Pakistan, Turkey friendship rooted in history: Ayaz

[M. Sarmad]

I don't know which Ulema's you are following but in Islam Men and Women are equal in rights, .


Anyways this should hopefully be my final comment here on this thread

I don't follow any Ulema. I follow the Holy Qur'an. And I agree with your understanding/interpretation of Islam regarding equality of men and women.

Have a nice day

 

[BRAVO_]

Which history?

Mughals came from Africa to rule india ... who said they were turks

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

@RAMPAGE

Jinnah was absolutely clear on what he was doing ... :

1) Jinnah wanted a state where every one would be "equal citizen of the state" irrespective of religion, caste,ethnicity etc.. where religion would be a "personal matter" and not the "business of the state" (In Jinnah's own words)... Jinnah strongly disapproved of the idea of having a theocratic or "Islamic" state .. (which we are today ,.. unfortunately..)

2) Jinnah (and Iqbal too) believed that this kind of separation of church from state (i.e secularism) was perfectly "Islamic" ... and that Islam in its true spirit was purely "democratic" ... Both these ideas were rejected by the orthodox Muslims .. While Democracy has been accepted by the majority of Muslisms today, "accepting secularism" may take another few decades ...

3) Jinnah and conservatives/Mullahs were diametrically opposed in their interpretation of Islam ... What Jinnah and Iqbal believed was the "true spirit" of Islam, that was considered "Kufr" and "Shirk" by the Mullahs ....

4) Today conservatives claim that Jinnah wanted an "Islamic Pakistan" and to prove their point they quote speeches/interviews of Jinnah where he has talked about Islam, but then they very conveniently replace Jinnah`s definition of Islam with Mullah`s definition of Islam (which is opposite to Jinnah`s def.) ... The result is that one gets an impression that either Jinnah was confused and had no clear vision OR he was a hypocrite who wanted a secular constitution but talked about Islam (supposedly anti secular) .... Truth is, the only hypocrites are the Mullahs and the conservatives ... Jinnah and Iqbal had a clear vision .... A progressive and modern Pakistan based on "reinterpretation" of Islamic teachings .... Secular and Democratic .. Secularism and democracy that would not be western but Islamic ... !!!

Dr. Javed Iqbal (Allama Iqbal`s son) explains this in the following words ...... it is self-evident that there is complete harmony in the views of Quaid-i-Azam and Allama Iqbal regarding the establishment of a modern Islamic democratic welfare state in Pakistan. The founders of Pakistan certainly had a very clear vision. They approved of a definite interpretation of Islam on which they founded Pakistan, and according to them, it was only through that interpretation that the Muslims could possibly realize their objectives in the newly created Muslim state.

Western secularism is all about separation of state from religion. And later you say Pakistan was not about Western secularism but it's own version of secularism.. seems youare confused on this one. So far you have given me only indirect references of Jinnah wanting a 'secular' Pakistan. Do you have a direct quote ?why was Jinnah shy to utter the 'S' word ? He was not..he knew people will confuse it with Western secularism. there are indirect quotes of Jinnah asking for theocracy as well so let's not go there. If u can bring quotes of people who though t jinnah was 'secular' there are much more people who voted and can be quoted in favor of objective resolution. The bottom. Line is jinnah wanted Islamic socialism for Pakistan.. a democratic state which practices Islamic principles decided by its citizens(which means affairs of the state depend on how practicing this country is ) Pakistan was primarily formed for Muslims to live their lives according their belief ... now in a country with 98% Muslims do u think jinnah would have catered to the wishes of 2℅( separation of state and religion) which by all means is undemocratic in nature. By saying sovereignty belongs to Allah we actually make sure the minorities get their due rights as we have to be answerable to Allah for any injustice towards minorities. Without it there are no morals for people to stand on.. unless of course the people at large don't practice their religion.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Western secularism is all about separation of state from religion. And later you say Pakistan was not about Western secularism but it's own version of secularism.. seems youare confused on this one. So far you have given me only indirect references of Jinnah wanting a 'secular' Pakistan. Do you have a direct quote ?why was Jinnah shy to utter the 'S' word ? He was not..he knew people will confuse it with Western secularism. there are indirect quotes of Jinnah asking for theocracy as well so let's not go there. If u can bring quotes of people who though t jinnah was 'secular' there are much more people who voted and can be quoted in favor of objective resolution. The bottom. Line is jinnah wanted Islamic socialism for Pakistan.. a democratic state which practices Islamic principles decided by its citizens(which means affairs of the state depend on how practicing this country is ) Pakistan was primarily formed for Muslims to live their lives according their belief ... now in a country with 98% Muslims do u think jinnah would have catered to the wishes of 2℅( separation of state and religion) which by all means is undemocratic in nature. By saying sovereignty belongs to Allah we actually make sure the minorities get their due rights as we have to be answerable to Allah for any injustice towards minorities. Without it there are no morals for people to stand on.. unless of course the people at large don't practice their religion in true essence.

