Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials

[abdulbarijan]

Only reason that Pakistan is involved in the marketing is because the PLAAF itself has zero interest in induction of jf-17.Yes IAF was involved as large number of systems were tailored to IAF specifications.



JF-17 was designed mainly by Soviet engineers(many Soviet engineers who lost their jobs after USSR collapse were contracted by China in various fields including aerospace).So several soviet designs were involved.
+the chinese involvement in lavi program with Israel also helped.

Do you even hear or rather see what you wrote ??

Your saying that having some input and customizing a product to your needs makes you "involved" in a project the same way as being a 'partner' in a joint venture does ...

In the case of JF-17 ... there is a reason its called "PAC/CAC JF-17" as these two are the organizations that did the project .. and I suppose your entire case rests on the Indian argument of "indigenous content" ... well there are alot of examples of businesses that outsource content .... nothing wrong with that ... In Pakistan's case we have to realize that this was Pakistan's first crack at a fighter jet program and there was indeed Pakistani input in the project, whether it be the experience based off the -16's, the software, weapons for integration, subsystems etc...

But if your entire point of comparison, is indigenous content and indigenous content ONLY ... well then ... the recent report by CAG rates your LCA Tejas's indigenous content at 35% after nearly 3 decades of struggle with the project ... and the input by IAI, Rafael, Martin Baker, Lockheed Martin, Generel Electric,Ericsson and Russian firms is well documented ...Therefore, if you think tailoring a product to your needs and a being a partner in a JV are comparable based on indigenous content then ..

You guys should seriously consider renaming your fighter jet from "HAL Tejas" to "Dassault/LM/GE/IAI/Rafael/Ericsson/Hal Tejas"

Just a post ago, you were arguing that JF-17 was based on IAI Lavi (an Israeli cancelled project) .. now your saying it was designed by soviet engineers ... So do you believe on some conspiracy that Lavi project (whose design was based on the F-16 by the way) was somehow designed by the Russians, cancelled by the Israelis ... and then given to Pakistan through China ... Mystery Solved!

As far as your argument about marketing is concerned ... It has two major problems .. i.e

-The presumption that PLAAF won't be inducting the FC-1

-The presumption that If an organization is not inducting a product for its own needs/wants, It won't market it to other organizations ... especially when $$ are at stake ... By the way I said PAF is involved in "Most" of the activities regarding marketing, that doesn't mean that China doesn't do any ...

There are countless armchair experts. Each one is entitled to their opinion
The specs look similar to a souped up MiG-21.

Last I checked ... the only official statement calling a fighter jet a "souped up Mig-21" was made by IAF's former airchief P.V Naik ... and it wasn't in regards to JF-17 ...

Naik went on to describe the Tejas as a "MiG-21++" fighter, and went on to say, "At present it is not a fourth generation aircraft. It will come up, but at present it is not."

LIVEFIST: IAF Grudgingly Accepts Tejas IOC, Wants 83 Mk-IIs

 

[Harisudan]

Hi,
No---they know we can do it and they can see us doing it---but they cannot bear seeing what we can do----. That is why I stated that they are having cows----.
Otherwise----why would an enemy who is 3 to 5 times larger than us----be coming after us with a vengeance----. We must have some resource that they are concerned about---that they keep coming over here to put us down----oh well. Haters gonna hate---.

Seriously.? I agree at your first part, Yes your workforce have abilities to do things which are necessary for your country's protection, but the second part is Utter rubbish..
Coming over here .? Did u mean coming to PDF and discussing or coming to Pakistan.? By the way, any country which shares long borders will be closely watching its adversary on their developments , it is nothing new.. . Now what will you do if you were an Indian, when you have an adversary like pakistan with a track record of half of its time Ruled by Military generals and with a Nuclear Missile launch capability sharing close to a 5000 Mile long land border, which was in war with you for more than three times..
It is not the resources that we are scared of, it is the Hatred towards India and Hindus in the mindsets of a common pakistani, that we are concerned about.. If you may remember, Pakistan was created and named as Islamic republic of Pakistan under the sole concept that Hindus and Muslims can't co exist in a same country.. If mentioning Cows is a sarcastic way of insulting our religion, then I'm not going to respond to it because it will only flame trolling..

 

[MastanKhan]

Seriously.? I agree at your first part, Yes your workforce have abilities to do things which are necessary for your country's protection, but the second part is Utter rubbish..
Coming over here .? Did u mean coming to PDF and discussing or coming to Pakistan.? By the way, any country which shares long borders will be closely watching its adversary on their developments , it is nothing new.. . Now what will you do if you were an Indian, when you have an adversary like pakistan with a track record of half of its time Ruled by Military generals and with a Nuclear Missile launch capability sharing close to a 5000 Mile long land border, which was in war with you for more than three times..
It is not the resources that we are scared of, it is the Hatred towards India and Hindus in the mindsets of a common pakistani, that we are concerned about.. If you may remember, Pakistan was created and named as Islamic republic of Pakistan under the sole concept that Hindus and Muslims can't co exist in a same country.. If mentioning Cows is a sarcastic way of insulting our religion, then I'm not going to respond to it because it will only flame trolling..

