Pakistan to participate in SAARC satellite project meeting: ISRO

[Viking 63]

ok every one chill ! lets go to India and see what this project is all about....

 

[That Guy]

If it's a science and technology project meant for development of humanity, India will be thrilled. If Pakistan takes a lead on such a initiative, maybe that will open up bilateral understanding between the countries.

India has to show that it will treat Pakistan fairly, simple as that. It's up to India to take the initiative to assure Pakistan of full cooperation, as it is India's project.

 

[tsinga]

That's up to the leadership to decide. I'm sure there is communication between India and Pakistan about this. India would no doubt love to have Pakistan on board, as it would increase their geopolitical standing, so India may very well give certain assurances to Pakistan.

What you are talking about is the last Government of India's policy - that of taking Pakistan along to increase international standing.

The current GoI has decided on "everything minus Pakistan" formula in foreign policy as is evident in each of our regional relationship policies. We are no longer waiting for Pakistan to agree to our policy proposals in an effort to forge consensus, wherever Pakistan is disagreeing we are forming regional groupings and moving ahead. The Government is being antagonistic towards Pakistan deliberately.

It is not a coincidence that GoI has gone the extra-mile for each of our neighbours - Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, China and improved relations with each of them to historic highs while taking a step back and hardening positions with Pakistan.

 

[MarkovChain]

India has to show that it will treat Pakistan fairly, simple as that. It's up to India to take the initiative to assure Pakistan of full cooperation, as it is India's project.

India is the sponsor for this project, and one sponsor is important for the project to get a clear direction. Maybe Pakistan can sponsor something which India can be a part of? We cannot allow geopolitics get in the way of science. South Asia needs more scientists and less religious/political eggheads and projects like these help that cause.

 

[That Guy]

What you are talking about is the last Government of India's policy - that of taking Pakistan along to increase international standing.

The current GoI has decided on "everything minus Pakistan" formula in foreign policy as is evident in each of our regional relationship policies. We are no longer waiting for Pakistan to agree to our policy proposals in an effort to forge consensus, wherever Pakistan is disagreeing we are forming regional groupings and moving ahead. The Government is being antagonistic towards Pakistan deliberately.

At least you admit that India is deliberately being aggressive towards Pakistan for no good reason.

Anyway, that still doesn't mean that India wouldn't like to have Pakistan on board.

India is the sponsor for this project, and one sponsor is important for the project to get a clear direction. Maybe Pakistan can sponsor something which India can be a part of? We cannot allow geopolitics get in the way of science. South Asia needs more scientists and less religious/political eggheads and projects like these help that cause.

Again, it's up to India to assure Pakistan, not the other way around. Unfortunately, geopolitics defines everything between nations.

 

[tsinga]

At least you admit that India is deliberately being aggressive towards Pakistan for no good reason.

Anyway, that still doesn't mean that India wouldn't like to have Pakistan on board.

I would appreciate that you don't put words in my mouth.

I did not say that India is being aggressive towards Pakistan "for no good reason"

The majority of Indians felt that the last GoI's response and behaviour to Pakistan was incorrect and far too weak. Therefore as is a democracy, the new Government is more sensitive to people's wishes. The provocations from Pakistan have been galore and not playing cricket with Pakistan in retaliation for Mumbai massacre just does not cut ice with us. There has to be a harder response even if that means loss of lives of Indians. Pakistan must be made to pay a price for terrorism using any means necessary. The last GoI was not upto this, the new GoI is.


I edited and added a paragraph in my last post:

It is not a coincidence that GoI has gone the extra-mile for each of our neighbours - Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, China and improved relations with each of them to historic highs while taking a step back and hardening positions with Pakistan.

 

[That Guy]

I would appreciate that you don't put words in my mouth.

I did not say that India is being aggressive towards Pakistan "for no good reason"

The Government is being antagonistic towards Pakistan deliberately.

