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Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

Pakistan Turkey cooperation for for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft , was highlighted in Pakistani media for a few months but then silent.
Is there any possibility that Turkey will sell TFX fighters to Pakistan after final manufacturing start in Turkey , late ??
 
turkish systems are a necessity for pakistan, esp when it no longer enjoys direct access to european tech. chinese tech, while good, should not be the only basket for all our eggs.
 
If you want to understand the mentality of the Turkish ruling elite versus the Pakistani ruling elite, carefully listen to Dr. Temel Kotil.

He said, "you have a great asset here -- 200 million people, we only have 80 million people back in Turkiye." Point being, the man sees the population as energy to be unlocked via education and skill-building, whereas our leaders see them as filth. The guy is more deserving to lead Pakistan than any of our current politicians and generals. Imagine that. @JamD @Falcon26

 
All this Turkey stuff is all based on GE engine. US could limit its export any time they want. With Pakistan, there is a danger of China getting hold of GE engine technology.
 
If you want to understand the mentality of the Turkish ruling elite versus the Pakistani ruling elite, carefully listen to Dr. Temel Kotil.

He said, "you have a great asset here -- 200 million people, we only have 80 million people back in Turkiye." Point being, the man sees the population as energy to be unlocked via education and skill-building, whereas our leaders see them as filth. The guy is more deserving to lead Pakistan than any of our current politicians and generals. Imagine that. @JamD @Falcon26

I think the time to join any Turkish or Chinese FGFA project has pretty much passed
We do not really have anything for Give &Take in technological capacity

It's probably a time to Re-Engineer JF 17 like building homegrown FCS and Mission Control computers and other key software/Hardware parts for JF 17 and in parallel developing a Loyal Wingman UAV for JF 17
Granted LW tech belongs to Sixth Gen fighters but i believe it will finally trickle down to 4th Gen fighters as well
And this will keep them relevant to future digital battle fields

We can have joint venture with Turkey in their Sixth Generation fighter.
We have a sample in the form of JF 17 with full IP rights.Lets play with what we have in hands instead of wasting time in indecisiveness about KAAN.
 
I think the time to join any Turkish or Chinese FGFA project has pretty much passed
We do not really have anything for Give &Take in technological capacity

It's probably a time to Re-Engineer JF 17 like building homegrown FCS and Mission Control computers and other key software/Hardware parts for JF 17 and in parallel developing a Loyal Wingman UAV for JF 17
Granted LW tech belongs to Sixth Gen fighters but i believe it will finally trickle down to 4th Gen fighters as well
And this will keep them relevant to future digital battle fields

We can have joint venture with Turkey in their Sixth Generation fighter.
We have a sample in the form of JF 17 with full IP rights.Lets play with what we have in hands instead of wasting time in indecisiveness about KAAN.
Agreed. The goal shouldn't be to 'join' any program; rather, we should build our aerospace expertise across R&D, design, and manufacturing with the goal of selling services to whoever needs it, domestic or foreign. Unfortunately, we have a weak mindset where we need to show some type of project (like JF-17) to demonstrate success, even if we didn't develop anything of our own (like JF-17).

However, if we focus on building capacity first, we could position ourselves into offering development and production services to others, like Turkiye or even Western countries. So, instead of a single flagship project, we'd be building wings, stabilizers, fuselages and other inputs for a wide variety of aircraft. NASTP was set up with this in mind, but it's not run by actual industry leaders, like Temel Kotil, for example.
 
If you want to understand the mentality of the Turkish ruling elite versus the Pakistani ruling elite, carefully listen to Dr. Temel Kotil.

He said, "you have a great asset here -- 200 million people, we only have 80 million people back in Turkiye." Point being, the man sees the population as energy to be unlocked via education and skill-building, whereas our leaders see them as filth. The guy is more deserving to lead Pakistan than any of our current politicians and generals. Imagine that. @JamD @Falcon26

I know it sounds like a lazy argument but the more I've thought about it, the more it has made sense. ALL of this is explained by two words: colonial hangover. Our ruling elite slid into the shoes left by the British. Everything makes sense once you think along those lines.

However, if we focus on building capacity first, we could position ourselves into offering development and production services to others, like Turkiye or even Western countries. So, instead of a single flagship project, we'd be building wings, stabilizers, fuselages and other inputs for a wide variety of aircraft. NASTP was set up with this in mind, but it's not run by actual industry leaders, like Temel Kotil, for example.
The Turks understand this and are pushing very very hard to get us to do this. I must say that they are determined enough/dheet to deal with us as far as I've seen. No western country would have that level of patience.
 