Please read previous posts. All of this has already been explained.

And what "indirect" quotes of Jinnah asking for theocracy are you referring to ? There are "direct" quotes of Jinnah denouncing theocracy.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Please read previous posts. All of this has already been explained.

And what "indirect" quotes of Jinnah asking for theocracy are you referring to ? There are "direct" quotes of Jinnah denouncing theocracy.

. The problem is you think denouncing theocracy means he asked for secularism. Pakistan was born as a democratic state not a theocracy(a country being run by clergy). The representatives of people decide how Islamic country has to be .not you me or some molanaa

Please read previous posts. All of this has already been explained.

And what "indirect" quotes of Jinnah asking for theocracy are you referring to ? There are "direct" quotes of Jinnah denouncing theocracy.

I was referring to a quote u mentioned by one of the Hindu reps of assembly regarding jinnah being secular. There are documents that say jinnah in his last days established an office to reshape lives of Muslims according to principles of Islam.i will post it once I get hold of them.

 

[Zarvan]

Jinah never wanted a secular Pakistan those saying this are being dishonest with themselves and Jinnah

All Jinah speeches from 1940 till his last speech clearly indicates he wanted a Pakistan ruled according to Quran and Sunnah but as Muslim what matters is what ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW wants and what is told in Quran and Sunnah if sayings of Jinah or Iqbal or anyone else are according to that they will be accepted and if not than would be rejected.
@Azlan Haider @Peaceful Civilian

 

[M. Sarmad]

. The problem is you think denouncing theocracy means he asked for secularism. Pakistan was born as a democratic state not a theocracy(a country being run by clergy). The representatives of people decide how Islamic country has to be .not you me or some molanaa

Well, The same Maulana who was against Jinnah and his Pakistan Movement was the "inspiration" behind The Objectives Resolution.




Maulana Maududi had said (before creation of Pakistan)

it was not clear either from any resolution of the Muslim League or from the speeches of any responsible League leaders, that the ultimate aim of Pakistan is the establishment of an Islamic government..... [Maududi, Muslims and Present Struggle, part three, p 131]


Not a single leader of the Muslim League, from Quad-i-Azam, downwards, has Islamic mentality and Islamic thinking or they see the things from Islamic point of view. [Ibid p 37]


To declare such people legible for Muslim leadership, because they are expert in western politics or western organization system and have concern for the nation, is definitely ignorance from Islam and amounts to an un-Islamic mentality. [Ibid p 70]




But once Pakistan was created, Maududi (In February 1948, while addressing the Law College, Lahore) demanded that :

The sovereignty of the state of Pakistan vests in God Almighty and that the government of Pakistan shall be only an agent to execute the Sovereign's Will.

And all existing or future legislation which may contravene, whether in letter or in spirit, the Islamic Shariah shall be null and void and be considered ultra vires of the constitution;


Now read the Objectives Resolution and you will understand that what Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya meant when he said: "What I hear in this (Objectives) Resolution is not the voice of the great creator of Pakistan - the Quaid-i-Azam, nor even that of the Prime Minister of Pakistan the Honorable Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, but of the Ulema of the land."


... The Mullahs had successfully hijacked Pakistan shortly after its creation.




After independence "some of the Ulema decided to stay in India, others hastened to Pakistan to lend a helping hand. If they had not been able to save the Muslims from Pakistan they must now save Pakistan from the Muslims. Among them was Maulana Abul Aala Maududi, head of the Jamat-i-Islami, who had been bitterly opposed to Pakistan." Mohammad Ayub Khan, Friends not Masters, P-202

what is told in Quran and Sunnah if sayings of Jinah or Iqbal or anyone else are according to that they will be accepted and if not than would be rejected.
@Azlan Haider @Peaceful Civilian

Posting tons of crap/images will not prove you right.



And who will decide (that whether or not) what Jinnah and Iqbal said/believed in was in accordance with Quran and Sunnah ??

Mullah Zarvan and the Wahhabi Brigade ?

 

[Zarvan]

Well, The same Maulana who was against Jinnah and his Pakistan Movement was the "inspiration" behind The Objectives Resolution.