Your words, not mine. You may not think "for no good reason", but let's be honest, it's the truth.

The majority of Indians felt that the last GoI's response and behaviour to Pakistan was incorrect and far too weak. Therefore as is a democracy, the new Government is more sensitive to people's wishes. The provocations from Pakistan have been galore and not playing cricket with Pakistan in retaliation for Mumbai massacre just does not cut ice with us. There has to be a harder response even if that means loss of lives of Indians. Pakistan must be made to pay a price for terrorism using any means necessary. The last GoI was not upto this, the new GoI is.

And this is exactly the attitude Pakistan and India will never see peace. This mind set is old, and needs to change. I will not argue about the validity of your bold claims, because there is no point, all I'll say is that you need to relax.

I edited and added a paragraph in my last post:

It is not a coincidence that GoI has gone the extra-mile for each of our neighbours - Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, China and improved relations with each of them to historic highs while taking a step back and hardening positions with Pakistan.

GoI hasn't done much, it's all talk and little substance. You also seem to think that Pakistan is somehow isolated, when it's relations have actually grown as well. It's a misconception that India is somehow isolating Pakistan, when Pakistan's role in the international scene is actually on the up.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

The solution to point 2 is simple, as I mentioned.
Pakistan can simply choose not to use the SAARC satellite. Therefore cutting off access is a point that does not arise.

I personally am in favour of Pakistan not joining the project. The Prime Minister in his bluster announced the SAARC satellite project, whereas he should have announced a BIMSTEC/BBIN satellite project. Either ways, whats done is done.

Exactly!

This Satellite is in many ways analogous to a private FM station - broadcasting to all in the vicinity who are tuned into it's frequency. If you don't like the content for some reason, it is only a matter of changing the channel without any obligations.

Another example is GPS satellites. The only way it can affect you is if the information that you get from it is inaccurate!

Unless it is a communication satellite where it is possible to monitor to all the satellite-bound calls, the opposition to this Satellite is ridiculous!

 

[tsinga]

Your words, not mine. You may not think "for no good reason", but let's be honest, it's the truth.

I am being honest and it is the truth.
The phrase "for no good reason" does not apply. I said 'deliberately', not "for no good reason". A world of difference between the two.

And this is exactly the attitude Pakistan and India will never see peace. This mind set is old, and needs to change. I will not argue about the validity of your bold claims, because there is no point, all I'll say is that you need to relax.

I am relaxed my friend, I passed my worries and concerns to the GoI when I went out of my way to vote for them and voted out the likes of Manmohan Singh and Mani Shankar Aiyar who believed in peace-at-all-costs.

The issue is not of mindsets but setting precedents. Allowing Pakistan to walk away without repercussions for sending its citizens to Mumbai would breed further cavalier attitude in Pakistani Army about conducting terrorism inside India.
As it is Pakistani Army suffers no oversight and repercussions over any of its actions by the Civilian Authorities who are supposed to play this role. This has bred a culture of adventurism without consequences in Pakistan.

Damaging Pakistan in retaliation ensures that the Pakistan military understands there would be consequences for its actions and it would not get to walk away.

GoI hasn't done much, it's all talk and little substance. You also seem to think that Pakistan is somehow isolated, when it's relations have actually grown as well. It's a misconception that India is somehow isolating Pakistan, when Pakistan's role in the international scene is actually on the up.

Have you not been reading news at all ?
GoI has improved our relations with all our neighbours to historic highs bar one.

Absolutely historic initiatives have been taken and disputes lingering since 1947 have been resolved with India ceding territory both land and a massive amount in sea to Bangladesh. Trade deals signed between neighbours that would ultimately lead to open borders and an EU like integration in South Asia!

States on the periphery of South Asia are being drawn in with similar deals already in the final stages of negotiations with Myanmar and Thailand for an economically consolidated region of East India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Myanmar and Thailand!