Hi,

" Having a cow " is an american expression----here is the meaning---it is all american----enjoy

have a cow
To completely and utterly flip the fu-ck out.
Mary really had a cow when she came home from work early caught me sticking it to her twin sister indabutt over the kitchen counter. Typical woman, always overreacting.
(have a cow)

@Irfan Baloch does that explain the term right----?

Some other definitions

have a cow
A frequent utterance of Bart Simpson, "Don't have a cow" dismisses the other person's feelings as overreactive to the situation. The person who expresses anger, shock, disgust, or any of several other negative feelings towards an action or person is seen as having a cow. The person who induces bovine delivery, either through doing it or telling of the activity, often tries to minimize the activity as something not so bad. Saying don't have a cow minimizes both the activity itself *and* the person's feelings who is having the cow.
Jimmy Joe had a cow when he learned that his best friend, John Jay, had bought a term paper online and passed it off as his own writing.

Billy Ray laughed at Jimmy Joe's shock that he could do such a thing. He sneered, "Don't have a cow, man! Professors never read those papers anyway."


have a cow
As in when a person will be extremely upset, angry, or suprised about something
Bob: Hey, did you hear about how Fred's house got bulldozed over while he was on vacation?

Joe: Yeah, he's going to have a cow when he finds out!


have a cow
The "country folk" version of "have a cow":

Your dad owns a dairy farm, so when Mom and Pop go out for dinner, you go out into the barn with a can of aerosol whip cream and spray it on your naked boner so one of the calves will suck you off.
CLYDE: Hey, Enos, are you going to the prom?

ENOS: No, all the chicks I asked turned me down. I think I'll just kill myself!

CLYDE: Come on man, it's not THAT bad -- have a cow!

@Tipu7

 

[Harisudan]

Hi,

" Having a cow " is an american expression----here is the meaning---it is all american----enjoy

have a cow
To completely and utterly flip the fu-ck out.
Mary really had a cow when she came home from work early caught me sticking it to her twin sister indabutt over the kitchen counter. Typical woman, always overreacting.
(have a cow)

@Irfan Baloch does that explain the term right----?

I couldn't really comprehend the meaning of that phrase, may be because I'm not an American born Indian.. Anyways, my point is that I disagree with your comment, especially the second part of your comment..

 

[MastanKhan]

I couldn't really comprehend the meaning of that phrase, may be because I'm not an American born Indian.. Anyways, my point is that I disagree with your comment, especially the second part of your comment..

Hi,

That is fine---but read my post again and enjoy couple of more jokes---

 

[salarsikander]

Dear tell me how many $ has PAF earned by selling JF-17.We are hearing contracts signed and talks on going since 2010.But so far not a single tom has purchased it.

Just


Just read Former Soviet Union in transition by Richard Kauffman and Sino Russian military technical cooperation A Russian view it details how deeply Russians are involved in design phases of Chinese military programs.

Hi,

Can you get the share of profit from selling mki or not ? Even if we sell it after 100 years we will get it !

Show me specifically where itvsays that Russian assistance was used for 17 and plz learn to differentiate BTW lavi and mig21

 

[Tipu7]

Hi,

That is fine---but read my post again and enjoy couple of more jokes---

Sir Cow thing is too dangerous in India now a days........ I guess cow jokes can be offensive if they managed to understand ......

I couldn't really comprehend the meaning of that phrase, may be because I'm not an American born Indian.. Anyways, my point is that I disagree with your comment, especially the second part of your comment..

Sir @MastanKhan is trapping you, don't you dare listen to him..... he will kill you sweetly and slowly .......
Here take my advice instead

 

[Harisudan]

View attachment 279152

Sir Cow thing is too dangerous in India now a days........ I guess cow jokes can be offensive if they managed to understand ......


Sir @MastanKhan is trapping you, don't you dare listen to him..... he will kill you sweetly and slowly .......
Here take my advice instead

View attachment 279154

Nice try dudes.. Have fun..

 

[MastanKhan]

Hari,

These americans are crazy----I just wanted to let you know----they got a joke for all nationalities---without prejudice----.

So---when are you coming to the U S!

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

To develop jet engines we require a whole range of expertise and knowledge which we can't get in current scenario. We should instead of opening new ordinary Unis should build new Technical Institutions/Unis with foreign faculty may be from China and Russia. Similarly research work should be done on new technologies like stealth, aerodynamics, fuels etc. It may take a decade to Pak after well planning and implication that they can develop their own engines from Jets to Naval Ships.
We should work in area of applied sciences and technology to produce capable engineers and technicians to realise such dreams. The present situation is that most of our graduates from GIK and Nust prefer to go abroad. Their is brain drain problem in the country. Further if we can't develop such huge infrastructure and want to waste our limited resources on Metro weshould at least offer limited scholar ships for bright students of technical institutes to get further studies and practical knowledge in China nad Russia. Similarly students having science and engineering background intellectuals who already have practical knowledge and strong academic background should be officially included in joint research projects of the areas of interest with Chinese counterparts.

