Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[JamD]

IIRC...the KAAN's fairly close in size to the F-22? @JamD

Consider this a more accurate size comparison:

So your feeling was right that that picture was making the F22 look smaller than it really is. Notice how the F22 vertical tails reach up till where Kaan's vertical tails are even though Kaan sits much higher.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am not "youngman". On the contrary, I'm too old (50 years old) to argue with people who think their prejudices are knowledge.

Hi,

Sorry about that---my 67 to your 50. Love you brother---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Poorer (in comparison, not poor) engine tech mean longer fighters ... one can see that in Chinese jets as well.
As they mature, engine sizes will come down along with fighter lengths.

Hi,

You are correct.

To run the engine efficiently---the intake runners have to be longer for optimum airflow to compensate the technology restraints in the non american 5th gen TYPE aircraft.

Now---looking the chinese J-31---it would be interesting to know what the chinese did with that aircraft's inlets---.

 

[MastanKhan]

I'll have to double check the dimensions (I can easily) but I am reasonably sure that Kaan's current undercarriage is definitely taller than the F-22's. I don't know why that is. There's a whole series of guesses of logic that I have but I don't feel comfortable sharing them because they are just guesses and people might take them too seriously. I would just keep in mind that this is the first prototype and this is what Kaan looked on design boards maybe 3 4 years ago, not what it looks like right now, if you know what I mean.

Hi,

Just like the F16's---the F22's under carriage is lower. They were never designed originally to carry long range heavy air to surface missiles under belly.

 

[Jamie Brooks]

Hi,

Kaan is bigger than the F-22.

It has longer intake runners than the F-22 to reach optimal air intake---.

Which means that the F-22 with shorter intake runners has far superior design technology to get the desired effect on the incoming air into the engine---.

The intakes also start closer to the canopy aswell then f-35 or f-22. Wonder if it really was due to intake design being not as advanced or they had problems with structural reinforcement if they did one similar to f-22 .

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

They are hoping Turkish engines come online

You have to wait for the indigenous engine.

Depending & waiting upon a new engine by totally new comer isn't smart approach. I know Turkey has done some great achievements in defense sector within last decade or so, but aircraft engine is the most critical and most complex part. It takes decades to R&D, and then years to get mature before we can be assure that it's reliable. It has to go throw immense temperatures and constantly perform. We can put entire Turkish aviation successes at one side and supersonic fighter jet Engine development at the other side. You need some deep pockets and resources to begin with.
Chinese are decades ahead of Turkey in aviation technologies, they got unlimited resources, great man-power and still took them a long time before they could equip their J-20s with WS-10 engines. Takes a long time to fully determine if new engine is reliable. They used russian engines earlier. Chinese had even experience with smaller thrust engines before hand. Turkey with limited resources going straight for such a high thrust engine won't be a smooth ride. I don't see localized turkish engines for KAAN anytime before 2040.

PAF is quite serious. Keep in mind PAF wants to buy block 30 onwards - not block 10 or 20. The primary hope is that the Turkish engine comes online by then. Otherwise, Russian/Chinese engines MAY be considered but they will be a hard sell for the Turks because they'll have to deal with an additional vendor and incorporate an additional engine which is a whole other can of worms. Don't expect PAF to think about Kaan before 2030.

Yep, I am not expecting KAAN before 2035-40. Only possibility to have it in PAF in early 2030s is to go with Russian or Chinese engines. It do adds a vendor but gives a reliable engine that are matured already. Somehow, I believe this will be the route PAF will take for its variant. PAF has experience with both russian & chinese engines. Also, I am not sure how much resources and how bigger team Turkey has committed for KAAN's engines specifically. Because they know, they are going to get US engines and their all efforts or priorities would be to develop the aircraft first (with US engines) and later worry about Turkey's own localized engines.

 

[xbat]

Depending & waiting upon a new engine by totally new comer isn't smart approach. I know Turkey has done some great achievements in defense sector within last decade or so, but aircraft engine is the most critical and most complex part. It takes decades to R&D, and then years to get mature before we can be assure that it's reliable. It has to go throw immense temperatures and constantly perform. We can put entire Turkish aviation successes at one side and supersonic fighter jet Engine development at the other side. You need some deep pockets and resources to begin with.
Chinese are decades ahead of Turkey in aviation technologies, they got unlimited resources, great man-power and still took them a long time before they could equip their J-20s with WS-10 engines. Takes a long time to fully determine if new engine is reliable. They used russian engines earlier. Chinese had even experience with smaller thrust engines before hand. Turkey with limited resources going straight for such a high thrust engine won't be a smooth ride. I don't see localized turkish engines for KAAN anytime before 2040.



Yep, I am not expecting KAAN before 2035-40. Only possibility to have it in PAF in early 2030s is to go with Russian or Chinese engines. It do adds a vendor but gives a reliable engine that are matured already. Somehow, I believe this will be the route PAF will take for its variant. PAF has experience with both russian & chinese engines. Also, I am not sure how much resources and how bigger team Turkey has committed for KAAN's engines specifically. Because they know, they are going to get US engines and their all efforts or priorities would be to develop the aircraft first (with US engines) and later worry about Turkey's own localized engines.

China spent decades for developing engines, so? what is the relation with turkish engine development? china is big today, it was not yesterday! turkish aviation industry is a part of western aviation industry, TAI and TEI makes tons of parts for airbus, boeing lockheed , GE, safran , honeywell etc. TEI made engine parts is used 1/2 of whole aircrafts on planet.