And do you know something - these are all deals that every state wanted signed and Pakistan unilaterally blocked at the SAARC summit . That the rest of us agreed to move on them by forming separate multilateral groups shows that India was successful in moving ahead in the SAARC minus Pakistan efforts.

Pakistan may be succeeding in reviving relations with Afghanistan, but in South Asia they are being left behind in our march.

 

[That Guy]

I am being honest and it is the truth.
The phrase "for no good reason" does not apply. I said 'deliberately', not "for no good reason". A world of difference between the two.

A difference, yes, but try reading my comment before replying.

I am relaxed my friend, I passed my worries and concerns to the GoI when I went out of my way to vote for them and voted out the likes of Manmohan Singh and Mani Shankar Aiyar who believed in peace-at-all-costs.

You're far from relaxed, in fact, you're quite defensive about this.

The issue is not of mindsets but setting precedents. Allowing Pakistan to walk away without repercussions for sending its citizens to Mumbai would breed further cavalier attitude in Pakistani Army about conducting terrorism inside India.
As it is Pakistani Army suffers no oversight and repercussions over any of its actions by the Civilian Authorities who are supposed to play this role. This has bred a culture of adventurism without consequences in Pakistan.

It is entirely of mindset. You believe that Pakistan deliberately set terrorists to Mumbai to cause civilian deaths, when there is literally 0 evidence of it. I've said the same thing about the Peshawar attack, there is no evidence to suggest any nation (in particular India) was involved in it. There is 0 strategic gains from such a blatant attack, and to this very day India has presented 0 evidence that Pakistan was directly (or indirectly) involved.

Do you want to know WHY your previous leadership didn't attack Pakistan after Mumbai? Not only was there zero evidence, they knew the consequences of such an action, something your current leadership may end up learning.

Damaging Pakistan in retaliation ensures that the Pakistan military understands there would be consequences for its actions and it would not get to walk away.

Retaliation? No, this is aggression. Pakistan needs a peaceful border on it's east, so that it can concentrate on it's western border. Pakistan understands consequences, it's India that does not.

Have you not been reading news at all ?
GoI has improved our relations with all our neighbours to historic highs bar one.

I have, and it's mostly for show. There is still very little substance.

Absolutely historic initiatives have been taken and disputes lingering since 1947 have been resolved with India ceding territory both land and a massive amount in sea to Bangladesh. Trade deals signed between neighbours that would ultimately lead to open borders and an EU like integration in South Asia!

Most of the disputes were under negotiations long before Modi came to power, he's just taking credit for it, as would any other politician, if they won.

Trade talks have also been on going for much longer than Modi, and would have happened regardless of Modi coming to power or not. It's also not a major game changer, not as much as you think. SA has economically been integrated closer, but politically, not much as really changed in reality.

States on the periphery of South Asia are being drawn in with similar deals already in the final stages of negotiations with Myanmar and Thailand for an economically consolidated region of East India, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Myanmar and Thailand!

You seem to have this idea that India is the only one growing it's influence.

And do you know something - these are all deals that every state wanted signed and Pakistan unilaterally blocked at the SAARC summit . That the rest of us agreed to move on them by forming separate multilateral groups shows that India was successful in moving ahead in the SAARC minus Pakistan efforts.

Guess what, it doesn't matter. India has so far nothing substantial to show for it's efforts. Pakistan does what is in it's interests, nothing more. The other SAARC members aren't rival's to India.

Pakistan may be succeeding in reviving relations with Afghanistan, but in South Asia they are being left behind in our march.

Afghanistan? Is that what you think Pakistan is only doing? Pakistan's army chief is in Russia, a former-cold war enemy. Pakistan's relations with the EU have grown, and is expanding it's trade relations with individual EU nations substantially. It's military relations with Sri Lanka and Myanmar (despite recent issues) are growing. It's relationship with Nepal is also set to grow, as there are intentions to increase trade... I could keep going, but there are a long of initiatives being taken to grow Pakistan's economy and geopolitical standing, and they're working.