Bhai jan, we developed nuclear bombs and missile technology! your points are valid. We can start today and we can achieve 100% self sufficiency in 5-6 years. Our engineers and scientists are mashaAllah capable. If we can handle a project of nuclear bomb, we can also manufacture jet engines and other complex technologies!

 

[abdulbarijan]

Producing a fighter jet in quantities over 180 indicates full involvement in the project.
Also 35% indigenous content Tejss is higher than less than 5% indigenous content in JF17



No body will buy it after 100 years.It will be a flop like Saab darken

Metallurgy that is used on lavi is same used on jf-17.
BTW both the books directly mention that soviet engineers were involved in all of China's missile and aerospace projects in 90s

"full involvement" ...

Okay .. so when SU-30 was in its inception... did India take any part in its development, R&D, finance,marketing project management etc. for the "SU-30 Project" ... the answer, I believe is No .. The Su-30K was offered to the IAF, which it took, tailored to its needs and then took the TOT and is producing at home ... that does not mean it is any linked to the "SU-30 Project" ...

As far as comparison of Tejas and JFT goes, first off, do give us a source of the 5% claim you just pulled out of your rear end, ... secondly ... If Tejas is "Made in India" with only 35% indigenous content ... why can't JFT be a JV with "5% Pakistani content" as you put it ...

 

[Penguin]

There was hardly any major component in the plane designed by Pakistan.The plane is just a modified lavi just like mki is a modified Su-30

There are two claims here. I'ld like to see both sides of the argument documented for each claim.

 

[wiseone2]

Now this is my subject....

Pls elaborate to back up your claim.....?

How Lavi & Jf17 share same metallurgy....?

And what is it's significance?


Discuss and Compare Tejas when it will become operational in IAF..... untill then all such is paper stuff....... since Tejas failed to compete with Thunder, so these Indians don't have any other valid justification. So they simply target Thunder program and prove that it is just a 3rd Generation Mig21 with Chinese Junk inside, you are not making one bit buying one from China as it is cheap and you don't have money to but expensive stuff......

This thread was about RD93, and look in which direction it turned when a lowly Indian stepped in .......nn

the biggest red flags about JF-17
the PAF is replacing J-7, Mirage III and Mirage V with JF-17. the PLAAF is not replacing its J-7s with JF-17

use of RD-93 jet engine in JF-17. It raises doubts about China's ability to construct reliable jet engines.

 

[abdulbarijan]

the biggest red flags about JF-17
the PAF is replacing J-7, Mirage III and Mirage V with JF-17. the PLAAF is not replacing its J-7s with JF-17

use of RD-93 jet engine in JF-17. It raises doubts about China's ability to construct reliable jet engines.

Your argument is based on the presumption that it is already decided that "PLAAF won't be inducting FC-1's..."

You can be kind enough to share us with the source that explicitly states that ... because as it stands today ... China has an entirely different prototype i.e PT-06 with Chinese systems and a Chinese WS-13 at the CAC ... and it is being regularly flown and tested with newer weapons, gadgets and what not ... However, if it is not enough ... then do look at the new weapon platforms being planned/tested for the PLAAF ... from the low tier strike fighters JH-7B's to the mid tier J-10B/J-11D, J-15/16 all the way to the 5th generation J-20 &J-31 --- even the low tier fighters are supposed to be equip with AESA radar, avionics upgrades, latest weapons and have their RCS reduced .. So the piece of the puzzle that will fit the bill is the evolution to block III ... PLAAF will have to replace a huge number of outdated jets ... and only when a full fledged replacement program goes in to swing ... will we know what China plans to do ...

In fact do you know that the Russian's didn't induct any version of the SU-30 before 2012 which is around 23 years after its first flight ... As far as the engine is concerned ... PAF needs numbers to replace its aging fleet and reliability issues of the Chinese engines are there but will be solved over time ... At this point, we cannot afford to delay the program ... therefore RD-93 is our choice ...

Either way ... you will be looking at a predominantly 4/4+ generation airforce at one side of the border and a Huge airforce composed of of 4th generation and 5th generation aircrafts at the other in the next 5-10 years....

 

[Death In Fire]

Now this is my subject....

Pls elaborate to back up your claim.....?

How Lavi & Jf17 share same metallurgy....?

And what is it's significance?


Discuss and Compare Tejas when it will become operational in IAF..... untill then all such is paper stuff....... since Tejas failed to compete with Thunder, so these Indians don't have any other valid justification. So they simply target Thunder program and prove that it is just a 3rd Generation Mig21 with Chinese Junk inside, you are not making one bit buying one from China as it is cheap and you don't have money to but expensive stuff......

This thread was about RD93, and look in which direction it turned when a lowly Indian stepped in .......nn

Chinese didn't know the manufacturing of relatively lightweight airframe till they got help from Russians in 1994-96