I know it sounds like a lazy argument but the more I've thought about it, the more it has made sense. ALL of this is explained by two words: colonial hangover. Our ruling elite slid into the shoes left by the British. Everything makes sense once you think along those lines.


The Turks understand this and are pushing very very hard to get us to do this. I must say that they are determined enough/dheet to deal with us as far as I've seen. No western country would have that level of patience.
tbh...I think the Turks' dheet stems from their Ottoman legacy. Though Turkiye was occupied, it was never colonized; the Turks of today are the same Turks who had established and spread a superstate. In contrast, the British colonized South Asia and replaced the original elite with their own loyalists. That said, a few remnant Mughal-era elites remained via the Princely States, but those were eventually removed too (most notably Osmanistan).

So, when the modern nation states emerged, the Republic of Turkiye was drawing on what was left by the Ottomans and, most importantly, the same stock of elites. Mustafa Kemal, for example, was an Ottoman officer before becoming a Republican officer. OTOH, Pakistan drew from what the British Empire of India left, and that stock were colonial administrators, not visionaries or nation-builders.

The Turks are not dealing with us for the sake of it, but because they have a vision or project they want to achieve. That's how visionary elites think.

There's no point blaming the British at this point. In fact, there is a runway to go from a colonial administrator-type state to a proper state -- see what the Americans did at the time of their revolution. Basically, our elites or 'establishment' need a transition point where they evolve or change into pioneers or nation-builders. The American Revolutionary vision formed as a project, and that project stayed alive just enough for when the American elites desired it.

Optimistically, I think the Pakistani project is emerging -- e.g., this forum and the growing number of podcasts focusing on our political development and society. For their part, the Turks might be trying to accelerate it by getting our elites to think as nation-builders, not administrators.
 
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All developed countries (USA,Russia,Japan,China,Germany,Canada,UK) had a solid pure nationalist ,devoted leadership for years, who made them a developed powerful country today. If you want to make Pakistan a developed, modern , independent country then you all Pakistani need a revolutionary approache by removing (by hook or crook) all selfish, corrupt, idiot powerful leaders, polititian, army generals, judges and foreigner elements.
 
I know it sounds like a lazy argument but the more I've thought about it, the more it has made sense. ALL of this is explained by two words: colonial hangover. Our ruling elite slid into the shoes left by the British. Everything makes sense once you think along those lines.


The Turks understand this and are pushing very very hard to get us to do this. I must say that they are determined enough/dheet to deal with us as far as I've seen. No western country would have that level of patience.
tbh...I think the Turks' dheet stems from their Ottoman legacy. Though Turkiye was occupied, it was never colonized; the Turks of today are the same Turks who had established and spread a superstate. In contrast, the British colonized South Asia and replaced the original elite with their own loyalists. That said, a few remnant Mughal-era elites remained via the Princely States, but those were eventually removed too (most notably Osmanistan).

So, when the modern nation states emerged, the Republic of Turkiye was drawing on what was left by the Ottomans and, most importantly, the same stock of elites. Mustafa Kemal, for example, was an Ottoman officer before becoming a Republican officer. OTOH, Pakistan drew from what the British Empire of India left, and that stock were colonial administrators, not visionaries or nation-builders.

The Turks are not dealing with us for the sake of it, but because they have a vision or project they want to achieve. That's how visionary elites think.

There's no point blaming the British at this point. In fact, there is a runway to go from a colonial administrator-type state to a proper state -- see what the Americans did at the time of their revolution. Basically, our elites or 'establishment' need a transition point where they evolve or change into pioneers or nation-builders. The American Revolutionary vision formed as a project, and that project stayed alive just enough for when the American elites desired it.

Optimistically, I think the Pakistani project is emerging -- e.g., this forum and the growing number of podcasts focusing on our political development and society. For their part, the Turks might be trying to accelerate it by getting our elites to think as nation-builders, not administrators.

Personally, I’m all for the Turks dragging us kicking & screaming into becoming a respectable country. Maybe, the Chinese could help & give us a good kick from the behind as well.
 
Personally, I’m all for the Turks dragging us kicking & screaming into becoming a respectable country. Maybe, the Chinese could help & give us a good kick from the behind as well.
Don't be mistaken to think that the Turks will fix Pakistan. Their interest is only their national interest. Same as any other country. Only Pakistanis can fix Pakistan. We need to stop looking for abbus everywhere.
 

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