This idea that Pakistan is being left behind is simply a myth, that's all it is, a myth. India is not the only nation in the world that is increase it's global influence. CPEC is going to increase Pakistan's geopolitical standing by a huge margin, connecting China and Central Asia to Europe and the middle east, turning Pakistan into an economic trade hub for global commerce.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I've already presented my point through a logical method, it's up to other people to decide if they believe me or you.

 

[Dr Gupta]

India already has military satellites in orbit to monitor terrorist activity, infact it launched one soon after 26/11. This is a communications satellite for disaster management etc

India Launches $200M TECSAR Spy Satellite

Why would we use a communications satellite which has no military use? when we already got one

 

[ares]

India has to show that it will treat Pakistan fairly, simple as that. It's up to India to take the initiative to assure Pakistan of full cooperation, as it is India's project.

Why?
What exactly is Pakistan bringing to the table here ?

India is launching a communications satellite, mainly from its own pockets, for its neighbours.
So they don't have to pay heavy market price for using transponders of foreign satellites.

If Pakistan does not trust India...then it can simply continue with it current arrangement.

It is like feeding a homeless man..and homeless man asking..I will only take your food..if assure me that you will feed me for rest of my life, come what may

 

[tsinga]

It is entirely of mindset. You believe that Pakistan deliberately set terrorists to Mumbai to cause civilian deaths, when there is literally 0 evidence of it. I've said the same thing about the Peshawar attack, there is no evidence to suggest any nation (in particular India) was involved in it. There is 0 strategic gains from such a blatant attack, and to this very day India has presented 0 evidence that Pakistan was directly (or indirectly) involved.

Again, slight handed attempts by Pakistanis to show others in equal light.

Pakistanis would indeed have a right to blame India for Peshawar when Indian citizens are the ones who are caught going around wielding AK-47's and their handlers sit in India directing the attacks.

Because such was the case in Mumbai. There was no 'intelligence' required to pin point Pakistan, they were there. It was Pakistanis going around the city slaughtering citizens while their handlers directed them from Karachi.

So as Pakistani citizens entered India to kill people, India as a State has to respond to Pakistan.

Do you want to know WHY your previous leadership didn't attack Pakistan after Mumbai? Not only was there zero evidence, they knew the consequences of such an action, something your current leadership may end up learning.

The previous leadership had a variety of options that they could exercise. They choose simply not to.
They could have launched a border war.
If that was difficult for them, then covert wars could have been launched.

The current Government of India would launch the second option as a minimum as has been announced by the NSA(Doval) as the preferred medium of retaliation against Pakistan.

Retaliation? No, this is aggression. Pakistan needs a peaceful border on it's east, so that it can concentrate on it's western border. Pakistan understands consequences, it's India that does not.

Aggression was the Pakistani citizens landing in Mumbai. Retaliation would be what follows in response.
You conveniently do not mention Pakistani actions and actors while labeling Indian ones as aggression. I have mentioned this to you before - you or Pakistan will not be allowed to set rules. India will retaliate at the time and place of its choosing. Pakistan can choose to call it what it will, India will put it out clearly as retaliation.

I have, and it's mostly for show. There is still very little substance.


Most of the disputes were under negotiations long before Modi came to power, he's just taking credit for it, as would any other politician, if they won.

Trade talks have also been on going for much longer than Modi, and would have happened regardless of Modi coming to power or not. It's also not a major game changer, not as much as you think. SA has economically been integrated closer, but politically, not much as really changed in reality.


You seem to have this idea that India is the only one growing it's influence.


Guess what, it doesn't matter. India has so far nothing substantial to show for it's efforts.

I am utterly amazed that you have conveniently labelled everything that has happened, breaking of barriers between South Asian countries, being called "historic" by 4 sovereign nations - India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan - as 'nothing substantial'

Perhaps you do know more than all these others.