Maulana Maududi had said (before creation of Pakistan)

it was not clear either from any resolution of the Muslim League or from the speeches of any responsible League leaders, that the ultimate aim of Pakistan is the establishment of an Islamic government..... [Maududi, Muslims and Present Struggle, part three, p 131]


Not a single leader of the Muslim League, from Quad-i-Azam, downwards, has Islamic mentality and Islamic thinking or they see the things from Islamic point of view. [Ibid p 37]


To declare such people legible for Muslim leadership, because they are expert in western politics or western organization system and have concern for the nation, is definitely ignorance from Islam and amounts to an un-Islamic mentality. [Ibid p 70]




But once Pakistan was created, Maududi (In February 1948, while addressing the Law College, Lahore) demanded that :

The sovereignty of the state of Pakistan vests in God Almighty and that the government of Pakistan shall be only an agent to execute the Sovereign's Will.

And all existing or future legislation which may contravene, whether in letter or in spirit, the Islamic Shariah shall be null and void and be considered ultra vires of the constitution;


Now read the Objectives Resolution and you will understand that what Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya meant when he said: "What I hear in this (Objectives) Resolution is not the voice of the great creator of Pakistan - the Quaid-i-Azam, nor even that of the Prime Minister of Pakistan the Honorable Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, but of the Ulema of the land."


... The Mullahs had successfully hijacked Pakistan shortly after its creation.




After independence "some of the Ulema decided to stay in India, others hastened to Pakistan to lend a helping hand. If they had not been able to save the Muslims from Pakistan they must now save Pakistan from the Muslims. Among them was Maulana Abul Aala Maududi, head of the Jamat-i-Islami, who had been bitterly opposed to Pakistan." Mohammad Ayub Khan, Friends not Masters, P-202



Posting tons of crap/images will not prove you right.



And who will decide (that whether or not) what Jinnah and Iqbal said/believed in was in accordance with Quran and Sunnah ??

Mullah Zarvan and the Wahhabi Brigade ?

These are not crappy images this is what Jinah said and all his speeches point out he wanted a Pakistan based on Qur'an and Sunnah but intellectually dishonest liberals and few other folks have habit of lying about Jinah. Quran and Sunnah are mostly very clear and quite easily it can be known weather what someone said is in accordance with Quran and Sunnah or not. Your wrong facts are exposed by the fact that if several Ulema opposed Jinah than their were several scholars who supported him also but some people don't have courage to tell that

 

[M. Sarmad]

These are not crappy images this is what Jinah said and all his speeches point out he wanted a Pakistan based on Qur'an and Sunnah but intellectually dishonest liberals and few other folks have habit of lying about Jinah. Quran and Sunnah are mostly very clear and quite easily it can be known weather what someone said is in accordance with Quran and Sunnah or not. Your wrong facts are exposed by the fact that if several Ulema opposed Jinah than their were several scholars who supported him also but some people don't have courage to tell that

Mullahs, not liberals, are known liars and hypocrites ...

A lot has been posted on this thread. Your rants prove nothing.

 

[Zarvan]

Mullahs, not liberals, are known liars and hypocrites ...

A lot has been posted on this thread. Your rants prove nothing.

Liberals for past 70 years are lying over and over again not Mullahs. Entire liberalism is based on lies and stupid delusions. My rant no not rant but facts that Jinah never ever wanted a secular Pakistan but on contrary wanted a Pakistan where laws are according to Quran and Sunnah. He kept saying this over and over again but as Quran says some people are to deaf and dumb and blind to see Haq.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Liberals for past 70 years are lying over and over again not Mullahs. Entire liberalism is based on lies and stupid delusions. My rant no not rant but facts that Jinah never ever wanted a secular Pakistan but on contrary wanted a Pakistan where laws are according to Quran and Sunnah. He kept saying this over and over again but as Quran says some people are to deaf and dumb and blind to see Haq.

Just listen to his last speech. Clearly indicates what he wants for the nation. The problem isn't Islam in fact the problem is that Islam hasn't even arrived. Yet people have the audacity to blame Islam for Pakistans problems.

Many have said this from Dr. Israr Ahmed to Gen. Hamid Gul. Living in a delusional and copying westerners isn't going to do any good for a people that hold the Quran and sunnah dear to them. Even if they jump into lava the seculars in Pakistan will do the same.

 

[dadeechi]

Questions:

1) Did Muslim league support khilafat movement like Congress?

2) Can Islam and secularism compatible/coexist or are they mutually exclusive?

 

[Finer]

During 1919 and till early 1920s, after the end of the Great War, when Indians were fighting for Independence, Congress' Muslim leadership including Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued fatwas asking Muslims of India to make the Hijrat and fight in the name of the Khilafat in Turkeye to re-establish Dar-ul-Islam and restore the Khilafat!

