in return showed his trust on Pakistani talent pool. He also ensured that Azm might suffer delays, but it will be developed bcuz it's destiny of PAF. He, however, said that he won't comment anything regarding TFX. He called J31 a terrible plane and J20 a good aircraft.

Ever since, I kept my hope despite knowing very well that he was too optimistic. I was curious in what capacity PAF will develop Azm. But deep inside I knew that such ambitious project is far far from PAF capacity.

The sad part is that I think that some sort of program should've been seen to completion because all of the things the PAF has learnt with the JF17 will be lost. This loss of expertise has happened several several times in our history. Companies run programs simply to keep their workforce current. PAF doesn't understand the criticality of this. This is one of the reasons that indiginization doesn't stick in Pakistan.

IMHO a more humble program should've been pursued. Perhaps an advanced jet trainer. Or a UCAV. Something much lower risk, complexity, and cost. Even that would be a huge effort. But these things take time and practice. Azm was trying to get to the moon when you haven't even invented airplanes. I've also heard what people outside of Pakistan say of Azm and it is deeply embarrassing for me.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The sad part is that I think that some sort of program should've been seen to completion because all of the things the PAF has learnt with the JF17 will be lost. This loss of expertise has happened several several times in our history. Companies run programs simply to keep their workforce current. PAF doesn't understand the criticality of this. This is one of the reasons that indiginization doesn't stick in Pakistan.

IMHO a more humble program should've been pursued. Perhaps an advanced jet trainer. Or a UCAV. Something much lower risk, complexity, and cost. Even that would be a huge effort. But these things take time and practice. Azm was trying to get to the moon when you haven't even invented airplanes. I've also heard what people outside of Pakistan say of Azm and it is deeply embarrassing for me.

It might be reinventing the wheel, but starting with an aerobatic trainer to succeed the Super Mushshak would've been a good idea.