And ofcourse trade talks and border talks have been going on for longer and infact been hanging fire for over 7 years in Parliament, but it took a GoI with Modi at the helm with his absolute majority in Parliament to be able to deliver on these issues is the real matter here. A fact appreciated by BB&N(countries).

All these nations are not just getting closer economically but also politically. Because politics is the foundation for such tight economic embraces. Which is why India agreed to compromise so much for Bangladesh and Nepal. That we have zero border disputes in land or sea(between India, Bangladesh and Myanmar) now after close to 70 years is the absolute bed rock on which this level of an economic embrace is predicated which entails free flow of people, goods and services.

You seem determined to refuse to give credit to the current Government of India even in the face of facts (both the ones that you are aware of and the ones that you are not but should be). Either ways, what matters for us in India and South Asia(barring Pakistan) is outcomes - and we are all delivering on those.

Pakistan does what is in it's interests, nothing more. The other SAARC members aren't rival's to India.


Afghanistan? Is that what you think Pakistan is only doing? Pakistan's army chief is in Russia, a former-cold war enemy. Pakistan's relations with the EU have grown, and is expanding it's trade relations with individual EU nations substantially. It's military relations with Sri Lanka and Myanmar (despite recent issues) are growing. It's relationship with Nepal is also set to grow, as there are intentions to increase trade... I could keep going, but there are a long of initiatives being taken to grow Pakistan's economy and geopolitical standing, and they're working.

This idea that Pakistan is being left behind is simply a myth, that's all it is, a myth. India is not the only nation in the world that is increase it's global influence. CPEC is going to increase Pakistan's geopolitical standing by a huge margin, connecting China and Central Asia to Europe and the middle east, turning Pakistan into an economic trade hub for global commerce.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I've already presented my point through a logical method, it's up to other people to decide if they believe me or you.

In case you do not know Pakistan's relationship with both Sri Lanka and Nepal are now stagnating from its high in mid 2000's. The trade is barely increasing.
That Sri Lanka and Nepal agreed to go on and form multilateral blocks while keeping Pakistan out is a sign of what is happening. Sri Lanka went ahead and removed Visa on arrival facility for Pakistan.

As far as Pakistan's growth is concerned, I'd prefer to deal with facts. Signed deals and investments instead of MoU's with China that seem to be available dime-a-dozen.

Pakistan's growth rate is a matter of public record, so is FDI in Pakistan (grand announcements of Investment from China and US notwithstanding). Investment portfolio: FDI shrinks to $803.2m in 11MFY15 - The Express Tribune
Frankly, you're doing nothing great in either of the places.

Keep the 'will turn into an economic hub' for other Pakistanis who get euphoric at announcements instead of reports released of actual investment and growth while the rest of South Asia forges ahead at over 6% growth rates without such grand announcements spanning so many years now!

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

1. It was an example, a hypothetical situation. You merely side stepped my point.

2. According to you.

Even civilian sats can be used offensively. It doesn't need to have a military side to be a threat. The fear of India cutting of access anytime it wants, that is the main concern, and it's a very legitimate concern, as India would have full control over the SAARC network. There are simply no safeguards in place to stop India from abusing it's access.


It's not about dependence, I don't think you quite grasped what I've said.



Again, you haven't quite grasped what I've said.


The fear is there, even if it isn't yet realized fully. An issue arises If India ever decides to expand on the project, or shut it down, it would have consequences for the region.

As far as my knowledge on satellite is , it is just a communication and meteorological satellite.

Why would these Indians use a low grade communication satellite to do offence against Pakistan, when they have more powerful spy satellites?

 

[That Guy]

As far as my knowledge on satellite is , it is just a communication and meteorological satellite.

Why would these Indians use a low grade communication satellite to do offence against Pakistan, when they have more powerful spy satellites?

I'm not saying it's logical, I'm simply repeating the general fear. The biggest fear is that India isn't being truthful about it's uses.

Again, slight handed attempts by Pakistanis to show others in equal light.