Turkey has an airworthy turboshaft engine today, so basically we solved metallurgical problems. design and test take some serious time, there are at least 300 engineers working on KAAN engine and conceptual design phase passed. We are not sure to get GE engines for KAAN we just hope because we already produce them in turkey for decades. every f16 turkey has flies with TEI f110 engine.

we made this kind of talks for KAAN itself a couple years ago, no one wants to talk about KAAN anymore because it is reality today.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkiye has West-NATO standard Engine technologies since 1985 collaboration with American GE


Chiniese Engine technology was based on Soviet turbofan Engine technology which using different method instead of single crystal blade


Now only USA , UK , France , Turkiye , China have bliks-spool and single crystal blade technologes in the world .... maybe also Russia-Ukraine


in 2020 when I said TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in 2024 , most of People called this claim as fantasy

RESULT : Turkiye has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine turboshaft Engine within 7 years and enter mass production in 2024

now Turkiye produce 10.000 lbf TF-10.000 turbofan Engine for the first ignition in 2024

TF10000 Engine project has great importance and experience to 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine to be ready for KAAN Fighter Jet until 2033

in 2018 Turkiye has started developing turbofan engine for KAAN Fighter Jet
and Everybody will see the first prototype of 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine in 2026-2028 peiod

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

China spent decades for developing engines, so? what is the relation with turkish engine development? china is big today, it was not yesterday! turkish aviation industry is a part of western aviation industry, TAI and TEI makes tons of parts for airbus, boeing lockheed , GE, safran , honeywell etc. TEI made engine parts is used 1/2 of whole aircrafts on planet.

Turkey has an airworthy turboshaft engine today, so basically we solved metallurgical problems. design and test take some serious time, there are at least 300 engineers working on KAAN engine and conceptual design phase passed. We are not sure to get GE engines for KAAN we just hope because we already produce them in turkey for decades. every f16 turkey has flies with TEI f110 engine.

we made this kind of talks for KAAN itself a couple years ago, no one wants to talk about KAAN anymore because it is reality today.

I never said KAAN is not a reality. I believe Turkish airforce will start getting KAAN (with american engines) by 2030. I am only not so sure about Pakistani variant as american engines are a no-go. For Turkish local engine, you cannot compare license production to totally indigenous design & development. Both are very different. The engine size / thrust is also widely different.

Secondly, its also about commitment and intent, If Turkey is already going ahead with KAAN using the american engines, it means that's the priority and localized engine thing is only as a plan-b. That's somehing Pakistan cannot depend upon. So, that's why I think that Russian / Chinese already available and matured engines are more viable options for the Pakistani variant.

 

[xbat]

I never said KAAN is not a reality. I believe Turkish airforce will start getting KAAN (with american engines) by 2030. I am only not so sure about Pakistani variant as american engines are a no-go. For Turkish local engine, you cannot compare license production to totally indigenous design & development. Both are very different. The engine size / thrust is also widely different.

Secondly, its also about commitment and intent, If Turkey is already going ahead with KAAN using the american engines, it means that's the priority and localized engine thing is only as a plan-b. That's somehing Pakistan cannot depend upon. So, that's why I think that Russian / Chinese already available and matured engines are more viable options for the Pakistani variant.

making local engine is not plan b, our air force is lagging behind , we need to boost our airforce with new planes until our engine come. it is said that first 20 KAAN will use f110 engines rest will go with TEI engine. TAI can make 2-3 aircraft per month easily , after 2030 , 2 for Turaf and 1 for export , seems logical. i give no chance for russian and chineese engines, they would cause many headaches.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Turkiye has West-NATO standard Engine technologies since 1985 collaboration with American GE


Chiniese Engine technology was based on Soviet turbofan Engine technology which using different method instead of single crystal blade


Now only USA , UK , France , Turkiye , China have bliks-spool and single crystal blade technologes in the world .... maybe also Russia-Ukraine


in 2020 when I said TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in 2024 , most of People called this claim as fantasy

RESULT : Turkiye has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine turboshaft Engine within 7 years and enter mass production in 2024
View attachment 967148
View attachment 967149


now Turkiye produce 10.000 lbf TF-10.000 turbofan Engine for the first ignition in 2024
View attachment 967150

TF10000 Engine project has great importance and experience to 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine to be ready for KAAN Fighter Jet until 2033

in 2018 Turkiye has started developing turbofan engine for KAAN Fighter Jet
and Everybody will see the first prototype of 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine in 2026-2028 peiod
View attachment 967173

What's the MTBO for the said Turkish turbofans?

 

[Hold the door]

What's the MTBO for the said Turkish turbofans?

Are you kidding, there is no turbofan engine yet.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Are you kidding, there is no turbofan engine yet.

Exactly, so all this talk about Turkish engine tech being great and of a Western standard is too soon to comment about.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I think Turkey has an edge over China and Russia. They have had more than a decade long exposure to working with and for western aircraft/engine manufacturers. That ensures relatively easier access to modern technology and production practices.

Furthermore, Turk students can study certain technologies and subjects in best of the European unis, that are not accessible to Russian, Chinese students.

And I believe Rolls Royace has been approached for a joint collaboration to help produce a definitive engine for KAAN. For the right number of Deneros, it can be done.

 

[Hold the door]

Exactly, so all this talk about Turkish engine tech being great and of a Western standard is too soon to comment about.

No, of course it will be discussed now. Our TEI TS1400 turboshaft engine is the best engine in the world in its field.

We do not have a turbofan engine but we have been a partner of GE for 40 years. We have received excellence awards from GE many times. Almost all passenger planes flying in the air have TEI parts.