Pakistan to acquire three latest (conventional) subs

[HAIDER]

Pakistan to acquire three latest subs

* German, French companies to bid for contracts

* Subs to cost Pakistan Rs 77b

By Iqbal Khattak

PARIS: Pakistan will acquire three new advanced versions of conventional submarines to increase its naval capabilities to meet any challenges from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, a French Defence Ministry spokesman said.

The spokesman said that German and French companies would bid to win the contract for the three submarines, which were said to be the latest version of the Agosta submarines a French company recently built in Karachi, which India has already acquired. “We will offer (Pakistan) Marlin submarines to compete with the German bid for its U-212 submarines,” Jean-Francois Bureau, the French Defence Ministry spokesman in Paris, told Daily Times late Tuesday evening. Pakistan will need to pay around one billion euros or Rs 77 billion for the three non-nuclear submarines. The quest for new submarines comes after India reached a 1.5 billion euro deal last year with a French company for seven Scorpion submarines – even more recent than the Agosta submarines that Pakistan built last year in Karachi under licence from a French company.

But even with the Marlin or U-212 submarines, the Pakistan Navy will lag behind the Indians, as the Scorpion submarines are believed to be technologically superior.

France-Pakistan defence relations improved after the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but received a serious setback in 2002 when 11 French engineers were killed in a suicide attack near the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi.

But military relations between Pakistan and France resumed after the attack on the French engineers, the French Defence Ministry spokesman said after a briefing to a group of visiting journalists from Pakistan. France does not sell nuclear-powered submarines “as a matter of policy” said the spokesman to dispel the impression that the new submarines could carry nuclear weapons. He said the “question of regional stability” was the criterion for selling French-made weapons to countries around the world, hoping Pakistan and India would stay away from the arms race.

The Scorpion subs are technologically superior to the Agosta, Marlin and U-212 submarines. However, Scorpion subs cannot carry nuclear weapons and India will not get them before 2016.If the French company wins the bid, Pakistan will have to wait for eight years before getting the submarines, the spokesman added.

Jean-Francois Bureau said senior Pakistani and French military officials would meet January next year in either Paris or Islamabad to strengthen relations between the two armies.He said there was potential for the two armies to strengthen relations and did not rule out joint military exercises in future saying, “We are not against joint exercises with Pakistan.” The spokesman said that France was helping Pakistan upgrade its Mirage fighters in Kamra near Islamabad and a Pakistan army officer was attending courses at a French staff college.
France and Pakistan in talks over New Subs.

Islamabad Wants U.S. Harpoon Missiles To Arm Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.

But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile maker MBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.

Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected. “It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.

A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.

Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.

In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale. “It’s good news,” he said.

Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment

Obstacles

Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.

Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.

Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.

Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.

Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.

These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.

But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.

“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.” Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.

One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006/11/09/story_9-11-2006_pg7_11

 

[Contrarian]

Old article. Has there been any development since??

 

[Neo]

Old article indeed, its been discussed already. We're in final stage of negotiations with the Germans, a deal should be signed this year.

 

[Contrarian]

Well, glad to see there has been progress.

 

[Neo]

Well, glad to see there has been progress.

Yep, the model was at display during IDEAS, PN officials were reported saying that the deal is in final stage. :thumbsup:

 

[HAIDER]

Am sorry guys its old, but find some new info in this article..

 

[zpak]

Why are we buying the Marlins or the German boats if they are technologically inferior to the Scorpenes? And it seems they're worth exactly the same.

 

[Contrarian]

Marlins are supposed to be 1 version above Scorpene. There is not much of a difference betwee Scorpene and Marlin, as Marlin is said to be predecessor to the Barraccuda. And thus there is limitations on what Marlin can do above Scorpene. No Marlin has ever been built, its a deisgn. No country has ordered it. Pakistan will be the first if she choses Marlin. So no confirmation of any sort as to how it will perform. Like i said, its hard to say anything, for its never been built.

U-214 is indeed a splendid machine. Its very quiet. A true hunter killer sub. And i believe it offers the fuel cell tech which is much superior to the Mesma AIP offered by France.
I think it will be a folly for Pakistan to go with Marlins. They should go with the U-214. Its an internationally acclaimed sub.

 

[falcone]

So, does the fuel cell allow the U-214 boats to stay underwater longer (if so, why)?

 

[kidwaibhai]

i think pakistan should by more of these subs and cuaz we cant india ship to ship so subs is a good idea. hey does any body wether pakistan is looking for nuke subs i think they would be a much better option

 

[Contrarian]

i think pakistan should by more of these subs and cuaz we cant india ship to ship so subs is a good idea. hey does any body wether pakistan is looking for nuke subs i think they would be a much better option

India is also buying loads of subs

 

[Adux]

India is also buying loads of subs

And I hope they dont go for the Amur when there are other options available

 

[falcone]

Originally posted by kidwaibhai
i think pakistan should by more of these subs and cuaz we cant india ship to ship so subs is a good idea. hey does any body wether pakistan is looking for nuke subs i think they would be a much better option

There have been rumors that Pakistan is looking for nuclear subs, but that particular option is somewhat farther down the road for now. The Pakistan Navy is presently trying to strengthen its conventional sub force (and the PN should do this before it decides to buy nuclear subs).

 

[Adux]

There have been rumors that Pakistan is looking for nuclear subs, but that particular option is somewhat farther down the road for now. The Pakistan Navy is presently trying to strengthen its conventional sub force (and the PN should do this before it decides to buy nuclear subs).

A country which hasnt even built its own nuclear reactor? I dont think so. Making a ordinary reactor is one thing,making a sub-reacter another.
You cant loan it from China cuz they dont have enough to meet their requirements. you have a good chance of acquiring U-214 or the Marlins.

 

[Contrarian]

And I hope they dont go for the Amur when there are other options available

Why? We will get the Amur 1650 or something like that, and not the Amur 850 or something like that. The first one is the main Russian Amur, the second one is sthe crappy export version. Amur is pretty good, has Russian AIP, fi bought will be fitted with BrahMos. Its an excellent sub, very quiet.

Why dont you wanna go with Amur?