Pakistanis would indeed have a right to blame India for Peshawar when Indian citizens are the ones who are caught going around wielding AK-47's and their handlers sit in India directing the attacks.

Because such was the case in Mumbai. There was no 'intelligence' required to pin point Pakistan, they were there. It was Pakistanis going around the city slaughtering citizens while their handlers directed them from Karachi.

So as Pakistani citizens entered India to kill people, India as a State has to respond to Pakistan.

The previous leadership had a variety of options that they could exercise. They choose simply not to.
They could have launched a border war.
If that was difficult for them, then covert wars could have been launched.

The current Government of India would launch the second option as a minimum as has been announced by the NSA(Doval) as the preferred medium of retaliation against Pakistan.


Aggression was the Pakistani citizens landing in Mumbai. Retaliation would be what follows in response.
You conveniently do not mention Pakistani actions and actors while labeling Indian ones as aggression. I have mentioned this to you before - you or Pakistan will not be allowed to set rules. India will retaliate at the time and place of its choosing. Pakistan can choose to call it what it will, India will put it out clearly as retaliation.


I am utterly amazed that you have conveniently labelled everything that has happened, breaking of barriers between South Asian countries, being called "historic" by 4 sovereign nations - India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan - as 'nothing substantial'

Perhaps you do know more than all these others.

And ofcourse trade talks and border talks have been going on for longer and infact been hanging fire for over 7 years in Parliament, but it took a GoI with Modi at the helm with his absolute majority in Parliament to be able to deliver on these issues is the real matter here. A fact appreciated by BB&N(countries).

All these nations are not just getting closer economically but also politically. Because politics is the foundation for such tight economic embraces. Which is why India agreed to compromise so much for Bangladesh and Nepal. That we have zero border disputes in land or sea(between India, Bangladesh and Myanmar) now after close to 70 years is the absolute bed rock on which this level of an economic embrace is predicated which entails free flow of people, goods and services.

You seem determined to refuse to give credit to the current Government of India even in the face of facts (both the ones that you are aware of and the ones that you are not but should be). Either ways, what matters for us in India and South Asia(barring Pakistan) is outcomes - and we are all delivering on those.


In case you do not know Pakistan's relationship with both Sri Lanka and Nepal are now stagnating from its high in mid 2000's. The trade is barely increasing.
That Sri Lanka and Nepal agreed to go on and form multilateral blocks while keeping Pakistan out is a sign of what is happening. Sri Lanka went ahead and removed Visa on arrival facility for Pakistan.

As far as Pakistan's growth is concerned, I'd prefer to deal with facts. Signed deals and investments instead of MoU's with China that seem to be available dime-a-dozen.

Pakistan's growth rate is a matter of public record, so is FDI in Pakistan (grand announcements of Investment from China and US notwithstanding). Investment portfolio: FDI shrinks to $803.2m in 11MFY15 - The Express Tribune
Frankly, you're doing nothing great in either of the places.

Keep the 'will turn into an economic hub' for other Pakistanis who get euphoric at announcements instead of reports released of actual investment and growth while the rest of South Asia forges ahead at over 6% growth rates without such grand announcements spanning so many years now!

Ridiculous. You've just repeated your previous argument, and haven't brought anything new. I'm done here, I don't fee like repeating myself.

By the way, FDI isn't the sole, nor a very good indication of economic growth.

Why?
What exactly is Pakistan bringing to the table here ?

India is launching a communications satellite, mainly from its own pockets, for its neighbours.
So they don't have to pay heavy market price for using transponders of foreign satellites.

If Pakistan does not trust India...then it can simply continue with it current arrangement.

It is like feeding a homeless man..and homeless man asking..I will only take your food..if assure me that you will feed me for rest of my life, come what may

If the man has fed poison before, you'd be worried to.

Your example is poor. Geo-politically, it's clear to everyone what India would gain from Pakistan joining this project.