30,000 Indians (or 'Pakistanis') went to fight in Turkey in those days of no internet, no TV etc.

Ironically, Arab unions in those times were busy betraying Ottoman Empire which they were eventually succeeded. In result, Arab unions stretched into nations paid the heavy price as there was no more powerful Muslim empire; Ottoman Empire.

It is not ironic why ME has been plagued with disasters. It is punishment for betraying God's kingdom or whatever the Muslim title of Empire.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Just listen to his last speech. Clearly indicates what he wants for the nation. The problem isn't Islam in fact the problem is that Islam hasn't even arrived. Yet people have the audacity to blame Islam for Pakistans problems.

.

Islam has in fact "arrived" in Syria. You can go and live under ISIS Khilafat if you want more Islam ...

Now if you are going to say that the IS is not true Muslim and their actions are unIslamic etc. etc.

Then we will ask you to tell us that what, according to you, is a "true Islamic System" ? .. Has it been implemented anywhere in the world in the last few hundred years or so ? Any examples ? And you won't be able to find a single one

Then you will try to mention Khilafat e Rashida as an example of True Islamic System without realizing that a system which worked successfully only for 15-20 years in the Arabian Peninsula some 1400 years ago, even if replicated (somehow) in the 21st century Pakistan, is bound to fail.

You guys really are delusional

Many have said this from Dr. Israr Ahmed to Gen. Hamid Gul. Living in a delusional and copying westerners isn't going to do any good for a people that hold the Quran and sunnah dear to them. Even if they jump into lava the seculars in Pakistan will do the same..

And you yourself live in Canada !!

Don't you hold Quran and Sunnah dear to you ? You want more Islam for Pakistan, You abhor secularism, You abuse Pakistani secularists, but you yourself choose to live in a secular country ..... Height of Hypocrisy...

You are no better than those Mullahs who want Jihad and martyrdom for the kids of other people while their own children study in Top universities of The West, the same west which they proclaim is the biggest Enemy of Islam .... Indeed such Mullahs and their followers are the biggest hypocrites on the face of the Earth..

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Islam has in fact "arrived" in Syria. You can go and live under ISIS Khilafat if you want more Islam ...

Now if you are going to say that the IS is not true Muslim and their actions are unIslamic etc. etc.

Then we will ask you to tell us that what, according to you, is a "true Islamic System" ? .. Has it been implemented anywhere in the world in the last few hundred years or so ? Any examples ? And you won't be able to find a single one

Then you will try to mention Khilafat e Rashida as an example of True Islamic System without realizing that a system which worked successfully only for 15-20 years in the Arabian Peninsula some 1400 years ago, even if replicated (somehow) in the 21st century Pakistan, is bound to fail.

You guys really are delusional






And you yourself live in Canada !!

Don't you hold Quran and Sunnah dear to you ? You want more Islam for Pakistan, You abhor secularism, You abuse Pakistani secularists, but you yourself choose to live in a secular country ..... Height of Hypocrisy...

You are no better than those Mullahs who want Jihad and martyrdom for the kids of other people while their own children study in Top universities of The West, the same west which they proclaim is the biggest Enemy of Islam .... Indeed such Mullahs and their followers are the biggest hypocrites on the face of the Earth..

The Khilafah cannot be established in a world such as today. It is nearly impossible. The ottomans brought it out of Arabia and brought it in their empire. And note this secularists destroyed the Khilafah because it was a threat to them. But one thing Pakistan should have is getting rid of riba, bringing people to justice, recognizing Allah as sovereign. Implement proper Islamic laws that all universally agree on. Has Pakistan done ANY of this? And why does everything in Pakistan need a model? Create something on your own strive towards your own system BE A MODEL. BE A LEADER. Stop being influenced bu others and create something of your own need. Pakistan had and still has and will continue to have more than enough brains and determination to make something on it's own that could be a good role model to the rest of the Muslim world.

And don't you worry where I live. I'm coming back. I came here with my parents. The problem is the mullahs too. Jihad isn't the only thing that is important. In fact the main jihad is ones self struggle to make himself better. Which obviously is lacking in Pakistan. They don't know how to teach proper Quranic values. Zias "islamisation" was a hijacking and a curse. And now people associate it with true Islamic values. They too have their priorities backward.

You've been influenced too much by media and cannot see what is so clear. If you cannot progress with religion then it's not the religions fault. It's the people's. People were progressing with religion in the past. If we cannot do it then SHAME on us.

Urge you to read the Quaid's final speech and then come talk.

http://www.bashaoorpakistan.com/magazine/reports/quaid-e-azam-ma-jinnah-speech-amazing-shocking/